Can someone explain in detail how to replace the circuit breaker in my 2002 Road King with a 40 amp fuse holder as in the 2004 - present Harleys. At least look at your 2004 newer bike and see where the wires are routed.
On circuit breaker bikes from the copper post of the breaker to the positive connection on the starter and from the silver post one wire runs to the voltage regulator and one wire runs to the ignition switch.
Now on the 2004 is it the same way with one wire to the starter and two wires wired into the other side?
In July 2009, while my bike was being dyno tuned, my bike experienced a voltage spike that took out the ECM, TSSM, speedometer, passing lamp switch, all the bulbs, Badland Run, Brake and Turn Module, RB Racing air/fuel ratio gauge, TTS Tuner and Kuryakyn LED tail lights. The only plausible explanation is that the circuit breaker overheated and disconnected the circuit from the battery, but not from the alternator, which sent a voltage spike and fried all my electronics.
Back in 2004 I upgraded from a 40 amp to a 50 amp circuit breaker when Harley issed a recall. And then beginning with 2004 models, Harley replaced the circuit breaker with the 40-amp fuse. If I have an electrical short, I'd prefer to have the fuse blow, and then try to determine the problem, then to risk frying all my electronics again. I could just recrimp and soldering the wires connecting to the circuit breaker, but for me, the Maxi Fuse upgrade gives me a piece of mind, having to replace all my electronics once already.
Additional reading:
Service Bulletin M-1151A Safety Recall Code 0113 June 10, 2004
http://www.pvc.maricopa.edu/~preston/M1151A.pdf (http://www.pvc.maricopa.edu/~preston/M1151A.pdf)
Harley recalls more than 73,000 bikes
http://www3.jsonline.com/bym/news/mar04/216860.asp (http://www3.jsonline.com/bym/news/mar04/216860.asp)
Discussion of same issue on HD Forum
http://www.hdforums.com/forum/electrical-and-lighting/265515-circuit-breaker-old-issue-new-perspective.html (http://www.hdforums.com/forum/electrical-and-lighting/265515-circuit-breaker-old-issue-new-perspective.html)
Below is from a May 2010, page 38 Iron American letter written by a rider saying that:
The root problem with false tripping of the cirucit breaker is more commonly due to a poor crimp connector on the battery wiring lug that connects onto the breaker. Over time, the copper wire corrodes withn the crimp, introducing resistance to the circuit. As current is drawn through the circuit (and the resistant connection), power is dissipated as heat. That heat is conducted through the lug, directly to the circuit breaker. Fixing the problem requires installing a new crimp terminal lug. Then, and this is important, solder the terminal lug to ensure an extremely low resistance connection. I have since replaced the circuit breaker on my 2002 Ultra with a 40-amp fuse and new crimped/soldered terminals. Since doing this, the fuse has never blown.
It might also be added that if the breaker does trip, the motor will die. But if the breaker trips intermittently, it will put a large voltage spike onto the electrical circuitry. That spike has the potential of doing damage to the ECU, tach, speedometer, radio, TSSM and all other electrical add ons. That's because the circuit breaker only disconnects the battery from the circuit. The alternator is still connected and can supply an instantaneous 60 volts to the electrical circuti when the battery is not in the circuit.
Check the wiring diagrams in => http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,16691.0.html (http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,16691.0.html)
The information is all there, in particular,
Page 1 : Wiring_2002_All_Touring_DOM-INT
and
Page 5 : Wiring_2004_All_Touring_DOM-INT
Yes you basically splice the fuse holder wires to the circuit breaker wires.
QuoteI think one of the two fuse holder wires connects to the positive battery terminal. What does the other wire connect to?
That is the wire coming off the starter solenoid, which is essentially the positive battery terminal. It is black with a red band. For the circuit breaker, this connects to the copper stud. On the silver stud you have the positive lead from the voltage regulator (black with yellow heat shrink) plus the main lead going to the ignition switch (red with yellow heat shrink). From the diagrams, it seems like the fuse is wired the same way. Can't see why it would be any different.
Instead of doing that I would just get another breaker. Any auto parts store has them. Some of them may have mounting ears that need to be removed with a hacksaw, but that is easy.
Helpful info guys, thank you. I should just be able to use a fuse holder like one in ones of these links:
http://catalog2.genpt.com/catviewer15/(3s3qef55npauq5f3dzsp1nj1)/Catalog/Results.aspx?Ntt=fuse+block&Nao=20&Ntk=Keyword&Nty=1&N=0&ShowPics=1 (http://catalog2.genpt.com/catviewer15/(3s3qef55npauq5f3dzsp1nj1)/Catalog/Results.aspx?Ntt=fuse+block&Nao=20&Ntk=Keyword&Nty=1&N=0&ShowPics=1)
http://www.tti-plus.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=TTI-MAXI-F8G-40&site=google_base (http://www.tti-plus.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=TTI-MAXI-F8G-40&site=google_base)
http://www.amazon.com/MAXI-Fuse-Holder-Waterproof-Cover/dp/B00030CPOQ (http://www.amazon.com/MAXI-Fuse-Holder-Waterproof-Cover/dp/B00030CPOQ)
http://www.kmart.com:80/shc/s/p_10151_10104_018V001823223000P?
vName=Computers+&psid=SHOPPING&sName=Accessories&cName=CarElectronics&sid=KDx20070926x00003c (http://www.kmart.com:80/shc/s/p_10151_10104_018V001823223000P?vName=Computers+&psid=SHOPPING&sName=Accessories&cName=CarElectronics&sid=KDx20070926x00003c)
http://www.powerwerx.com/fuse-holders-fuses/ (http://www.powerwerx.com/fuse-holders-fuses/)
Looking into it further and at the 2010 Wiring Diagrams HD still have it wrong. The output of the regulator is wired into the load side of the 40A Fuse no the supply side, meaning if the fuse blows the Battery is disconnected from the load but the regulator is not, this is bad, bad, bad.
I'm sure we all know what can happen to the electrics in a cage if the battery is disconnected with the engine running, with no input/battery reference the regulator output of the alternator can go extremely high and blow all the electrics.
Quote from: Fatboy_SirGarfield on March 23, 2010, 05:48:14 AM
Looking into it further and at the 2010 Wiring Diagrams HD still have it wrong. The output of the regulator is wired into the load side of the 40A Fuse no the supply side, meaning if the fuse blows the Battery is disconnected from the load but the regulator is not, this is bad, bad, bad.
I'm sure we all know what can happen to the electrics in a cage if the battery is disconnected with the engine running, with no input/battery reference the regulator output of the alternator can go extremely high and blow all the electrics.
SirGarfield, thanks, your explanation sums up what I believed happened to me - battery disconnected from circuit with the engine running, the regulator output of the alternator spiked and my bike was literally SMOKING from front to back....
From the wiring diagrams, it looks like it's as simple as just splicing the fuse holder wires onto the corresponding circuit breaker wires.
There was a thread on HTT put up by KenR a few years ago about installing a 2 maxi-fuse type setup to route the alternator into one 1st, then over to the 2nd main fuse.
Quote from: Fatboy_SirGarfield on March 23, 2010, 05:48:14 AM
Looking into it further and at the 2010 Wiring Diagrams HD still have it wrong. The output of the regulator is wired into the load side of the 40A Fuse no the supply side, meaning if the fuse blows the Battery is disconnected from the load but the regulator is not, this is bad, bad, bad.
I'm sure we all know what can happen to the electrics in a cage if the battery is disconnected with the engine running, with no input/battery reference the regulator output of the alternator can go extremely high and blow all the electrics.
I assume this goes back many model years including 2001?
Maybe we all need to do some rewiring.
In researching to make a decision - replace the circuit breaker and resolder the connections or go to a fuse:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ouU...eakers&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=ouU...eakers&f=false)
Opponents of circuit breakers rightfully point out that after an automatic-reset circuit breaker cools; it permits current to flow again. If the cause of the overload is still there â€" and it probably will be â€" the circuit breaker again heats up and breaks the circuit. This on-of-on cycle repeats until the problem is corrected. Unfortunately, during the on time, current flows unimpeded. If the circuit breaker’s trip point is too high, the on periods may be long enough to overheat the wiring, just as though there were no circuit protection. Opponents of circuit breakers consider this a major safety hazard. If you notice an on-off cycle occurring, immediately shut down the affected circuit, then find and correct the problem before using the circuit again.
http://www.bcae1.com/cirbrakr.htm (http://www.bcae1.com/cirbrakr.htm)
Reliability:
In my opinion and from my experience, circuit breakers are less reliable than fuses (especially when the breaker is mounted in the harsh environment under the hood). Quality fuses like ANL and Maxi fuses have a solid element (no solder connections) and will almost never have an intermittent or poor electrical connection. A circuit breaker will eventually have higher contact resistance than when it was new. This is especially true if the breaker has been tripped (by overcurrent) more than a few times. If you're going to compete and can't take a chance of having a problem like a bad connection in the power line, you should use a good quality fuse. Now I know that people have had fuses blow in competition but it was because the fuse was not properly rated, not because the fuse was defective.
__________________
2002 Road King Classic
(9.16:1 Corrected CR)
97" (3.932") Axtell cylinders
97" (3.932") JE Flat Top Pistons
Baisley Superstock Heads - 84cc
0.030" Head Gasket
JM20 gear drive cam
Horsepower Inc 48mm TB
Doherty PowerPacc w/Exotx Steel Mesh A/C
RB Racing LSR 2-1
3.37 final gear ratio
TTS Mastertune
Here's a picture of the setup KenR used. voltage regulator goes into the right side fuse, then over into the other fuse where the battery + from the starter solenoid goes.
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
QuoteI assume this goes back many model years including 2001?
At least to 1999, probably further.
I did my '03 FLHTI the same way couple years ago..
Here's the wiring diagram to go with the picture.
(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp230/HarleyInNH/Wiring/CircuitBreakerrewireforthebikeIllus.jpg)
Quote from: smoserx1 on March 23, 2010, 10:20:02 AM
QuoteI assume this goes back many model years including 2001?
At least to 1999, probably further.
'84's were OK, I'll need to check later manuals to see when they made the change
Here's a heavy duty 40 amp from Napa.
http://catalog2.genpt.com/catviewer15/(3s3qef55npauq5f3dzsp1nj1)/Catalog/Results.aspx?Ntt=fuse+block&Nao=20&Ntk=Keyword&Nty=1&N=0&ShowPics=1 (http://catalog2.genpt.com/catviewer15/(3s3qef55npauq5f3dzsp1nj1)/Catalog/Results.aspx?Ntt=fuse+block&Nao=20&Ntk=Keyword&Nty=1&N=0&ShowPics=1)
Fuse Block, Maxi Fuseholder / Part: BK 7825317 Product Line: Balkamp
#6 gauge Lead Wire, Works w/ Blade Style Fuses
Amp Rating: 20 - 60 Amp
Maxi Fuseholder w/ Cover
Manufacturer: Bussmann
Manufacturer Part Number: HHX
Quote from: HarleyInNH on March 23, 2010, 01:07:57 PM
I did my '03 FLHTI the same way couple years ago..
Hmmm, may be a better way than just using one fuse holder..... What's the reasoning with two 40-amp fuse holders?
Ok, for the electrical idiots like myself using one fuse holder to replace the circuit breaker, considering there is no in/out side on the fuse holder, can I take the "starter positive wire" and splice it into a wire on one side of the fuse holder and then splice the "voltage regulator & ignition wire" onto the other wire on the fuse holder?
Or I should ask, what is the preferred way?
They are paralleling the loads protected by fuses. If the charging system takes out a fuse, the bike should still run. Would hate to lose total power in traffic plus if you can't fix the problem, it mmay be possible to get home.
Bagger,
Check the diagram. (previous post)
Using 2 separate 40A fuses isolates the electrical system (fuses and ignition) if a voltage spike occurs that is greater than 40A.
If the voltage reg blows its fuse, the electrical system is protected.
Those that are interested in Harley parts courtesy of ClassicRider2002:
73301-04 Housing, 2-way female $3.96 ea
73302-04 Cover, fuse block $3.52 ea
73303-04 Secondary lock, 2-way $2.20 ea
73304-04 Terminal, .31 female $3.30 ea
73305-04 #10 blue wire seal (2) @ $1.25 ea
72314-01 40-amp spade fuse $3.49 ea
Guys, in the dual-fuse setup shown above, if the battery-side fuse goes, you're still all the same susceptible to a voltage spike from the regulator as without the second fuse.
What you'd want to protect from that would be a single-pole (or use just one pole of a multi) normally-open relay with the coil fed between ground and the switched ignition lead, and the contacts wired in series with the regulator feed (in place of that second maxi-fuse, or in series with it if you feel better protected that way). This way, if the maxi-fuse goes, so does the regulator feed, in a timely manner.
I confess to being previously unfamiliar with the "voltage spike" problem mentioned above. If it's in fact a common problem, it sure seems as though the Moco would've addressed it just like I outlined here.
A car typically(?) has an electromagnetic alternator whereas our bikes (at least my current Twin Cam) have permanent magnets. I don't see a voltage spike typically occurring with the loss of the battery, but I'll study into it.
QuoteGuys, in the dual-fuse setup shown above, if the battery-side fuse goes, you're still all the same susceptible to a voltage spike from the regulator as without the second fuse.
I disagree, if the battery-side (the left 40A Fuse looking at HarleyInNH pic) fuse goes the bike will stop dead with no 12V power to the ignition switch or fuse panel.
Okay, I see (since I now actually looked) what was done. Moved the feed from the alternator over to the battery side of the maxi-fuse and fused the feed as well.
I still haven't looked into it (saw a rabbit or two) but don't see why with a permanent magnet alternator and solid-state regulator the bike wouldn't just keep right on motoring along if the maxi blew, with the way the factory did it.
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
QuoteI still haven't looked into it (saw a rabbit or two) but don't see why with a permanent magnet alternator and solid-state regulator the bike wouldn't just keep right on motoring along if the maxi blew, with the way the factory did it.
When the maxi fuse blows what does the regulator use as a reference to control the output voltage ?
Why does it need an external reference?
I'm banned so can't see anymore the larger images in http://www.hdtalking.com/electrical/21993-a_peek_inside_a_black_box.html (http://www.hdtalking.com/electrical/21993-a_peek_inside_a_black_box.html)
I'm pretty sure he referenced a second page of schematic but didn't include it for some reason. I'm going to pull my regulator plug tomorrow and fire up the bike, measuring the output voltage. I'm betting it'll be less than 15 volts DC.
QuoteI still haven't looked into it (saw a rabbit or two) but don't see why with a permanent magnet alternator and solid-state regulator the bike wouldn't just keep right on motoring along if the maxi blew, with the way the factory did it.
My thoughts exactly.
Quote from: trück on March 23, 2010, 07:22:37 AM
I assume this goes back many model years including 2001?
Maybe we all need to do some rewiring.
HD messed around in the mid 80's moving the alternator input wire from the battery + post to both the silver and copper posts on the main breaker. Along about 88 or so, they settled on putting the alternator input wire to the same side of the breaker as the feed to the ignition. I agree with others posters, not the ideal place for it due to reasons already sited. This is not the 1st time I've heard of the main breaker tripping then an alternator spike taking out various elements.
What was the purpose in the earlier pictures and diagrams where two fuses were installed? It looks like this essentially places a fuse in line with the voltage regulator + output, then relocates the regulator + output to the inlet side of the battery fuse, as opposed to the exit side. Why not simply move the regulator output to the inlet side of whatever device the bike already uses (fuse or breaker)? That way, if the fuse blows or the breaker trips, you certainly won't get a spike, because both the battery and regulator output would be be instantly disconnected. Of course, with things wired like this, if the fuse or breaker failed, the motorcycle would also immediately quit running because there would be no electricity whatsoever.
Like Glen said earlier, with a permanent magnet alternator (which requires no excitation) being connected to the exit side of the breaker or fuse (like the current factory setup), it looks to me like the motorcycle should theoretically remain running if the fuse/breaker blows (assuming the resulting spike or ripple does not take out the ECM, and there is not a complete short to ground in the ignition switch feed). Maybe this way it would keep you from loosing all engine power instantaneously, which is very dangerous. I wonder if that is why Harley does it this way?
Any other thoughts on this?
Steve,
If you'll recall, back in 2004 when HD issued service bulletin M1151 and 1151A with instructions to replace the 40A breaker with a 50A breaker because the 40A breaker failure was causing, QUOTE "These motorcycles have a condition whereby the 40 amp main circuit breaker could open due to reasons other than for which it was designed, causing an unexpected interruption of all electrical power. This condition could cause a "quit while riding" situation, which could occur without warning and lead to a crash, thereby presenting a risk of death or injury to the rider."
This would lead me to believe that a failed breaker shuts down the whole bike regardless of the supplied current from the regulator. I sure am not any kind of electrical expert but that's my understanding of what was happening.
AS to your question about why 2 fuses vice 1, I can only assume it was to provide some leeway in case the regulator went overboard and blew the 1st fuse which would still allow the bike to keep running under battery only power (for a short time only). In a 1 fuse setup, you couldn't do this.
Seems to me the primary reason for the Maxifuse is to protect the charging system from a failed battery or maybe somehow the starter motor should it get engaged in a hard way while the system's charging, or an eventful mis-attempt at attaching jumper cables to a running bike. Something like that.
Not saying the voltage couldn't ever spike for some reason, but I don't reckon a 40A fuse is gonna protect electronics from one. The fuse is a current-limiting device, not a voltage clamp.
way back...seem to be that my old Nortons and Triumphs had a capacitor approx size of a D-cell for running w/out batt. kick-start
Quote from: glens on March 25, 2010, 06:05:22 AM
The fuse is a current-limiting device, not a voltage clamp.
You can say the same for the automotve type of breaker as well. But, in my trade, we generally feel and have observed that a fuse is voltage sensitive, more so than a breaker and in many cases blows quicker than the breaker trips. A fuse will blow every single time. I have seen cases where a breaker does not trip out.
Considering all the burnt wiring that I've seen over the years on knucks, pans and shovels cause they didn't have circuit breakers or fuses to protect against shorts or overloads, I'd suggest that maybe that's the major purpose of the breakers or fuses. Granted that nowadays there are numerous fuses to protect individual circuits so the main breaker or maxi-fuse it there as the final level of protection and also to protect the charging system and/or starter/solenoid. JMHO
Well Ed, a lot of guys didn't bother with a fuse on their older bikes. I know I always ran several and never had an ssue with the wiring burning up where as I had to help a buddy re-wire his on the side of the road. He ran a fuse after that.
Quote from: Tsani on March 25, 2010, 06:33:03 AM
Well Ed, a lot of guys didn't bother with a fuse on their older bikes. I know I always ran several and never had an ssue with the wiring burning up where as I had to help a buddy re-wire his on the side of the road. He ran a fuse after that.
Agreed. I can remember adding a 30A breaker with bar to the battery on many, many older bikes that had nothing.
QuoteIn July 2009, while my bike was being dyno tuned, my bike experienced a voltage spike that took out the ECM, TSSM, speedometer, passing lamp switch, all the bulbs, Badland Run, Brake and Turn Module, Kuryakyn LED tail lights. The only plausible explanation is that the circuit breaker overheated and disconnected the circuit from the battery, but not from the alternator, which sent a voltage spike the fried all my electronics.
Did the head light blow??
My bet is that the bike lost the breaker and same time as the head light might have lost connection and the POS badlands brake slight thingy, fed the spike from the running light wiring back into the TSSM, killing the TSSM, ecm and speedo.. after market light thingy.. Leds.. etc...
Mayor You need to read this.. The after market break light / load / turn signal module must have been designed buy a EE that knows reliability... (or a tech that had engineer's disease) :wink:
Max
QuoteThat way, if the fuse blows or the breaker trips, you certainly won't get a spike, because both the battery and regulator output would be be instantly disconnected.
You don't understand what fused are designed for.. They are to protect wiring and nothing more.. In your case, if you get a short in the wire from the battery to regulator, you'll burn that wire and possibly cause a fire.. Max
Not so. If the circuit actually worked (see below) the fuse between the charging system and battery would've already opened.
I understand what fuses are for, trust me. That's pretty much why I'm questioning the double-maxi arrangement (and the relay bit was pretty much tongue-in-cheek). I feel the way the factory put mine together is just fine. I like it.
I couldn't remember what you were referring to so scrolled back some. I see where I'd not made proper provision for the relay power to be interrupted by the maxi opening. Maybe it'd be better to use the normally-closed contacts for the feed from the alternator, with the energizing coil wired in parallel to the maxi. That way if it opens, the relay coil will be energized, opening up the alternator feed contacts. It would make a neat little oscillator as the bike decelerates intermittently, unless/until the relay coil smokes.
The way I'd described it (at least the way I'm reading that now) the relay would remain energized by the very circuit it would interrupt if it opened, providing no real function whatsoever; just as well not even be present in the circuit. By the same token, the potential for damage would be exactly the same as with the way the factory ships it.
Quote from: Tsani on March 25, 2010, 06:24:42 AM
... in my trade, we generally feel and have observed that a fuse is voltage sensitive, more so than a breaker and in many cases blows quicker than the breaker trips. A fuse will blow every single time. I have seen cases where a breaker does not trip out.
Well, yeah. At twice the voltage they have half the rating, nominally. What you're saying is not so easy a statement to make so simply. Various types of fuses and breakers have various response characteristics.
Quote from: MaxHeadflow on March 25, 2010, 07:17:32 AM
QuoteThat way, if the fuse blows or the breaker trips, you certainly won't get a spike, because both the battery and regulator output would be be instantly disconnected.
You don't understand what fused are designed for.. They are to protect wiring and nothing more.. In your case, if you get a short in the wire from the battery to regulator, you'll burn that wire and possibly cause a fire.. Max
That is exactly correct Max. If one wants to clamp the voltage or stop a surge, there are other devices made for that.
Quote from: Tsani on March 25, 2010, 06:24:42 AM
... in my trade, we generally feel and have observed that a fuse is voltage sensitive, more so than a breaker and in many cases blows quicker than the breaker trips. A fuse will blow every single time. I have seen cases where a breaker does not trip out.
Well, yeah. At twice the voltage they have half the rating, nominally. What you're saying is not so easy a statement to make so simply. Various types of fuses and breakers have various response characteristics.
[/quote]
Actually it is pretty simple to make. That breaker you use on your bike or in your car is not a very terribly sophisticated device. It will not "clamp" voltage and is not guaranteed to stop a spike, neither is a fuse for that matter. Fuses react to current flow, 20 amps is twenty amps be it 6, 12, 14 or 20 volts and fact is on average fuses can be 5 times faster blowing on a short than that breaker in your bike. Now if you want to retro fit one of the newer technology breakers in....whole different ball game. But have fun doing that. As Max stated, all the fuse or circuit braker does in this case is protect your wiring. And tho they stand a better chance with a fuse or breaker, damage can still occur to the electronics.
Actually it is pretty simple to make. That breaker you use on your bike or in your car is not a very terribly sophisticated device. It will not "clamp" voltage and is not guaranteed to stop a spike, neither is a fuse for that matter. Fuses react to current flow, 20 amps is twenty amps be it 6, 12, 14 or 20 volts and fact is on average fuses can be 5 times faster blowing on a short than that breaker in your bike. Now if you want to retro fit one of the newer technology breakers in....whole different ball game. But have fun doing that. As Max stated, all the fuse or circuit braker does in this case is protect your wiring. And tho they stand a better chance with a fuse or breaker, damage can still occur to the electronics.
[/quote]
Well, that takes away my warm and fuzzy for wanting to run a fuse. I was even giving some thought to running a manually reset type circuit breaker.
QuoteIn July 2009, while my bike was being dyno tuned, my bike experienced a voltage spike that took out the ECM, TSSM, speedometer, passing lamp switch, all the bulbs, Badland Run, Brake and Turn Module, Kuryakyn LED tail lights. The only plausible explanation is that the circuit breaker overheated and disconnected the circuit from the battery, but not from the alternator, which sent a voltage spike the fried all my electronics.
Did the head light blow??
My bet is that the bike lost the breaker and same time as the head light might have lost connection and the POS badlands brake slight thingy, fed the spike from the running light wiring back into the TSSM, killing the TSSM, ecm and speedo.. after market light thingy.. Leds.. etc...
Mayor You need to read this.. The after market break light / load / turn signal module must have been designed buy a EE that knows reliability... (or a tech that had engineer's disease) :wink:
Max
[/quote]
Yea, the head light bulb blew too. I run an Azure headlamp with a bulb.
QuoteIn your case, if you get a short in the wire from the battery to regulator, you'll burn that wire and possibly cause a fire.. Max
OK, and thank you. That does make sense.
Quote from: MaxHeadflow on March 25, 2010, 07:09:44 AM
Mayor You need to read this.. The after market break light / load / turn signal module must have been designed buy a EE that knows reliability... (or a tech that had engineer's disease) :wink:
Max
yea, I think it's a vast conspirecy for double E's to take over the world with faulty goods :teeth: they must be stopped at all costs (http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo256/wannabmayor/Smileys/throwstone.gif) (http://s381.photobucket.com/albums/oo256/wannabmayor/Smileys/?action=view¤t=throwstone.gif)
interesting...I'm starting to reconsider whether I will run a brake/turn module again on my efi bike.
Quote from: smoserx1 on March 25, 2010, 10:29:31 AM
QuoteIn your case, if you get a short in the wire from the battery to regulator, you'll burn that wire and possibly cause a fire.. Max
OK, and thank you. That does make sense.
Yeah, I grabed the wrong quote,,
QuoteThat way, if the fuse blows or the breaker trips, you certainly won't get a spike, because both the battery and regulator output would be be instantly disconnected.
This is the one I should have used.. Wasn't trying to pick on Glen, :wink: BTW HarleyinNH seems to have a good setup..
QuoteYea, the head light bulb blew too. I run an Azure headlamp with a bulb.
There is a bit of the chicken and the egg here.. Technically, the regulator should have stopped the voltage from getting too high. If you lost the battery connection through the circuit breaker, the rest of the system should be able to run until the Rs drop enough that the alt can't supply power then it shuts down.. The head lamp is part of the load.. If it blew about the same time the breaker let go while the motor was winding up to peak revs. .. The load just got unloaded. With Starting and stopping on the Dyno, the battery voltage was probably low. During testing so the regulator was WFO trying to charge the battery.. My guess is that it do not respond fast enough to the change in load and the damage cascaded.. Not sure whether it was the after market TS thing but automotive electronics are generally designed to have an 80 volt spike or more.. If the TS thingy backfed like I was saying it caused the probelm..
You asked me about this Red.. I told you it was improbable.. Now I say it's possible.
Here read this..
http://www.littelfuse.com/data/en/Application_Notes/an9312.pdf (http://www.littelfuse.com/data/en/Application_Notes/an9312.pdf)
You want to learn about fuses these guys are the ones..
Fuses versus breakers (didn't read it)
http://www.littelfuse.com/data/en/Technical_Articles/Fuses_vs_Breakers_Tech_Topic.pdf (http://www.littelfuse.com/data/en/Technical_Articles/Fuses_vs_Breakers_Tech_Topic.pdf)
Quotethey must be stopped at all costs
Only the primadonna ones. :wink:
Max
QuoteThere is a bit of the chicken and the egg here.. Technically, the regulator should have stopped the voltage from getting too high. If you lost the battery connection through the circuit breaker, the rest of the system should be able to run until the Rs drop enough that the alt can't supply power then it shuts down.. The head lamp is part of the load.. If it blew about the same time the breaker let go while the motor was winding up to peak revs. .. The load just got unloaded. With Starting and stopping on the Dyno, the battery voltage was probably low. During testing so the regulator was WFO trying to charge the battery.. My guess is that it do not respond fast enough to the change in load and the damage cascaded.. Not sure whether it was the after market TS thing but automotive electronics are generally designed to have an 80 volt spike or more.. If the TS thingy backfed like I was saying it caused the probelm.
You asked me about this Red.. I told you it was improbable.. Now I say it's possible.
If I remember the events of that tuning day, the tuner was running the bike at WOT, the bike shut down and he smelled smoke, then came out from the tuning booth and brought me in to explain what happened. The tuner who was also the service manager alleged that it was the Badlands module, the tech that was putting the bike back together thought it was the RB Racing air/fuel ratio gauge that shorted out (gauge face melted pretty good). Whereas I wasn't in the room and I'm not an electrical engineer, I was left with the dealership not taking responsibility.
I do remember it was a very expensive day :cry:. The only positive of the day, Steve Cole covered the cost of a new TTS. I then bought a used 2005 ECM, TSM and a Kilometer speedometer from the service manager to get me back on the road.
Max good article you posted (Fuses versus breakers)
http://www.littelfuse.com/data/en/Technical_Articles/Fuses_vs_Breakers_Tech_Topic.pdf (http://www.littelfuse.com/data/en/Technical_Articles/Fuses_vs_Breakers_Tech_Topic.pdf)
Quote from: MaxHeadflow on March 25, 2010, 01:06:10 PM
QuoteThat way, if the fuse blows or the breaker trips, you certainly won't get a spike, because both the battery and regulator output would be be instantly disconnected.
This is the one I should have used.. Wasn't trying to pick on Glen
I was puzzled too. Heck, I don't remember anymore, but I thought I'd suggested they connect the alternator wire into the circuit to the normal place through a relay. It wouldn't melt any more wires between the maxifuse and battery under any condition whatsoever than the stock schematic would.
I don't like it when you pick on me. My mommy's too far away.
Quote from: glens on March 23, 2010, 09:40:06 PM
Why does it need an external reference?
I'm banned so can't see anymore the larger images in http://www.hdtalking.com/electrical/21993-a_peek_inside_a_black_box.html (http://www.hdtalking.com/electrical/21993-a_peek_inside_a_black_box.html)
I'm pretty sure he referenced a second page of schematic but didn't include it for some reason. I'm going to pull my regulator plug tomorrow and fire up the bike, measuring the output voltage. I'm betting it'll be less than 15 volts DC.
Boy this thread has grown. I'll admit to not having read every post yet. However, someone asked why the 2nd fuse.
If your main circuit breaker (or fuse) blows, it simply disconnects the battery from all of the motorcycles' electronics. GREAT, you might say. That would avoid any damaged wiring should a short occur that one of the small fuses couldn't catch (like the main B+ wire under the tank to the ingition switch).
But, there's a potential problem. If the fuse (or breaker) blows, the motor is supposed to die. When the motor dies, the alternator quits producing voltage. This theory is supposed to protect your motorcycle's wiring from burning. Fuse blows, disconnecting the battery, motor dies, no more current.
What it, though, you're at 80 mph and you leave the clutch out? Motor dies, but is still spinning with the alternator/regulator still producing electrical current at up to 45 amps. The second fuse I installed is to further protect the motorcycle's wiring. One should blow. Then the other one if the over-current problem is still there.
It should also be noted that HD's fuse (or circuit breaker) breaks the wire between the battery and motorcycle's wiring, leaving the charging system still connected. The shop manual states that one should never disconnect the battery while the engine is running, else damage to electrical components could occur.
That's exactly what happend to me 3 years ago and prompted me to design and install the 2-fuse protection system. My circuit breaker tripped, a voltage spike hit all of the electronic devices. My breaker tripped and reset several times in the matter of a few seconds. I was at 50 mph with the clutch out. Each time it tripped, it produced or had the potential to produce voltage spikes as the battery was disconnected and reconnected each time. The result was $1,200 in damage to electrical components. TSSM, Speedo, Tach, Radio, and a few other components were victims of the voltage spike.
So, I said, "nevermore"; and put in the 2-fuse system. It has worked flawlessly since. The 40-amp Maxi fuses have never blown.
I now would think as a matter of safety there should be a fuse from the voltage regulator. The wires to the ignition switch and the wires from the ignition switch to the fuse block are not protected. If any of these wires chaffe through and short, they will keep arcing and burning as they are fed by the alternator. You could have a little fire on top off your gas tank! or anywhere in the wire harness that these unprotected wires run.
QuoteThe wires to the ignition switch and the wires from the ignition switch to the fuse block are not protected. If any of these wires chaffe through and short, they will keep arcing and burning as they are fed by the alternator.
Actually, you don't have to worry about this if you size the wire correctly.. The alternator is current limited at what 40-45 amps.. All you have to do is size the wire so that it can handle the current. The main thing you need to worry about is the battery that can put out 10 times the current for a short period of time easy..
Max
Quote from: MaxHeadflow on March 28, 2010, 07:22:03 AM
QuoteThe wires to the ignition switch and the wires from the ignition switch to the fuse block are not protected. If any of these wires chaffe through and short, they will keep arcing and burning as they are fed by the alternator.
Actually, you don't have to worry about this if you size the wire correctly.. The alternator is current limited at what 40-45 amps.. All you have to do is size the wire so that it can handle the current. The main thing you need to worry about is the battery that can put out 10 times the current for a short period of time easy..
Max
The wire seems to be improperly sized, in my opinion. It is, at best, #12 stranded. I'm not an electrician, but in house wiring, #12 wire is protected by a 20-amp breaker. I don't know, it may be rated higher for DC current than AC current. (defies logic, though). There is always a measurable voltage drop between the battery and the fuse block, I assume from the resistance of the B+ wire that runs back and forth under the tank.
I was going to replace the main power wiring with #8 stranded (good for at least 40 amps); even bought wire; but it turned out to be too tough of a job, considering that every Electra Glide is wired the same as mine and they get along just fine. I scrapped the project.
QuoteThe wire seems to be improperly sized, in my opinion. It is, at best, #12 stranded. I'm not an electrician, but in house wiring, #12 wire is protected by a 20-amp breaker.
Well technically it's not.
http://wiki.xtronics.com/index.php/Wire-Gauge_Ampacity (http://wiki.xtronics.com/index.php/Wire-Gauge_Ampacity)
If you look here a 12 gauge wire can handle 41 amps continuous in free air.. The wire can go way higher surges if necessary. You also see on the table that bundled wire stead state current is way less.
QuoteI don't know, it may be rated higher for DC current than AC current.
If you compare RMS current to DC current they are
defined as being the same.. The issue is that when you talk watts in an AC system you need to understand power factor which can increase current.. Still 10 amps DC = 10 amps AC (rms).. The big thing is with the sizing of wire in houses is voltage drop.. The supply to your house is that big transformer sitting on the pole down the street.. If you want that microwave to run and still have florescent light working.. You need to size the wire appropriately.
Max
Wiring for automotive use s rated differently. Not the same as a house, etc. Even Marine wiring is rated differently. Think in terms of watts or power that a wire can handle and things change accordanly. Here is a site you can check to give you an idea for your bikes:
http://www.tessco.com/yts/industry/products/itm/automotive/get_wired.html (http://www.tessco.com/yts/industry/products/itm/automotive/get_wired.html)
Another thing to keep in mind with your bikes is it is about the total wiring length, supply side, load then ground. All comes into play.
Who has a source or link to the fuse holders KENR used in post #9.
Quote from: Bagger on March 28, 2010, 10:33:18 AM
Who has a source or link to the fuse holders KENR used in post #9.
I got mine down the street at Pep Boys. I think AutoZone has 'em, too. They're made by Littelfuse.
This may be them (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000CODTNE/ref=asc_df_B000CODTNE1070455?tag=the004-20&creative=380333&creativeASIN=B000CODTNE&linkCode=asn)
Quote from: Ken R on March 27, 2010, 04:30:19 PM
If the fuse (or breaker) blows, the motor is supposed to die.
I missed that part in the instructions.
QuoteWhen the motor dies, the alternator quits producing voltage. This theory is supposed to protect your motorcycle's wiring from burning. Fuse blows, disconnecting the battery, motor dies, no more current.
Sounds good if true. Are you sure that's what's supposed to happen if you lose a maxifuse/breaker during normal operation?
QuoteWhat it, though, you're at 80 mph and you leave the clutch out? Motor dies, but is still spinning with the alternator/regulator still producing electrical current at up to 45 amps. The second fuse I installed is to further protect the motorcycle's wiring. One should blow. Then the other one if the over-current problem is still there.
I'll agree with that. After all, I guess we're just assuming the voltage regulator has or has-not any sort of overcurrent protection within itself?
QuoteIt should also be noted that HD's fuse (or circuit breaker) breaks the wire between the battery and motorcycle's wiring, leaving the charging system still connected. The shop manual states that one should never disconnect the battery while the engine is running, else damage to electrical components could occur.
That's still the "current" connection scheme according to the '09 service and electrical PDFs I just electronically searched through. Warnings or statements like you say just there, however, are not present in either of them.
Actually that rather surprised me because the danger in doing that (pulling a battery lead from a running bike) is that in the event the battery was heavily charging, there would (historically?) be a fair amount of hydrogen gas present, which a spark could ignite. Right?
QuoteMy circuit breaker tripped, a voltage spike hit all of the electronic devices. My breaker tripped and reset several times in the matter of a few seconds. I was at 50 mph with the clutch out. Each time it tripped, it produced or had the potential to produce voltage spikes as the battery was disconnected and reconnected each time. The result was $1,200 in damage to electrical components. TSSM, Speedo, Tach, Radio, and a few other components were victims of the voltage spike.
I'm sorry that happened to you. So you've sussed this out and concluded that putting an extra maxifuse in the charging circuit would prevent it from recurring.
How about instead of two
fuses, if the
breaker were left in place in conjunction with an additional charging-feed fuse? Would that combination have availed you any better protection than what you had?
Like I suggested above, I'd sure think the regulator had some internal means of overcurrent protection/limiting. I submit that what'd happened to you was solely the fault of the breaker. Voltage spikes from the charging system loading/unloading? Yeah, perhaps some of that went on, but with a fuse in place of the breaker, the circuit wouldn't re-close. I wonder if the breaker contacts repeatedly arcing might've introduced an unfavorable "rasp" to the power and
that's what took out your electronics.
By the way, what was the reason the breaker tripped? Had you a short in the loom somewhere or was it just a weak unit? Was the battery shorting internally causing the charging circuit to overload the breaker? Which kind of brings up another thought. If you
had a short somewhere causing this much breaker action, wouldn't the short have pretty much taken care of the spikes for you (if not on the battery side of the breaker)?
I still don't understand why the engine would die if the breaker or maxi fuse blew with the stock wiring configuration. The output wire from the regulator essentially bypasses the breaker/fuse altogether and attaches to the ignition switch feed (the B+ wire?) downstream of the breaker/fuse. It looks like the electrical system of the bike would continue to receive power from the charging system, even if the breaker/fuse failed. All that does is disconnect the battery. Of course the current with no battery present would have a ripple waveform to it, and you would not have the battery present to help smooth the ripple. I have read the battery helps smooth the ripple.
The paper Max pointed us to earlier in this thread explained very well why the spike occurs when the battery is disconnected with the engine running. The paper refers to that scenario as a "load dump." Here it is again if anybody missed it:
http://www.littelfuse.com/data/en/Application_Notes/an9312.pdf (http://www.littelfuse.com/data/en/Application_Notes/an9312.pdf)
But that text is in terms of field excitation current which we don't have.
Glens, I did finally find out why the circuit breaker was tripping . . . .and it wasn't because of an over-current condition. It was the crimp connector on the little 12 ga wire that attaches to the output side of the breaker. The crimp connector developed a slight electrical resistance that disipated power in the form of heat. Being connected directly to the circuit breaker, the heat was conducted directly into the circuit breaker.
After all the repairs to fix the problem, I was not happy at all. I'd treated the symptoms but had done nothing about the root cause of the failure. Fretted over it for weeks. I remember touching the circuit breaker and it burned my finger. "Hmmmmmm," (right after "Ouch, that's really hot!")
I measured the circuit breaker temperature at almost 100C at times. Thought it was coming from the engine and rear cylinder exhaust pipe. The breaker would be very hot to the touch. I tried a lot of things to thermally isolate the breaker from the frame. Then, a little light bulb went off in my head. Why is the circuit breaker the only thing in the area so hot? The bulkhead between the exhaust and the breaker wasn't even as hot!
Sure enough, it was the crimp connection lug. The circuit breaker de-rates to about half its stated value in such hot conditions. Well, duh!
I think this is the original problem with the 40-amp breakers that HD had the call-back (or bulletin) all the time. It wasn't that the breaker was of insufficient rating, but that it got hot from the crimp connector. That's why so many that put the 50-amp breakers in still had intermittent tripping. (like me).
I was between Boulder and Denver. Waited at a long stoplight with brakes on, then accelerated away and got almost to the 60mph speed limit. Then, everything went dead and the motorcycle began to slow with the clutch out. Before I could do anything, it came back alive. Did this 2 or 3 more times; never recovered from the last time. Ended our cruising the mountains a little early. Trailered back to Dallas and began to diagnose all the stuff that was damaged by what I assume were high voltage spikes each time the breaker let go.
Ken that makes alot of sense. Also you are right there should not need to be a recall for the 40 amp circuit breaker because the alternator is feeding the bike through the load side of the breaker, therefore very little current should be flowing through the CB. The only current flowing through it at say highway speed would be the small current back feeding to the battery to keep it "topped or charged" up. And at idle the small supplementary current that the accesories need that the alternator may not be able to keep up with. Still this is very little current flowing through the CB in either direction. So why the recall? Bad connectors?
I had the breaker recall done, left on a trip, rode 11.3 miles bike shut down, fired up rode all day no problem, next morning, 11.3 miles, shuts down again. stopped at a dealer in Peoria, they put in another breaker, and thats all they could do since it was not tripping. next morning, 11.3 miles again,, poof died again, and shorted out the radio. got to another dealer in Iowa. they tried a new breaker, mech rode it the next morning,,, yep 11.3 miles and poof. they had it in the shop 3 days. wife got fed up and called harley. they told the dealer to recrimp all the heavy wires around the battery box. got the radio replaced. and we were on our way again. weird huh.
I have a '99 Ultra that I converted to the newer style 3 phase charging system used since 2006. I'm thinking of replacing my circuit breaker with a maxi fuse. Would the dual maxi fuse setup in this thread be of any value on a 3 phase system or does the type of regulator used on a 3 phase system eliminate the need for something like this?
Nope, Nope,
Max
A double nope? It would be of no use on one hand, and the 3 phase regulator doesn't eliminate the need for something like this? Does that mean this circuitry is flawed to begin with and of no real benefit?
Quote from: Dagwood on March 21, 2012, 09:36:29 AM
A double nope? It would be of no use on one hand, and the 3 phase regulator doesn't eliminate the need for something like this? Does that mean this circuitry is flawed to begin with and of no real benefit?
It depends on now many lights you plan on running.. :wink: The 3 phase should be more reliable.. also..(by design)
Max