HarleyTechTalk

Quite recently the price of the 82" V-twin replica became a lot more affordable so I'm thinking of putting one in a '83 Shovelhead rolling chassis. It has open belt primary. I'd like to run a SU carb.
V-Twin #10-1425 $5,469.99
I seem to recall hearing there's a difference in 4speed trans shaft lengths between early and late. What do I need to know?
Looking around I can't find specs for this engine. Even V-twin's site isn't currently very helpful. I seem to remember their motors have S&S cases, oil pump etc.
Who's run one? What fits? What are the pitfalls?
Thanks for any help.

Pan Heads will have the shortest mainshaft.

I have zero experience with a Tedd Cycle motor. And I'll only go as far to say I never will have experience with a Tedd Cycle motor.

Thanks Ohio HD, that solves what mainshaft I have. Great illustration. Mine must be the 12.470.

What varies on the engine to suit? Is it shaft length or sprocket/pulley variation?  I could picture my pulley if it helps?

BTW, I'd buy an OEM Pan engine if there was one. Unfortunately there's never been a Pan engine come onto the open market here (NZ) in the last 10 years. Shovel, Evo, 45 or J engines yes, but no Pans. If I want one, it needs to come in from overseas.

My wishlist for the engine is overhead oilers, Y intake, bolt up exhaust.. I may have to be realistic and pragmatic about it all but first I want to understand what will actually bolt in and fit.

Appreciate any help. Please comment, thanks.

FYI if you aren't aware. S&S sells repop pan engines. Even ones to fit a later chassis as you're wanting to do. This page
Of course more money than the Tedd V Twin ones. But probably way better quality.

Your wish list sounds like STD shovel ported pan heads, they work good.  Accurate Engineering in Dothan, Alabama used to make some interesting Pan motors, they are still in business working with older engines but may still build an engine.  A decent shop should be able to put an engine together with quality aftermarket parts if you can't find good OEM stuff.  Good luck.

Thanks Cheech, nice site. I notice they aren't doing long blocks. I already have my carb sorted out, a SU. Same as what I run on my '61 Pan.

Thanks Drifter, yes STD Shovel ported Pan heads would be just the ticket. I run STD heads on my '61 Pan though stock T intake, so I vouch for their quality. Yes have seen the Accurate stuff around. Currently their site is down. A build from aftermarket parts is a possibility and it's one I could do myself though typically it works out more expensive. I do like the idea of building it myself, it has quite a bit of appeal.

Studying the fit, ideal looks to be an alternator style of engine. I expect therefore the shaft is longer to accommodate? What isn't clear is whether the early engines will fit if modified? I mean should an early Pan engine turn up, do I fit a longer shaft? Primary will be open belt.

Thanks.

The early pan is the shortest transmission shaft and a four speed case for tin primaries.  The next longest transmission shaft is the 4 speed case with ears to aluminum primary but generator engine (65 to 69 - incl first 3 years slabside shovel).  The longer shafts are alternator.  The transmission and engine shafts are mated to those versions and inner primary.  Ohio's chart shows the transitions.

KD, thanks for commenting.

Another query came up. Apparently some BT engines don't fit in Shovel chassis. Is it just Evo engines that need the top tube or seat post tweaked? Will a Pan, any Pan fit?

Thanks.

Excalibur
I'm running a 88" Pan in my 1981 FXE rolling chassis, I've had the heads and cylinders off and on three times in the last 6 weeks, everything fits.  The engine presently is: S&S Super crankcases, 3 5/8" cylinders, con rods, pistons; STD shovel ported Pan heads; 4 1/4 stroke T&O heavy flywheels; Andrews #6 cam; S&S Super E carb with Thunderjet; 3" open belt drive and a 1959 4 speed trans.  When I got it in 1998 it had 1948 (maybe) left case and 1950 something right case with 1949 heads, they were changed when the cost of fixing them was more then replacing them. 

I have a 98" Pan with STD Heads, S&S cases, 2" open belt, rigid high-neck frame.
I have a 10" over Duece front end on it, but to complete this project the way I want, I am going to have a Sugar Bear front end next year.

   What I've being told that should handle like a dream. I wounder if that's true.

Thanks for joining in the conversation. Am learning heaps. Spending quite a bit of time studying so that when the time comes I know exactly what I need and the best way of going about it.

Drifter, I know what you mean about the cost of fixing old parts vs new ones. That's precisely why I'd coughed up for STD heads. My old '61 originals were fixable but I would have had to pay up and they might still have turned to custard. I'll never know because I sold them to a guy wanting OEM to restore.

So, it looks like the ideal way to go is an alternator style motor. This will give the correct primary alignment for my trans mainshaft.
To go with OEM Pan engine, the trans mainshaft would need to be changed. Not beyond the realms of possibility I suppose..

Thanks!

It's been suggested, why not use a Shovel left case and a Pan right case?
Does this combination bolt up? and what other parts need be used to facilitate such a marriage?
Thanks.

So, various study sessions over marrying alt Shovel left case with Pan right case shows it's possible. Three things came up.
1/. Engine mounts probably need decking.
2/. Cylinder mouths probably need decking.
3/. Main bearing needs line lapping.

1 & 2 I could possibly do these on our mill. #3 requires more study.

In any case, am in a much better situation to consider such a prospect should the opportunity present itself. I'd be having a proper close look at the time, energy, effort and cost. Too easy to get carried away...

I did a dual belt drive (primary & final) Panhead years ago. Mated a 62 right hand case to a 70 left Shovel alt. case. In 1970 when HD went to the cone nose motor they punched the numbers in front of the cam cover, and that year only had a number block by the timing hole, with no numbers. Being in the old days HD punched the numbers by hand with machine stamps, stamp your legal number and go. Cases should be line bored. 

Thanks for the help. Ahh yes, of course. I hadn't given numbers much thought.

Seems like you are going to a lot of trouble and expense with the engine to avoid changing the transmission mainshaft. 

Quote from: drifter on July 05, 2020, 11:25:11 PM
Seems like you are going to a lot of trouble and expense with the engine to avoid changing the transmission mainshaft.

Maybe so, but I've run into a lot on generator problems over the years, so if it were my motor I would defiantly think hard

Quote from: crock on July 06, 2020, 04:19:00 AM

Quote from: drifter on July 05, 2020, 11:25:11 PM
Seems like you are going to a lot of trouble and expense with the engine to avoid changing the transmission mainshaft.

Maybe so, but I've run into a lot on generator problems over the years, so if it were my motor I would defiantly think hard

There is an abundance of 12V generators out there.  The Sporty is a direct swap.  For those concerned with vibration, it's usually mechanical regulators that suffer, so change it out for a solid state unit and done.

The transmission shaft is a 5 year window but not impossible to find. 

Thanks for the replies, much appreciated.

I should say, I don't have any engine at the moment. I need to be receptive to what turns up because Pans stuff is rare. On the contrary, there's a good chance of finding Shovel parts, cylinders, cranks etc.

As I see it,
...if I find an early Pan engine or equivalent repop V-twin, I need the short gearbox mainshaft.
...if I find a '65 - '69, I use the appropriate gearbox mainshaft. S&S make a Pan top end kit that fits Shovel cylinders.
... if I find a Shovel left case or the V-twin alternator engine, I use the existing mainshaft.

Re alternators, there's a small unit to fit pre '69 BT on Ebay and elsewhere. Comes with solid state reg. It's a very nice looking item and well priced. This would be a nice upgrade. Anyone using?
Actually on the shelf I have a 6v genny and a 12v Hitachi? Sportster genny. I heard the later can foul the engine cases?

I ran the 12V Sportster generator and a solid state regulator for years on a slabside set-up without issue.  It spent A LOT of time at the top RPM too.

All good info, thanks.

I read the Hitachi 65B is slightly bigger in diameter and I saw a '50 Pan crankcase that was relieved to fit it. The next time my CE genny is off my '61 Pan, I'm going to test fit my 65B. In any case, it's good pieces of the puzzle and when I'm looking at parts, I'll be in a much better position to evaluate the pieces on the spot.

Ok, so this Ebay offering looks like it might be a good fit for my '83 frame.

My assumptions:

I've got a Y intake manifold.
3-bolt exhaust I can make.
Can run my existing Shovel alternator.
Mainshaft length is right.
Engine fits under backbone with no notching.
Can run my existing open primary/belt drive.
Mounts top and bottom are same.
Modest compression so regular gas OK.
Dual plug STD heads are top quality.

Be great to confirm my assumptions. What have I missed? Would like this motor but taking a moment to properly check the details.
Thanks for any thoughts

Nice looking engine.  I guess my eyes are worse than I thought.  I read the description, but I can't see three bolt holes in the exhaust or the second spark plug opening on the right side.  I would be concerned that the builders name is not mentioned and that he seems to have a supply of them available, that may not be a concern.  I have dual plug STD shovel ported heads on my pan, those look more like 64/65 Harley head replicas with shovel head intake and exhaust outlets.  The devil is in the details, I would look closer before sending money.  Good luck.

Thanks Drifter. Yes, dual spark was on my list of queries to seller. Additionally when I check the "location" number it hits on V-twin single plug heads. Could be a generic pic I suppose. Mistakes don't exactly inspire confidence...