2001 FLHT stock cams and push rods. Running Liqui Moly 10 - 60 Very recent oil and filter change.
I replaced my lifters 2,500 mi ago this past winter with Hylft Johnson 2313 S lifters.
The only reason I changed them was I had a lot of miles on the old ones.
I primed them and left them submerged in oil until i was ready to install.
Faced all the oil holes inboard as that's the direction my old lifters were facing.
The issue I have is if the bike sits for more than 4 or 5 days one of them is bleeding down big time.
Sounds like a hammer beating on a cast iron frying pan. Just started doing this the past 3 0r 4 start ups after sitting a bit.
Here's my Questions..
If I remove the spark plugs and rotate the engine via the rear wheel after the bike has sat for a week or so what are the odds I will be able to find the lifter that is bleeding down ?
I really can't determine if it's front or rear cylinder by listening, it hammers less than 2 or 3 seconds and pumps up. That's the only time it hammers, start up after 4 or 5 days.
My second though is just order another set of lifters and replace them all again...?
I know there was a lifter shortage a while back. Maybe there still is ?
I'd just order another set. Short of debris of some kind in One of the lifter, the rest are prolly not far behind in going south. Plus you get peace of mind.
Quote from: Propflux01 on October 07, 2020, 06:58:46 AM
I'd just order another set. Short of debris of some kind in One of the lifter, the rest are prolly not far behind in going south. Plus you get peace of mind.
You are probably right.. I don't know that I can buy one lifter anyway.. Sure didn't expect failure at 2,500 mi though.
Quote from: Propflux01 on October 07, 2020, 06:58:46 AM
I'd just order another set. Short of debris of some kind in One of the lifter, the rest are prolly not far behind in going south. Plus you get peace of mind.
I'd really doubt that any of them are going south with 2500 mi on them! :emoGroan:
More than likely a bit of debris in one of them. Pumping up in 2-3 seconds after sitting a week is not something to be worrying about But the idea of checking cold is feasible to find the culprit.
Not any part is perfect all the time despite QC.
Quote from: koko3052 on October 07, 2020, 07:47:20 AM
Quote from: Propflux01 on October 07, 2020, 06:58:46 AM
I'd just order another set. Short of debris of some kind in One of the lifter, the rest are prolly not far behind in going south. Plus you get peace of mind.
I'd really doubt that any of them are going south with 2500 mi on them! :emoGroan:
More than likely a bit of debris in one of them. Pumping up in 2-3 seconds after sitting a week is not something to be worrying about But the idea of checking cold is feasible to find the culprit.
koko
Agree it may be dirt.
motorhogman
Winter is coming, you may as well wait and then take them out, take them apart on clean white rags. See if you can find some debris / dirt, etc.
A great motorcycle builder (Rigidthumper) once told me: "Lifters, the worlds most perfect oil filter!"
Any hyd lifter will bleed down after a few minutes of sitting, if the cam lobe is up when you shut it off. The problem is one isn't pumping back up instantly. I like and run the same brand of lifter, but the last set I got had one with a sticky plunger and the set before that had one with a jinked up clip. I install travel limiters, so the problems were found when installing those.
Quote from: koko3052 on October 07, 2020, 07:47:20 AM
Quote from: Propflux01 on October 07, 2020, 06:58:46 AM
I'd just order another set. Short of debris of some kind in One of the lifter, the rest are prolly not far behind in going south. Plus you get peace of mind.
I'd really doubt that any of them are going south with 2500 mi on them! :emoGroan:
More than likely a bit of debris in one of them. Pumping up in 2-3 seconds after sitting a week is not something to be worrying about But the idea of checking cold is feasible to find the culprit.
Thanks.. I would highly doubt they are all going South as well... 2500 mi and probably haven't seen 4000 rpm. Oh wait.. They have gone South.. I'm in South Carolina...The thing that bothers me is how far it must be bleeding down LOUD as it is and I'm not believing in coincidences here so I don't think the engine always shuts down with that lifter with the cam lobe up..
Quote from: HD Street Performance on October 07, 2020, 07:54:35 AM
Not any part is perfect all the time despite QC.
No doubt about that..
Quote from: Ohio HD on October 07, 2020, 08:09:52 AM
Quote from: koko3052 on October 07, 2020, 07:47:20 AM
Quote from: Propflux01 on October 07, 2020, 06:58:46 AM
I'd just order another set. Short of debris of some kind in One of the lifter, the rest are prolly not far behind in going south. Plus you get peace of mind.
I'd really doubt that any of them are going south with 2500 mi on them! :emoGroan:
More than likely a bit of debris in one of them. Pumping up in 2-3 seconds after sitting a week is not something to be worrying about But the idea of checking cold is feasible to find the culprit.
koko
Agree it may be dirt.
motorhogman
Winter is coming, you may as well wait and then take them out, take them apart on clean white rags. See if you can find some debris / dirt, etc.
A great motorcycle builder (Rigidthumper) once told me: "Lifters, the worlds most perfect oil filter!"
thanks
LOL @ "Lifters, the worlds most perfect oil filter!"
Don't have much winter here in SC.. last year we had little to none..
next stretch i get of it sitting for more than 5 or 6 days I may just lift the push rod tubes and see what I find..
only two days with a chance of rain in the ten day.. Not sure when that will happen.
Quote from: harpwrench on October 07, 2020, 08:21:24 AM
Any hyd lifter will bleed down after a few minutes of sitting, if the cam lobe is up when you shut it off. The problem is one isn't pumping back up instantly. I like and run the same brand of lifter, but the last set I got had one with a sticky plunger and the set before that had one with a jinked up clip. I install travel limiters, so the problems were found when installing those.
thanx,
I understand what you are saying.. I've had lifters that bled down some in the past..Little clicking..Never had one CLACK this loud though..This is the 4th set of lifters if I remember right on this bike in 115,000 mi. 20 years.
Interesting, I'm still running the same set of B lifters that went in 90,000 miles ago, and ridden as hard as anyone can. Just lucky I guess.
Quote from: Hossamania on October 07, 2020, 10:23:56 AM
Interesting, I'm still running the same set of B lifters that went in 90,000 miles ago, and ridden as hard as anyone can. Just lucky I guess.
Hoss, I changed them because they had about 60,000 mi on them.. They never leaked down like this even if the bike sat for 2 or 3 weeks. I was concerned about the rollers exploding. seen the destructive results of that on a shovel head before.
I might be off by one set.. I can account for two sets before these as I still have the old ones.... seems long ago when the bike was less than a year old they were replaced under warranty. or maybe just one of them was... Old brain matter.... almost 20 years ago...lol..
Quote from: HD Street Performance on October 07, 2020, 07:54:35 AM
Not any part is perfect all the time despite QC.
correct, and short of debris, he could have got one that "slipped through the cracks". Removing and inspecting is the only sure bet, but I am also betting a replacement is in order.
How quick they equalize when adjusting pushrods when filled with oil is a crude indication.
Maybe an intake/exhaust pushrod are swapped?
Any lifter exposed to the load of the valve spring will bleed down in a few minutes. It's how fast it pumps up determines how much you will hear it. If it bled down but no oil present, they will clack for a while, since it will gulp air. Might not be the lifter but lack of oil in the galley for it to suck up when it extends. One of the important reasons to have a ADV in the oil filters.
Ron
Why not wiggle the pushrods when cold and on the base circle. Check and more than likely the one that wiggles, is loose, change that lifter out with a new one. Like I said they are all not perfect.
I have heard the original lifters in the twin cam (before the b series) were made by Johnson. They were in my 99 when new and did this from day one until they were replaced with the B lifters. As long as it goes away in a few seconds I wouldn't worry about it. I have heard lots of cars do this too.
Quote from: HD Street Performance on October 07, 2020, 05:15:16 PM
Why not wiggle the pushrods when cold and on the base circle. Check and more than likely the one that wiggles, is loose, change that lifter out with a new one. Like I said they are all not perfect.
:agree:
Playing eenie meenie miney moe isnt a good way to sort this out.
Set of new ones are how much $$ ?
Piece of mind is priceless.
Rob
After sitting for however long it takes for this to happen, pop the clips and slide the tubes up- can you push down on any of the pushrods (enough to see the lifter cup depress)? Any cup that can be depressed with finger pressure is suspect.
Bingo! :up: :up:
Quote from: rbabos on October 07, 2020, 04:29:04 PM
Any lifter exposed to the load of the valve spring will bleed down in a few minutes. It's how fast it pumps up determines how much you will hear it. If it bled down but no oil present, they will clack for a while, since it will gulp air. Might not be the lifter but lack of oil in the galley for it to suck up when it extends. One of the important reasons to have a ADV in the oil filters.
Ron
thanx
I believe the wix 57148 filter has a ADV in it.. I've heard lots of HD lifters clack a bit after sitting. This is much louder..Never did this before regardless of how long it sat. Even for a month.. Oil pressure is good.. I really think it's a bad, lifter or possibly debris..
Trying to determine if the oil galley is supplying oil might be a bit of a challenge..
Quote from: HD Street Performance on October 07, 2020, 12:10:05 PM
How quick they equalize when adjusting pushrods when filled with oil is a crude indication.
Stock push rods.
Quote from: harpwrench on October 07, 2020, 03:37:22 PM
Maybe an intake/exhaust pushrod are swapped?
Definitely not.. I did that once before.. This bike runs great. I mean for a stock little 88 incher. I replaced these lifters in January.
Quote from: HD Street Performance on October 07, 2020, 05:15:16 PM
Why not wiggle the pushrods when cold and on the base circle. Check and more than likely the one that wiggles, is loose, change that lifter out with a new one. Like I said they are all not perfect.
That's what I'll do next time she sits for a week. thanx
For the cost of a filter, have you considered changing it and cutting the present one open to see if there is some metal showing up? If it's debris from wear there's a good chance it may show up in the pleats too.
Quote from: smoserx1 on October 07, 2020, 06:12:29 PM
I have heard the original lifters in the twin cam (before the b series) were made by Johnson. They were in my 99 when new and did this from day one until they were replaced with the B lifters. As long as it goes away in a few seconds I wouldn't worry about it. I have heard lots of cars do this too.
Mine were replaced by the dealer when the bike was very new.. less than 10,000 mi. I had it in for a leaky shock if I recall and they called me and said when they started it the lifters were clacking pretty good and they were going to change them on warranty. I have no idea what they replaced them with..Actually can't recall if it was 1 lifter or all....To long ago
Quote from: CndUltra88 on October 08, 2020, 07:23:44 AM
Playing eenie meenie miney moe isnt a good way to sort this out.
Set of new ones are how much $$ ?
Piece of mind is priceless.
Rob
Not that much... But I just replaced them.. only 2500 mi ago..
My thinking is if I do find something mechanically wrong I will replace them all...First I want to eliminate the possibility of debris being the problem.
Quote from: rigidthumper on October 08, 2020, 08:27:06 AM
After sitting for however long it takes for this to happen, pop the clips and slide the tubes up- can you push down on any of the pushrods (enough to see the lifter cup depress)? Any cup that can be depressed with finger pressure is suspect.
Yes sir. that will be my approach TY
Quote from: kd on October 08, 2020, 10:42:01 AM
For the cost of a filter, have you considered changing it and cutting the present one open to see if there is some metal showing up? If it's debris from wear there's a good chance it may show up in the pleats too.
Thanx KD
I just did that about 200 mi ago when I changed the oil. Filter pleats were clean. It was doing this before the oil and filter change. I always open my filters up..
I learned that on here a while back.. That's what got me to change my tensioner pads after only 7000 mi a while back.. Most people that looked at the pics of my tensioners said they would run them.. Had it apart so I changed then any way..
Quote from: motorhogman on October 07, 2020, 06:33:45 AM
2001 FLHT stock cams and push rods. Running Liqui Moly 10 - 60 Very recent oil and filter change.
I replaced my lifters 2,500 mi ago this past winter with Hylft Johnson 2313 S lifters.
The issue I have is if the bike sits for more than 4 or 5 days one of them is bleeding down big time.
Here's my observations. 10-60 oil is a little lighter than 20-50, so it may leak past easier. I'm not sure it's adequate for bottom end bearings as a side note.
V2313-S is a performance lifter for high lift cams, but I'm unsure that has any impact.
Stock pushrods are fine for stock valve train components. If I remember correctly, Johnson said in their instructions that stock pushrods are fine with their stock lifters. I disagree with this, since the Johnsons are not factory, they would require different and specific adjustment.
I'm not a factory trained Harley Master mechanic, so these comments are just my opinion.
Quote from: JohnnyCashPan on October 09, 2020, 07:25:47 AM
Quote from: motorhogman on October 07, 2020, 06:33:45 AM
2001 FLHT stock cams and push rods. Running Liqui Moly 10 - 60 Very recent oil and filter change.
I replaced my lifters 2,500 mi ago this past winter with Hylft Johnson 2313 S lifters.
The issue I have is if the bike sits for more than 4 or 5 days one of them is bleeding down big time.
Here's my observations. 10-60 oil is a little lighter than 20-50, so it may leak past easier. I'm not sure it's adequate for bottom end bearings as a side note.
V2313-S is a performance lifter for high lift cams, but I'm unsure that has any impact.
Stock pushrods are fine for stock valve train components. If I remember correctly, Johnson said in their instructions that stock pushrods are fine with their stock lifters. I disagree with this, since the Johnsons are not factory, they would require different and specific adjustment.
I'm not a factory trained Harley Master mechanic, so these comments are just my opinion.
I don't think it's the the oil. I'd guess that all the lifters would be clacking if it was an oil viscosity issue ? Been running the Liqui Moly now for the past 3 or 4 changes. 15,000 mi or more with no noises. ( ok..just normal noises LOL) OP gauge actually runs a tick higher at 3000 rpm than it did with amsoil, quick silver or HD 20 50.. on a 90 degree day.
There are lots of TC riders using 10 60 without any issues on here.
I'm gonna go with the application being a non issue. I asked for lifters for a stock TC 88 and a very reliable vendor on here supplied them. Total faith in his knowledge. There is no V on the PN # just 2313 S
What I'm looking for and expect to find when I do.. A defective lifter.. or debris stuck in a lifter..
Time will tell.. Just need to stay off the bike for a week.. Then start by lifting the push rod tubes for an inspection.. Nothing obvious, then off come the rocker covers and out come the lifters for a white rag disassemble...
This is some of our best riding weather in SC so it may be a while before i get to it..
I will post what I find when I get there.
Update:
Went out this am pulled the push rod clips and check for any looseness while pushing the push rods down into the lifters..
Cleaned the oil off and had a good grip with a rag..
2 were on base circle and no way were they going to push down.. I could turn them with some resistance.
2 had some cam lift on them, same result Couldn't push them down or turn them..
Started the bike up and two real quick hammer on a cast iron frying pan BANGS and them norm.
I couldn't tell which one it was even with my head right down there with PR tubes suspended with rubber bands.. Just happens to quick..
I know I could remove them all and take them apart to check for debris... I doubt if I'd find any..
I'm about ready to just order a set of S&S lifters.
That noise irritates me GREATLY..
UPDATE:
Took the lifters out.. Disassembled on a white rag.. I see no debris. Just clean oil.
Don't know what else to do other than replace them..
Lifters will drive you nutz. 3 years ago I had my cam shoe's checked. My bike was all stock with 65k on the motor, never apart. I never had a lifter bleed down or make any strange noise. After having the shoes replaced, I had the guy throw a set of 203 cams in it ,with a new set of SE lifters, and adjustable push rods . Everything was fine until a few months later. I stated it up one morning and a lifter started hammering for about 2 minutes, then quieted up. Every couple of months it did that . Didn't matter how long it sat, somethings only a week would pass, and it would do it. It sat for 2 1/2/ months when I had my knee replaced, and when I started it it didn't make a sound . As far as being loud when running, My thought on that is, I never weighed the stock push rods and compared them to the new adjustable's. I know steel and other metals expand at different rates when they get heated up. And my thought is maybe the push rods don't expand as much as the cylinders and heads do, and that actually makes the rods a bit looser then they need to be. And if a lifter had head spring pressure on it when the motor is shut off, it pushes the oil out so next start up, it's dry. Again my thought is the head and cylinder contract at a different rate then the push rod materiel does. I know there's alot of guys who complain about noise they have now, that they didn't have before they did that simple motor work. Most keep changing parts until they give up and sell the bike. There's gotta be a reason for everything.,,,
Quote from: Big Cahuna on October 26, 2020, 09:15:20 AM
Lifters will drive you nutz. 3 years ago I had my cam shoe's checked. My bike was all stock with 65k on the motor, never apart. I never had a lifter bleed down or make any strange noise. After having the shoes replaced, I had the guy throw a set of 203 cams in it ,with a new set of SE lifters, and adjustable push rods . Everything was fine until a few months later. I stated it up one morning and a lifter started hammering for about 2 minutes, then quieted up. Every couple of months it did that . Didn't matter how long it sat, somethings only a week would pass, and it would do it. It sat for 2 1/2/ months when I had my knee replaced, and when I started it it didn't make a sound . As far as being loud when running, My thought on that is, I never weighed the stock push rods and compared them to the new adjustable's. I know steel and other metals expand at different rates when they get heated up. And my thought is maybe the push rods don't expand as much as the cylinders and heads do, and that actually makes the rods a bit looser then they need to be. And if a lifter had head spring pressure on it when the motor is shut off, it pushes the oil out so next start up, it's dry. Again my thought is the head and cylinder contract at a different rate then the push rod materiel does. I know there's alot of guys who complain about noise they have now, that they didn't have before they did that simple motor work. Most keep changing parts until they give up and sell the bike. There's gotta be a reason for everything.,,,
I agree... There is always a reason and a solution to every problem.. LoL some people sell the problem and it becomes somebody elses problem to find the solution..
The lifters I took out had a lot of miles on them. Changed them as a precaution. They never bled down in all the years they were in and all the miles..
As you can see I took apart the Johnson HyLifts and found nothing but clean oil in them.. maybe one of them is out of tolerance.. I have no clue..
And if a lifter had head spring pressure on it when the motor is shut off, it pushes the oil out so next start up, it's dry
I tried to find one that bled down and they all had some tension on them.. Couldn't push any of them down at all. Started up with push rod tubes up, produced two quick bangs, from the rear cylinder i think.. Happens to quick to pin point..
Hopefully these S&S lifters will be the last set I buy.. I'm getting old and really don't like taking things apart that I just had apart..
Thanks for your thoughts.
It may not be a bad tappet. All tappets leak down with valve spring tension on them, the issue is how fast do they reset. Should happen while the motor is cranking.
It could be an issue of the tappet just being lazy to reset. You can get an idea of how that is going just using a pump oil can. If one is hard to refill, it's prolly the one. All the same, then perhaps not a tappet. Or it could be an oil supply issue. Either a lag in the oil arriving, or the need to displace some air before letting the oil through. It may not be a single tappet, it may be any tappet that's stuck holding a valve open for the week. Or jest either of the tappets holding a valve open on a particular jug. It could be related to somethin like a leaking piston jet or it could be wear.
Take the tappets to your indy and let him test them. Most decent shops test new tappets before installing them, such is the quality these days. And if you find a bad one, you have it whooped. If not, then measure the tappet bores. If they pass muster, then its time to inspect the cam plate and pump. Past that, you might rig something up to test the jets, you'd be looking for one that was stuck open.
Quote from: Thermodyne on October 26, 2020, 01:53:52 PM
It may not be a bad tappet. All tappets leak down with valve spring tension on them, the issue is how fast do they reset. Should happen while the motor is cranking.
It could be an issue of the tappet just being lazy to reset. You can get an idea of how that is going just using a pump oil can. If one is hard to refill, it's prolly the one. All the same, then perhaps not a tappet. Or it could be an oil supply issue. Either a lag in the oil arriving, or the need to displace some air before letting the oil through. It may not be a single tappet, it may be any tappet that's stuck holding a valve open for the week. Or jest either of the tappets holding a valve open on a particular jug. It could be related to somethin like a leaking piston jet or it could be wear.
Take the tappets to your indy and let him test them. Most decent shops test new tappets before installing them, such is the quality these days. And if you find a bad one, you have it whooped. If not, then measure the tappet bores. If they pass muster, then its time to inspect the cam plate and pump. Past that, you might rig something up to test the jets, you'd be looking for one that was stuck open.
Thanks for the suggestions..
They were all full of oil.. Lots of oil up in the heads as well.. I have no Indy.. Live in the boonies..When I installed them they all filled without issue,
I'll have an answer after I get these S&S lifters installed and she sits for 6 or 7 days.. I'm 99.9 % sure the noise was a lifter bled way down..
I might add that it had to sit for close to a week to get the noise.. 3 or 4 days no banging..
This bike doesn't crank on a cold start unless I forget to pull the fuel enrichner out. Fires up like BAM ! as soon as you hit the button. Always been that way.
Going to get started on putting the S&S lifters in this afternoon....Might finish tomorrow.. I do nothing in a hurry any more..
Thanks again
I have the same problem on occasion. WFO lifters Andrews 48 cams. When I get the tapping and a little clanking I turn up the radio for a while. When I turn down the radio the noise is gone............
MIKE
When you removed the pushrod tubes, i guess you snapped them back without new o rings. Have seen several posts about oil leaking without new o rings and assume no problems since new lifters only 2500 miles ago.
I wanted to check my adjustable pushrods as I have some lifter noise and to make sure the the nut is still tight without removing the rods, since my S&S lifters and stage 2 cam about 4,000 miles ago. Trying to decide on doing it without new rings.
2017 street glide
Try it without new o-rings, you probably won't have any problems, if you do you change them.
Or don't check the rods, and just wonder if there is a problem.
Peace of mind is worth a few potential o-ring changes.
Quote from: SlowRacer on October 28, 2020, 08:08:44 AM
When you removed the pushrod tubes, i guess you snapped them back without new o rings. Have seen several posts about oil leaking without new o rings and assume no problems since new lifters only 2500 miles ago.
I wanted to check my adjustable pushrods as I have some lifter noise and to make sure the the nut is still tight without removing the rods, since my S&S lifters and stage 2 cam about 4,000 miles ago. Trying to decide on doing it without new rings.
2017 street glide
I reused all the gaskets and o rings. Not because I wanted to but.. I called the local dealer on Monday and they didn't have a complete set of push rod o rings, no lifter cover gaskets.. No o rings for the rocker supports... Had to order them he says... I ask when will they be in...."not sure, maybe by the end of the week or some time next week " "parts have been slow coming in" Thanks........
The reason I wanted to change them they are all James o rings and gaskets with the exception of the rocker cover gaskets. I had to replace the James rocker cover gaskets right after installing them,, Couldn't get them to seal.. Never had an issue with OEM gaskets. Don't ask why I used James gaskets.. :banghead: Not gonna happen again..
Buttoned it up on Wednesday afternoon ran it on the lift to check for leaks.. All good... Took her out for about a 70 mi ride Friday and no leaks.. Now I'm going to let her sit until Thursday and see what a cold start up sounds like..
Quote from: Hossamania on October 28, 2020, 08:50:58 AM
Try it without new o-rings, you probably won't have any problems, if you do you change them.
Or don't check the rods, and just wonder if there is a problem.
Peace of mind is worth a few potential o-ring changes.
:up:
Quote from: MikeL on October 27, 2020, 10:16:00 AM
I have the same problem on occasion. WFO lifters Andrews 48 cams. When I get the tapping and a little clanking I turn up the radio for a while. When I turn down the radio the noise is gone............
MIKE
Just me....I can't stand it when things aren't working right..
Update:
Bike sat since last Friday. Plenty long enough for the problem to present itself. Just fired her up. :bike: Sounds good.. NO hammer on a cast iron pan noises.. Going for a ride.. Our SC weather has returned to normal.. Sunshine and 70's :bike:
Maybe I'll sell my Johnson HyLifts on ebay or craigs list... LOL Just kidding I would never do that.. They are in a box with the other two sets previously changed.. Why do I save these things I dunno...
Thanks to all for your input on this.
"Take the tappets to your indy and let him test them. Most decent shops test new tappets before installing them, such is the quality these days. "
That should be interesting. What apparatus are they using for that test?
I sold my 1960s vintage Kent Moore tool years ago.
Just buy quality parts and that's the best we can do. Very high lift, spring pressures, will exaggerate the problem, not saying this is the case here just generally speaking.
http://www.motorcycleworks.com/Jims-Tappet-Pump-and-Tester_p_94172.html
I had forgot about those, thanks
Quote from: Coyote on November 05, 2020, 07:23:53 AM
http://www.motorcycleworks.com/Jims-Tappet-Pump-and-Tester_p_94172.html
Thanks.. I was wondering how one would test a lifter beyond checking machine specs.. Which if one knew what they were they could do some measuring..
Think I'll just stick with "quality" parts.. Every time you think yer getting a deal.....Yer not..