Just wondering if there is any bennifit to changing the fueing pump i have to the RR 3 stage pump , i use the RR vented cam plate for 06 - up style and the 06 - up fueling pump, but i am going to be getting in there maybe, and wondering if the pump is worth swapping
Unless you have a problem I don't see any advantage..
The maximum gyrator depth dimension is taken up by the feuling pump as in the 3 stage. What the 3 stage does is split the scavenge gyrator in two. One scavenge gyrator picks up on the cam chest side directly but as I see it the depth of oil has to be about 1/16" or it sucks air.. No problem there as that much oil there means nothing. The other side of the scavenge gyrator picks up from the crank case and works exactly like stock or feuling. If you are dumping a old oil pump or even wanted to replace the new style both the 3 stage and feuling are about the same. If you want more scavenge or supply beyond that the S&S gear drive cams/oil pump would be the way to go. The larger set of gears would make it possible to scavenge more oil. One thing though. You can only scavenge what you supply and use in the engine. So scavenging 150% or 300% more than supply makes little difference.
I swapped out my Fueling pump and '04 cam plate on my new build for one of TR's 3 stage pumps and the SE cam plate he is selling to use with them. As it was explained to me if the 2 stage pump starts cavitating in the cam chest then you lose the scavenge side to the crankcase. Seemed like a good idea to me to have everything on its own circuit. But then again I am a sucker for a mod.
So what TR is saying is when the fueling pump is sucking air from cam chest this stops it from scavaging the crank case? this would be also be in reverse correct it would not scavage cam if sucking air in crankcase, if so then i can see a bennifit but is this really happening
The explanation came from my Indy Otto. He said that this has always been a problem with the engines. Now his experience is coming from race bikes so I don't know how big of an issue it is for street bikes. It still makes sense to me so I went with it. I see that Reggie at R&R is also selling a 3 stage pump that was designed by a different guy than TR.
QuoteI see that Reggie at R&R is also selling a 3 stage pump that was designed by a different guy than TR.
Put both pumps side by side and it looks like you be hard pressed to tell which one is which, leading me to believe there is only one OEM for them.
Which is Dan Thayer
Got two of the S&S set ups with 640 cams if anyone is intrested. Brand new never run, other has less than 400 miles on it.
If HD, S&S, Feuling, 3 stage, pumps scavenge greater than supply they will always suck air at some point, even a stock one. This is a dry sump system. It is supposed to do that.
For those folks that have a wet sump problem, it is either the alignment of your pump or the overpressure bypass is stuck open flooding the cam chest and then backing up into the crankcase.
Simplistic but true, but with a 3 stage pump having 2 separate scavenge sections, one for the crankcase and one for the camchest, one of them sucking air wont stop the other sucking oil, I kinda like that and think that's the way it should have been from the start.
It don't sound like a terribly bad idea, but these things are positive-displacement pumps. I don't see a problem. Sucking air doesn't mean it won't also suck oil.
So with this type of pump , if the scavage is sucking oil from two seperate holes one from crankase and one from cam chest , all with same gear , so lets say the cam chest is empty and sucking air this wont cause the crank case to stop sucking oil even though the air is stoping any vaccum from crank side , or am i being dumb and there is no vaccum from pump so it does not matter.
QuoteSo with this type of pump
To which one are you referring ?
A 3 stage pump has 2 separate scavenge sections, not to be confused with a HD or Feuling Pump which only has 1 scavenge section.
QuoteAs it was explained to me if the 2 stage pump starts cavitating in the cam chest then you lose the scavenge side to the crankcase.
Well call him back and tell him it ain't cavitation, its aeration.. Air gets in the pump (which is typical of a scavenge pump BTW) and it stops sucking oil..
Quotegyrator
I know a couple topless gyrators.. The were fun but you really didn't want to date them too much.. They got a little weird..
BTW guys it not a three stage... It's three single stages.. :gob:
You might call the stock scavenge pump a 1/2 stage though..
QuoteSucking air doesn't mean it won't also suck oil.
In the case of the 1/2 stage stock pump.. It can stop sucking oil from one side if the other is nothing but air..
Max
I'm pretty sure at this point we're talking about the stock/Fueling dual-rotor pumps.
It might not suck quite as much oil from the crankcase while sucking air from the cam chest as it does while sucking oil from the cam chest, but it'll still suck as much of everything from everywhere as it can. A positive displacement pump positively displaces, hence its name.
Not the same type, but we once had a pneumatic diaphragm pump suck a raincoat out of a sump pit through about 12' of 3" hose, right into the diaphragm chamber!
QuoteBTW guys it not a three stage... It's three single stages..
Max you are correct, yet again. :teeth:
Whole lotta' good to said about the OE pump/plate. :smile:
Scott
Quote from: Hillsidecyclecom on March 24, 2010, 03:52:37 AM
Whole lotta' good to said about the OE pump/plate. :smile:
Scott
Like what, because there seems to be all these new solutions to oiling problems that seemingly don't exist? Why don't we need this new pump, or the SE pump, and why is there this big push for high oil pressure when so many very knowledgeable guys say that pumping the oil pressure so high (EG LMR spring) is totally unnecessary and even detrimental to performance?
There was all this talk in the last few months about how wonderful this new “3 stage†oil pump was going to be and how it was the next greatest most wonderful thing to be invented and now, nothing. Some guys said from the word “go†that this pump wasn’t necessary, why?
I know I’m asking questions that can’t really be completely answered within the confines of a forum post, just looking for some insight if you’ve got the time
In my extreme applications (race bike) we have seen the pump cavitate at rpm on the return side it is also part of the wet sump or swamping problem some people see on the street one side gets pulled dry and then starts sucking air then 'cavatates' until there is enough oil in both locals "gearcase & Flywheel" to pull the oil and restart returning oil__________________
Otto
info from vtwin,
itsa, thanks man, but when Otto says something it usually goes way over my head, he doesn't know how to break it down for the lay folks.
*edited* so I don't have to hear any gay jokes. :cry:
Quote from: build it on March 24, 2010, 11:59:44 AM
he doesn't know how to break it down for the lay.
Ok I'll behave, honest! :smilep:
Quote from: build it on March 24, 2010, 11:59:44 AM
itsa, thanks man, but when Otto says something it usually goes way over my head, he doesn't know how to break it down for the lay.
Well technically he's using the term wrong.. The pump does not have cavitation, it looses its prime from aeration.
Max
Max, I tried searching for answers to my questions to no avail, could you point me in the right direction
Quote from: build it on March 24, 2010, 08:19:38 AM
Like what, because there seems to be all these new solutions to oiling problems that seemingly don't exist?
Here is my " it ain't broke done fiix it.."
If it works done worry about it..
Quote
Why don't we need this new pump, or the SE pump, and why is there this big push for high oil pressure when so many very knowledgeable guys say that pumping the oil pressure so high (EG LMR spring) is totally unnecessary and even detrimental to performance?
You don't need the pump or the spring ..but capitalism gets in the way..
Now the new plate gets you the new tensioners which is nice but the pump ain't needed.. Kind of a placebo..
Quote
There was all this talk in the last few months about how wonderful this new “3 stage†oil pump was going to be and how it was the next greatest most wonderful thing to be invented and now, nothing. Some guys said from the word “go†that this pump wasn’t necessary, why?
I like this pump, does a stock motor or mild need it.. Probably not.. There is an issue with the dual scavenge pump with one set of rotors where there can be a problem.. This is what Otto is trying to describe but is using the wrong term.
I'm not sure the average guy with a motor under 110 CI is going to see value in the 3 rotor pump if all the stuff he's got is working properly. If you got a big assed motor that is having trouble getting oil back into the tank. That 3 stage looks like a good fix.. I've run stock pumps in my 116 and they worked great.. No LMR spring.. The spring might be useful it quiet some lifter noice but YMMV.. I've not seen it help.
Quote
I know I’m asking questions that can’t really be completely answered within the confines of a forum post, just looking for some insight if you’ve got the time
That enough..??
Max
Just right. :smiled:
Quote from: MaxHeadflow on March 24, 2010, 02:03:27 PM
Quote from: build it on March 24, 2010, 08:19:38 AM
Like what, because there seems to be all these new solutions to oiling problems that seemingly don't exist?
Here is my " it ain't broke done fiix it.."
If it works done worry about it..
Quote
Why don't we need this new pump, or the SE pump, and why is there this big push for high oil pressure when so many very knowledgeable guys say that pumping the oil pressure so high (EG LMR spring) is totally unnecessary and even detrimental to performance?
You don't need the pump or the spring ..but capitalism gets in the way..
Now the new plate gets you the new tensioners which is nice but the pump ain't needed.. Kind of a placebo..
Quote
There was all this talk in the last few months about how wonderful this new “3 stage†oil pump was going to be and how it was the next greatest most wonderful thing to be invented and now, nothing. Some guys said from the word “go†that this pump wasn’t necessary, why?
I like this pump, does a stock motor or mild need it.. Probably not.. There is an issue with the dual scavenge pump with one set of rotors where there can be a problem.. This is what Otto is trying to describe but is using the wrong term.
I'm not sure the average guy with a motor under 110 CI is going to see value in the 3 rotor pump if all the stuff he's got is working properly. If you got a big assed motor that is having trouble getting oil back into the tank. That 3 stage looks like a good fix.. I've run stock pumps in my 116 and they worked great.. No LMR spring.. The spring might be useful it quiet some lifter noice but YMMV.. I've not seen it help.
Quote
I know I’m asking questions that can’t really be completely answered within the confines of a forum post, just looking for some insight if you’ve got the time
That enough..??
Max
I can count on 1 hand, the amount of billet plates or fancy pumps we have installed since the T/C's came out. And those were at clients requests. :smile:
Scott
Don, are you saying that Dan Thayer designed the 3 stage pump ? Dan lives a few town's over from me and did the tune when I had my '06 Road King.
Very knowledgeable guy, and interesting to. He has a couple of World War II trucks up at his place (that start right up and pure like kittens) that he is happy to show you and talk about.
Positive displacement pumps don't cavitate, like "Max" said. But they don't lose their prime (like he said). They're still pumping. Might be air/froth, but it's still being pumped. Just as soon as oil gets back to the inlet, it'll be pumped, too.
If there are two inlets and one of them is working with a different viscosity material and/or the inlets aren't capable of the same flow, they'll just flow proportionately.
If you're having trouble sumping, maybe you need to enlarge the oil return holes from your heads and/or from the crankcase. Now that will be a bit of work on an otherwise well-running engine; more work than simply swapping out to a 3-cavity pump, which should "fix" it too if the new pump works well-enough.
So how thick are the gears compared to the fueling feed gear are the 3stage gears that thick or are they thinner like the older oem feed gear or the new oem feed gear
They wouldn't be "stages", it's just three separate pumps, two with a common outlet. Don't have a clue about relative sizes. Just saw it being discussed and wanted to marginally poo-poo somebody's poo-pooing of them.
QuoteSo how thick are the gears compared to the fueling feed gear are the 3stage gears that thick or are they thinner like the older oem feed gear or the new oem feed gear
Thayer's pump uses same gerotors as the late style H-D pump; extra set of scavenge gears in rear/3rd stage.
Had one laying at Axtell's booth in Cinci, and my buddy elswick had a very interesting conversation with Thayer! :gob:
:wink:
http://www.tmanperformance.com/image-viewer.htm?oilpump_camplate/Fnewproduct1-2.jpg (http://www.tmanperformance.com/image-viewer.htm?oilpump_camplate/Fnewproduct1-2.jpg)
(http://s1.bild.me/bilder/012010/54300093-Stage_Hi-Performance_Oil_Pump_01.jpg)
(http://s1.bild.me/bilder/012010/46097143-Stage_Hi-Performance_Oil_Pump_02.jpg)
IIRC they are all late model feed rotors.. So what is the feed to scavenge ratio?
Max
Don't see the need for stock or mild builds as stock pumps work just fine-If anyoneone needs that much, why not skip the 3 stage and go to a 4 stage?
Quote from: pwmorris on March 25, 2010, 08:58:52 PM
Don't see the need for stock or mild builds as stock pumps work just fine-If anyoneone needs that much, why not skip the 3 stage and go to a 4 stage?
You are preaching to the choir here.. :wink: I would like to try it in the 131 but the first thing I'm doing is removing the scavenge side oil cooler.. Unfortunately it's head gasket time first.. :cry: Max
Quote from: MaxHeadflow on March 25, 2010, 08:56:58 PM
IIRC they are all late model feed rotors.. So what is the feed to scavenge ratio?
Max
A trick question Max ?
If you understand what is going on it's a "no brainer".. :wink: Max
True, 3 rotors, 1 feed, 2 scavenge, but I'm still looking for the hidden gotcha in your ? :teeth:
Well express it as a ratio and you are done.. :wink: Max
I was done a long time ago :wink: but was looking for your gotcha but no one would bite or perhaps no one saw it. :teeth:
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,23914.msg245325.html#msg245325 (http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,23914.msg245325.html#msg245325)
He wants to know what the widths of the three rotors are.
ratio would be 1 to 1. less than oem.
Im running the Fueling w/ the Latus motors spring and its works great. No oil issues. Running vent lines to the ground.
Quote from: rednectum on March 26, 2010, 05:21:32 AM
ratio would be 1 to 1. less than oem.
Think about it, you have 2 scavenge rotors.. Max
.310 gears wouldnt it be 33 feed 66 scvage ao close to that base on the specs of the oem late model pumps with the .620 scavage and the .310 feed , since it would be 2 * .310 scavage and .310 feed and the oem was 33 / 66 ratio
I've got a secret and I've just got to tell someone ! The stock[yes I said stock] oil pump works awesome. :hyst: :potstir:
I need more scavenge and I got it.Now I will see how the Thayer works on a .630 cam with a Delkron plate.
Quote from: Showdog75 on March 26, 2010, 03:58:39 PM
I've got a secret and I've just got to tell someone ! The stock[yes I said stock] oil pump works awesome. :hyst: :potstir:
Sho' 'nuff does. :wink:
Scott