My 113 SG '06 has a stock clutch with a vp92c. I've started getting hints of clutch slippage and thought I'd nip it in the bud before I do sturgis. I installed the Energy One plates and am now getting horrendous slippage. The same spring and vpc are used in each set-up. I've used mtl in the primary for years. I soaked the friction plates for about 30 minutes before installation. Why is this slipping more with the E1's?
cuz deys junk? Max
Energy One recommends B&M trick shift for their clutches. Might make a difference.
I have to agree with Max (junk) dont care much for vpc either
I have had very good luck with my E1 VPC setup, no problems what so ever. Never have I read that they are junk before, so you junk na sayers question for you both have you run the E1 with the extra plate or are you just sounding off at the mouth?
Quoteor are you just sounding off at the mouth?
Well personally I'm blowin' it out my ass.. Max
Give Lee a call at Jarz in Abbotsford, BC, Canada
They sell and install many of them.
I tried one last season slipped in 4th thru 6th from day one replaced with se problem solved put the E 1s in a 95 incher without problems
They also make & supply clutches for many different manufacturers. Their paperwork I've seen specifically states not to use synthetic fluids.TK.
So, what about the 37980-10 SE Perf. Friction Disc kit?
waskier,
I have the E1 extra plate setup with their spring, and it works well (of course, my 95" isn't puttin' the stress to it like your 113" is). Anyways, I called E1 before I installed it and they told me that just about any lube will work except for Syn3.
They told me that their instructions say "no synthetics" because if they said "no Syn3" the H-D lawyers would go berserk, and who needs that? They also told me that they have found B&M Trickshift to be "the best" for their clutches, but the difference is marginal. That marginal difference might just be enough to hook it up in your application?
I guess if I were you, I'd have to try it. A bottle of fluid is a whole lot cheaper and easier than changing out the clutch plates. Good luck.
I'm just having a hard time with the fact that this set-up is slipping noticably more than with the stockers.
Prolly a silly question, and please don't take offense.... but did you read the instructions? When I installed mine, after removing the stock frictions and steels, I had to remove 2 little metal rings (called "spring-something-or-other"), and if I remember correctly, a friction went in first. If you inadvertently left those 2 rings in there, I'm guessing that could change things drastically.
I only ask because if I hadn't read the instructions, I would have just pulled the old plates, put the new ones in, and never given a thought to those 2 pieces that were to be removed. I guess it could happen to anyone.
EDIT: The 2 pieces I removed were "Damper Spring" and "Seat, Damper Spring" per my parts manual.
The OEM clutch will have 1 odd friction plate that will
have a larger inside diameter to accommodate a judder spring and seat that will fit inside that 1 odd plate. You remove all of those pieces and do NOT reuse them with this kit
Dan he is pretty sharp sure he has that covered
I experienced the same issue (slippage) with my 98" after replacing stock clutch plates with E1. Changed out the syn I had in it to B&M and it stopped. Can't say it will work for you but it did for me. Yep, I run a VPC and am very happy with it.
Rick
First of all, Energy One ain't junk. Know of a few 9 second drag bike HD's running Energy One plates. If they can handle that much HP, they can handle 110-120 HP from a 113" street bike.
Kent at Energy One recommends the first thing you can do if you are getting clutch slippage is to remove (if it's in there) the Syn3 fluid from the primary. Remove all the plates, frictions and steels, and clean and wipe dry with lacquer thinner. Also inspect friction plates for high spots. If your kit has a double riveted steel plate, and if you are looking for performance, you want to remove that plate. This will allow you to accomodate one more friction and one more steel plate (more friction plates=more grip). And also when that double riveted steel plate finally comes apart (meaning the rivets break and come loose), it can destroy quite a bit of stuff inside. Also, before you reinstall, check the overall stack height for frictions and steels should be 1.835-1.850" for the later year twin cams-check instruction sheet for your application. Use B&M Trickshift, Red Line, Amsoil.
I read the instructions and then started pulling the clutch apart. I had some questions about the little judder (belvil) sping and flat plate, and dialed E1 to ask some questions. I dialed for 90 minutes and got no answer. 2:30-4;00 pst. I pulled the two little rings and odd friction disc out. No double riveted steel plate. I started with a friction disc and ended with a friction disc. This primary has never seen syn3, but 15000 miles ago I pulled out the HD tech+ primary fluid.
I have a set on the way for my bike
I typically use MTL, Mine hits hard on the bottom too similar setup. I am slipping now until the VPC kicks in with a VPC92 and 37951-98 spring.
I have called E1 and they don't answer :scratch:
Paul
Thanks for the info.
The only other thing I can add is that 2 years ago while on the road, my bike lunched a rotor and I had to have it fixed at a H-D dealership. They of course had no Trickshift and put in Formula+ (H-D standard primary lube). The clutch just didn't feel quite the same, and when I got home I changed it back to Trickshift (although I didn't pull it apart and clean anything) and it felt back to normal. For my money, the Trickshift really seems to make a difference, although that could easily be just my perception and wishful thinking.
The Trickshift is not the best choice with the known issues of the SE compensator on the late models.
I lied... one more thing. I installed the E1 clutch at the recommendation of Brian @ Valley Racing. Brian is a highly experienced engine builder, road racer, drag racer, MX racer, and maybe even a pencil E racer. Some pretty serious stuff comes outta that shop.
(pencil E racer.... bwaahahaa... I kill me sometimes)
Just got off the phone with Kent at E1. He said to remove the "jutter spring" (the metal rings Big Dan mentioned) and run just plates and steels all the way back. They also make the extra plate kit for even more surface area, and also you can upgrade to a 25% stronger spring kit as well.
I changed the stack height numbers on my previous message, as it was for another year and model bike. Instructions should have the stack height guidelines with each kit for each year and type of bike.
Paul
One other interesting relevant point
The jutter spring actually is part of the clamp force. So remove that and you now have less clamp force all the rest of the things being equal but more friction area.
I will use their spring when I do mine.
Energy 1 extra plate kit, their spring and Formula+ ....only a 105TQ 95" but no problem in my Ultra Classic.
Quote from: Deweysheads on August 04, 2010, 10:45:36 AM
Paul
One other interesting relevant point
The jutter spring actually is part of the clamp force. So remove that and you now have less clamp force all the rest of the things being equal but more friction area.
I will use their spring when I do mine.
Not sure how the judder spring is part of the clamp force.. It is designed to preload part off the clutch to give a more progressive feel.
The clutch slipping could be the result of oil but I'd suspect a stack up issue also..
Max
Whats your clutch stack up height?
You can have anyones new clutch plates and if the stackup is not correct they will SLIPPPPP....
They should stack flush with the top of the clutch basket. Max below flush is .050" down... beyond that anything can and will slip...
I told him to check and we will mix and match steels to get it up if need be
I'd go along with Max on the judder spring giving a more progressive feel. Mine is either engaged, or it is disengaged. I can feather it, but it takes a very light hand, and even then it tries to just hook up hard. That's not a complaint by any means. I like this clutch a lot.
:agree: Dan mine hooks up real nice :up:
IME:
Even with the 10 plate EO and VPC 92 the early arrival 120-140 foot pounders need a heavier clutch spring.
Effective centrifugal advantage for the VPC needs 3000 RPM (engine) or so.
A 380 lb spring is available from EO.
A 480 lb spring is available from AIM (the VPC folks).
As mentioned, stack up height is very important.
A move from syn to non-syn can help too.
Beyond this, go with a Bandit or similar.
Quote from: waskier01 on August 03, 2010, 09:22:05 PM
My 113 SG '06 has a stock clutch with a vp92c. I've started getting hints of clutch slippage and thought I'd nip it in the bud before I do sturgis. I installed the Energy One plates and am now getting horrendous slippage. The same spring and vpc are used in each set-up. I've used mtl in the primary for years. I soaked the friction plates for about 30 minutes before installation. Why is this slipping more with the E1's?
I did receive a call today on this exact problem and hope the symptoms that you are having and the information I give you will help alleviate the problem.
If the bike is several years old and has 40,000 miles or more, ALWAYS replace the clutch spring. Don't just put in new frictions and steels and expect everything to work fine. The spring is a large part of the clutch. Without the proper engagement you will not get full clutch action. Basically, the material that they use for the diaphragm spring isn't the best material - not that the same material they use for valve springs. The spring from getting hot/cold hot/cold will eventually lose its tension. So yes, you can have the proper stack height which is 1.835" to 1.850" and these are OEM specs which we build our kits by - and if the spring has lost some of its tension, then it will not apply the proper tension, therefore resulting in clutch slippage at certain RPMs.
I hope this helps. Not trying to create waves, just trying to help solve the issue.
If you have any problems with any clutches of any year, or belt drive units, we do make the plates for BDL, Rivera Primo, Baker, Sputhe, Bandit and Karata, we are happy to help when we can. I am only saying this because I get a lot of calls on Big Dog bikes - which the early models are Rivera Primo and the late models are Baker.
Thanks for all the kind and positive words.
Kent
ENERGY ONE CLUTCHES
www.energyoneclutches.com (http://www.energyoneclutches.com)
562-698-7809
Thanks for the reply.. BDL huh?? Kool..
Max
.....and mention HTT when you order :wink:
stack up was 1.844 and I installed a new SE spring. Still slipped. I installed a new SE Friction/Disc kit with the same SE plate, and no slipping. SE stackup was 1.850. I leave for sturgis in six hours.
Quote from: Sonny S. on August 04, 2010, 08:49:11 PM
.....and mention HTT when you order :wink:
And if I mention it's Max, He'll hangup... :embarrassed: Max
Max, Isn't that SOP for most after your first call? :hyst:
Sorry couldn't resist. :potstir: Rick
QuoteMax, Isn't that SOP for most after your first call?
Probably,,, Max
Quote from: MaxHeadflow on August 04, 2010, 09:17:02 PM
Quote from: Sonny S. on August 04, 2010, 08:49:11 PM
.....and mention HTT when you order :wink:
And if I mention it's Max, He'll hangup... :embarrassed: Max
:hyst:
1450 miles to get to sturgis and the SE had zero noticable slippage. I'll have to check stack-up when I get home.
They musta new I was going to contact them.. They closed up shop.. Max