HarleyTechTalk

Am wanting to ID some frames and don't want to rely on frame numbers being necessarily correct or present. Have been doing some research.

what I think I know...
There's a number on the top engine mount, just couple of digits giving date.
Steering head lock changed '68
Something about the seatpost area changed for starter motor.

Thinking logically, there must be a number of small changes when you consider the different carbs fitted and the fact AMF came along through the period.

Please throw some light onto the topic. Thanks

Big change in the seat post and swing arm area 1973 when disk brakes were introduced

If it is a panhead, swingarm frame with the drop seat, it is Feb '61. If it is not drop seat, Feb '71 & up shovelhead frame. '71 will have some 66 casting numbers.

Thanks for the thoughts.

Early indications is frames are swingarm, so that means '58 on. Dream come true if they're Pan. More likely to be Shovel given how rare Pans are around here.

Frame casting numbers is a great idea. I have a Pan and a Shovel so will check what each of mine have and familiarize myself with what to expect. Read where Pans have cast number 47004-58 and Shovels 47004-65 till '77. Thinking this through, the last Pan will also have 47004-65 Is this right?

H-D BT frame date codes consist of one letter and one number. Letters A thru L indicate month of manufacture Jan thru Dec. (The letter I was not skipped in frame date codes.) The number indicates year of manufacture depending on type of frame.

H-D BT swingarm frames had their date code on the R-H side of the top engine mount thru at least April 73. I don't know exactly when it shifted to the left side but it was there for Oct 74. However, by as early as Feb 76 it was stamped lower down, near the bolt hole.

H-D BT steering head for 58–59 could have forging number XE-35F or 47591-35. Forging number 47591-35 was again used for 60 thru about mid-68 (?). About late-68 (?) the forging number became 47591-35A. Steering heads also have a forging hallmark and a forging die number.     

Quote: 'Steering head lock changed '68'
The steering head lock remained in use thru 68. Late-68s also had an unmachined boss in readiness for a padlock hole which was introduced as of 69 models. For 69-later Shovels the steering head lock boss remained although it was not machined.

Left side of the BT steering head had an additional original component identifying number for 62–69. For example A1234. It's often referred to as a security code or anti-theft number and it was also on some, but not all, 70 frames even though 70 models had a VIN. The additional ID is stamped on but the characters are only about 1/8" tall and sometimes not easy to see. They may be impossible to read if a frame has been powdercoated. 
NB: it's possible some 61 model Pan frames also had this additional ID. 
NB: late-69 Shovel frames had a VIN boss although it was not stamped as original.
NB: some 70–71 Shovel frames have no VIN boss and their VIN is stamped further forward than usual.

Another post to follow.
Eric

Upper rear forgings for 58–64 had their number applied in at least two formats: 476 45 58 and 47645-58. Here's the 58–64 style of forging.   






As of 65 models the front of the forging was straightened to allow more room for the new battery, oil tank, electric starter and aluminium primary covers. Frame below is a 65 model. Forging number became 47645-65.






Around 73–74 the upper rear forging number changed to 47645-65Y and sometimes it was applied as 47645-65-Y.

Lower left rear forging number was 47653-58 for 58 thru about early-70. Around mid/later-70 it changed to 47654 65. I do not know why the suffix was 65 as opposed to 70 but that is what happened. About mid-73 the forging number became 47654-73. At some later stage it changed to 47654-73A.

Lower R-H rear forging number was 47651-58 for 58 thru early-73. About mid-73 it became 47652-73.

Around mid/later-68 the factory added a gusset plate to the front of the left rear downtube. The gusset was also available as repair part #47261-68 for frames back thru 58. Some people even made their own.
 
NB: there are several more things to look for when trying to identify Pan swingarm frames and Shovel frames. If you post photos we may be able to help ID what you have.

Quote: 'Read where Pans have cast number 47004-58 and Shovels 47004-65 till '77.'
Pan frames for 58 may have used part number 47004-58, not cast(ing) number.

Where did you read the number for Shovels?
Eric

Quote from: Speeding Big Twin on August 17, 2021, 08:58:15 PM
Quote: 'Read where Pans have cast number 47004-58 and Shovels 47004-65 till '77.'
Pan frames for 58 may have used part number 47004-58, not cast(ing) number.
Where did you read the number for Shovels?
Eric

Eric, thanks, your summary is so awesome. I'm learning heaps and as an exercise in familiarizing myself, I checked out both my Pan and Shovel casting numbers.

Where did I get the casting number for Shovels? I found it posted on this 7 year old thread titled How to identify a Harley frame.

If I end up scoring any frames, I'll post pics. Hopefully it isn't a wild goose chase.

Thanks!

You're welcome. Number 47004-65 is intriguing. My 58–68 H-D catalog has part number #47003-65 (not #47004-65) available for use for 65–68 models but the catalog was issued July 67 so it would have been before they added gusset plate #47261-68 to frames as original.

My 61–71 H-D catalog has part number #47004-65D available for use for 65–71 models.

Palmer refers to five frame part numbers beginning with 47003 including #47003-65. But he seems to have missed one and I'm not sure if they should have all started with 47003 or 47004 anyway.     

My two later catalogs (41–84 FL and 71–84 FX) aren't much help for obvious reasons and they have frame part numbers beginning with 47000, 47013 and 47015.
   

Something else to look for is the shape of the top engine mount and its bolt hole. For Pan swingarm frames 58–65 and Shovel frames 66 thru early-69 the mount was like this.






But around mid-69 it changed.
Eric

Speeding Big Twin, excellent information, appreciated.

Finally went to see the frames hoping for an early BT but alas there was only a pile of Ironhead stuff. Turned out to be '69 engine remains with '70 frame. 80% complete. I saved it.
[attach=0]