02 FLSTC with gear drives, looking to upgrade pump maybe don't need to change plate. Been reading the new plates don't have bushings, also read alot of controversy pro's and con's. question is should I just put a new pump or should I do both, and which ones are preferable Feuling or SE. :nix:
I just used my stock cam plate and put on a Feuling oil pump on a '06 with gear drive cams. Plenty of pressure and no problems.
Bigs
STOCK PLATE
Stock oil pump if it is good. If the pump needs to be replaced then we move to another plan.
Scott: And if you are replacing the oil pump, which cam plate and oil pump do you recommend.
Blazin'
Does anyone know where I can get a reamer for the camplate bushing? JIMS doesn't make one and I haven't been able to find anyone that does. Anybody?
Quote from: Blazing Saddles on March 13, 2011, 08:38:37 PM
Scott: And if you are replacing the oil pump, which cam plate and oil pump do you recommend.
Blazin'
We just stay with the OE.
Never have/had any issues with those.
Can't say that, about the other stuff out there.
Scott
Just my opinion..........
I went with the R&R billet cam plate and newer HD '07 and up oil pump.
R&R bilit cam plate, 99-06 twin cam for use with newer style 07 and up HD oil pump # 26037-06 and only gear drive cams. Includes can bearing support plate
Part # 13-1002
I just fixed up a 95" mess and installed the fueling pump and plate. It was so awesome at pumping oil that i had to drain 20 oz from the crankcase. Not the first time ive had that problem with those pumps. Back in with the stock parts. Problem solved.
Quote from: aharp on March 14, 2011, 04:51:43 AM
I just fixed up a 95" mess and installed the fueling pump and plate. It was so awesome at pumping oil that i had to drain 20 oz from the crankcase. Not the first time ive had that problem with those pumps. Back in with the stock parts. Problem solved.
20 oz!!! Holy smokes, that ain't good. What caused the wet sumping, was you able to figure it out besides going back to the stock parts? I would think with both the Fueling plate and pump it would have been just the opposite. I was just thinking about getting a Fueling plate so I'm curious as to what happened with yours before I decide to flop down the money. Thanks.
Quote from: ΚĜΗΟŜΤ on March 14, 2011, 04:12:25 AM
Just my opinion..........
I went with the R&R billet cam plate and newer HD '07 and up oil pump.
R&R bilit cam plate, 99-06 twin cam for use with newer style 07 and up HD oil pump # 26037-06 and only gear drive cams. Includes can bearing support plate
Part # 13-1002
They now have a #13-1003 internal plate for hydraulic chain.
Quote from: KingofCubes on March 14, 2011, 12:01:06 PM
Quote from: ΚĜΗΟŜΤ on March 14, 2011, 04:12:25 AM
Just my opinion..........
I went with the R&R billet cam plate and newer HD '07 and up oil pump.
R&R bilit cam plate, 99-06 twin cam for use with newer style 07 and up HD oil pump # 26037-06 and only gear drive cams. Includes can bearing support plate
Part # 13-1002
They now have a #13-1003 internal plate for hydraulic chain.
Just installed one nice pc
Will gear drives work with an 06 and up new style cam plate?
Quote from: TA63 on March 14, 2011, 01:47:07 PM
Will gear drives work with an 06 and up new style cam plate?
yes but you will have to use block off plates over the oil feeds for the tensioners. they are available from S&S and also Andrews.
Quote from: aharp on March 14, 2011, 04:51:43 AM
I just fixed up a 95" mess and installed the fueling pump and plate. It was so awesome at pumping oil that i had to drain 20 oz from the crankcase. Not the first time ive had that problem with those pumps. Back in with the stock parts. Problem solved.
Any reason why they can't get the return side to work as well, so it evens out? Scavange side is twice of what the feed side is. I don't understand why this problem occurs.
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on March 14, 2011, 04:38:23 PM
Quote from: aharp on March 14, 2011, 04:51:43 AM
I just fixed up a 95" mess and installed the fueling pump and plate. It was so awesome at pumping oil that i had to drain 20 oz from the crankcase. Not the first time ive had that problem with those pumps. Back in with the stock parts. Problem solved.
Any reason why they can't get the return side to work as well, so it evens out? Scavange side is twice of what the feed side is. I don't understand why this problem occurs.
Ron
I dont either Ron. My gut was telling me to talk the guy out of it because of my past experiences with them but he wanted them.
Quote from: aharp on March 14, 2011, 05:44:01 PM
Quote from: rbabos on March 14, 2011, 04:38:23 PM
Quote from: aharp on March 14, 2011, 04:51:43 AM
I just fixed up a 95" mess and installed the fueling pump and plate. It was so awesome at pumping oil that i had to drain 20 oz from the crankcase. Not the first time ive had that problem with those pumps. Back in with the stock parts. Problem solved.
Any reason why they can't get the return side to work as well, so it evens out? Scavange side is twice of what the feed side is. I don't understand why this problem occurs.
Ron
I dont either Ron. My gut was telling me to talk the guy out of it because of my past experiences with them but he wanted them.
Oh well. It's good to know things like this can jump up and bite you, whatever the cause is. No wave spring on these either, so not likely going into my softail any time soon.
Ron
Quote from: ΚĜΗΟŜΤ on March 14, 2011, 04:12:25 AM
Just my opinion..........
I went with the R&R billet cam plate and newer HD '07 and up oil pump.
R&R bilit cam plate, 99-06 twin cam for use with newer style 07 and up HD oil pump # 26037-06 and only gear drive cams. Includes can bearing support plate
Part # 13-1002
On their sight it says mods are required to run gear driven cams other than theirs. Anyone know exactly what those mods are?
I should have added to my post above that I have a HD oil cooler and once the Feuling pump was installed it ran about 20 deg. lower oil temperature.
Bigs
Quote from: Bigs on March 16, 2011, 04:27:38 PM
I should have added to my post above that I have a HD oil cooler and once the Feuling pump was installed it ran about 20 deg. lower oil temperature.
Bigs
Yeah but it not cuz of the pressure..
Max
Quote from: Bigs on March 16, 2011, 04:27:38 PM
I should have added to my post above that I have a HD oil cooler and once the Feuling pump was installed it ran about 20 deg. lower oil temperature.
Bigs
More oil volume moving through the engine and better scavenging of the crankcase. This removes more heat from the engine.
QuoteThis removes more heat from the engine.
Bet it don't. The more volume and better scavenging get the oil through the motor faster so it has lass chance to pick up the heat.. If it removed more heat from the engine, wouldn't the oil be hotter?? (then the motor would be cooler.. :wink: ) After all it don't reduce the amount of heat the motor creates.
Max
Quote from: MaxHeadflow on March 16, 2011, 08:51:27 PM
QuoteThis removes more heat from the engine.
Bet it don't. The more volume and better scavenging get the oil through the motor faster so it has lass chance to pick up the heat.. If it removed more heat from the engine, wouldn't the oil be hotter?? (then the motor would be cooler.. :wink: ) After all it don't reduce the amount of heat the motor creates.
Max
There are different ways to imagine the process but if you actually measure the temperature of the oil being returned to the tank you'd find that it's significantly hotter than the supply side. The tank radiates heat effectively cooling the oil going back on the supply side (heat transfer). It's difficult to measure this on Touring and Dyna models due to the integral oil tank / pan but on a bike with a remote tank you can actually determine return VS supply by touching the oil lines and feeling the temperature variance. The return side is noticeably hotter and supply side cooler. Oil tank flow or in the case of the oil pan, the baffles, restrict and direct flow and actually keep the oil in the tank long enough to shed some heat before being returned to the engine. I've checked return and supply temps using a digital thermocouple on hot days and have measured temperature variances of up to 50 degree F. Adding an oil cooler adds more volume and does a better job of radiating heat.
Important: Improved scavenging of the crankcase assists cooling by reducing the friction and workload generated by running the flywheels in an oil bath.
Quote from: MaxHeadflow on March 16, 2011, 04:42:28 PM
Quote from: Bigs on March 16, 2011, 04:27:38 PM
I should have added to my post above that I have a HD oil cooler and once the Feuling pump was installed it ran about 20 deg. lower oil temperature.
Bigs
Yeah but it not cuz of the pressure..
Max
OK. Why don't you explain?
Quote from: MaxHeadflow on March 16, 2011, 08:51:27 PM
QuoteThis removes more heat from the engine.
Bet it don't. The more volume and better scavenging get the oil through the motor faster so it has lass chance to pick up the heat.. If it removed more heat from the engine, wouldn't the oil be hotter?? (then the motor would be cooler.. :wink: ) After all it don't reduce the amount of heat the motor creates.
Max
You're getting close but didn't consider a couple of other important aspects on this subject. Are you asking, sharing or just being argumentative??
QuoteYou're getting close but didn't consider a couple of other important aspects on this subject. Are you asking, sharing or just being argumentative??
Which aspects are those are those? Not argumentative but getting the discussion going..
QuoteThere are different ways to imagine the process
This would be better written' as "There are different ways to analyze the process" It you want to figure out what is really going on you need to analyze and test..
Draw a box around any part of the system and look for heat sources and heat dumps. Energy that flow into the box will equal energy flowing out once the temperature is stable..
Quote from: Superglidesport1 on March 17, 2011, 03:51:38 AM
Quote from: MaxHeadflow on March 16, 2011, 04:42:28 PM
Quote from: Bigs on March 16, 2011, 04:27:38 PM
I should have added to my post above that I have a HD oil cooler and once the Feuling pump was installed it ran about 20 deg. lower oil temperature.
Bigs
Yeah but it not cuz of the pressure..
Max
OK. Why don't you explain?
I thought I said it here..
QuoteThe more volume and better scavenging gets the oil through the motor faster so it has lass chance to pick up the heat.
QuoteThere are different ways to imagine the process but if you actually measure the temperature of the oil being returned to the tank you'd find that it's significantly hotter than the supply side.
I would certainly hope so. I'm not sure where this is going.. What points are trying to be made.. Part of the purpose of the oil tank is to radiate heat.. Not sure you need to prove it.. But that is OK.. I guess you need to make sure that the oil stays in the tank long enough to radiate the heat but we were talking about oil flow in the motor..
Quoterestrict and direct flow
Bad choice of words here.. You don't want an oil tank restricting flow on the feed side..
QuoteImportant: Improved scavenging of the crankcase assists cooling by reducing the friction and workload generated by running the flywheels in an oil bath.
Absolutely.. Also the less time oil stays in the motor, (it won't get whipped up in the cam case) the less chance of it absorbing heat.
Max
max must b unda presha..
Quote from: machinist on March 17, 2011, 02:10:33 PM
max must b unda presha..
Now I got the David Bowie song stuck in my head.. :dgust: Max
Quote from: MaxHeadflow on March 17, 2011, 07:54:34 AM
QuoteYou're getting close but didn't consider a couple of other important aspects on this subject. Are you asking, sharing or just being argumentative??
Which aspects are those are those? Not argumentative but getting the discussion going..
QuoteThere are different ways to imagine the process
This would be better written' as "There are different ways to analyze the process" It you want to figure out what is really going on you need to analyze and test..
Draw a box around any part of the system and look for heat sources and heat dumps. Energy that flow into the box will equal energy flowing out once the temperature is stable..
Quote from: Superglidesport1 on March 17, 2011, 03:51:38 AM
Quote from: MaxHeadflow on March 16, 2011, 04:42:28 PM
Quote from: Bigs on March 16, 2011, 04:27:38 PM
I should have added to my post above that I have a HD oil cooler and once the Feuling pump was installed it ran about 20 deg. lower oil temperature.
Bigs
Yeah but it not cuz of the pressure..
Max
OK. Why don't you explain?
I thought I said it here..
QuoteThe more volume and better scavenging gets the oil through the motor faster so it has lass chance to pick up the heat.
QuoteThere are different ways to imagine the process but if you actually measure the temperature of the oil being returned to the tank you'd find that it's significantly hotter than the supply side.
I would certainly hope so. I'm not sure where this is going.. What points are trying to be made.. Part of the purpose of the oil tank is to radiate heat.. Not sure you need to prove it.. But that is OK.. I guess you need to make sure that the oil stays in the tank long enough to radiate the heat but we were talking about oil flow in the motor..
Quoterestrict and direct flow
Bad choice of words here.. You don't want an oil tank restricting flow on the feed side..
QuoteImportant: Improved scavenging of the crankcase assists cooling by reducing the friction and workload generated by running the flywheels in an oil bath.
Absolutely.. Also the less time oil stays in the motor, (it won't get whipped up in the cam case) the less chance of it absorbing heat.
Max
Max, I'll defer on debating your points as I try not to waste my time. I do attempt to assist and offer advise based on practical and successful experience. You however appear to have too much time on your hands and offer little in the form of advice and assistance.
I used to know great guy who had a lot to offer and share. Unfortunately, after he quit racing, he turned into a bitter critic with a bad attitude.
I went out riding today, all day and had a really great time!
Frank
So giving up in the intellectual stuff eh?
I guess standing in line to get the after market bolt on stuff is the way to go..
Max
Quote from: Bigs on March 13, 2011, 02:52:11 PM
I just used my stock cam plate and put on a Feuling oil pump on a '06 with gear drive cams. Plenty of pressure and no problems.
Bigs
I have been running the same in my 06 great o/pressure no problems
Quote from: Tbones on March 14, 2011, 05:38:29 AM
Quote from: aharp on March 14, 2011, 04:51:43 AM
I just fixed up a 95" mess and installed the fueling pump and plate. It was so awesome at pumping oil that i had to drain 20 oz from the crankcase. Not the first time ive had that problem with those pumps. Back in with the stock parts. Problem solved.
20 oz!!! Holy smokes, that ain't good. What caused the wet sumping, was you able to figure it out besides going back to the stock parts? I would think with both the Fueling plate and pump it would have been just the opposite. I was just thinking about getting a Fueling plate so I'm curious as to what happened with yours before I decide to flop down the money. Thanks.
*********************************************
Hey T. I like the KIT that HD sell for 429$$.. depending on your engine model and year?
I used the Fueling pump on my 2ooo FXDS hot rod.. Liked it very much also used the Delkron cam plate ,,, other than $$$$$ they work fine.. Now the HD kit with the Better oil pump and cam-plate is quite a good deal FOR $429. Just for the two items (pump and plate) and the conversion to hydraulics OR block them off for the G drives..
signed....BUBBIE
I have run the stock plate and Feuling pump with no problems. I have also run the Feuling pump and plate with no problems. Both in 95 with gears.
Quote from: MaxHeadflow on March 17, 2011, 06:23:00 PM
So giving up in the intellectual stuff eh?
I guess standing in line to get the after market bolt on stuff is the way to go..
Max
Nope. Learned long ago that opinions are like..............well you know. And I don't like to waste my time when I could be enjoying life. But here's something I try to to advocate; "Wise men never argue with fools, because people from a distance can't tell who's who"?
To answer your earlier question, here's a good example of a restriction that's used to control temperature. A thermostat in a liquid cooled engine is used to restrict coolant flow in order to keep it in the engine long enough to absorb heat, and to leave it in the radiator long enough to release the heat into the atmosphere. Thermostats are also used in oil cooled automatic transmissions for the very same reason. To restrict oil flow and improve cooling efficiency. Most people think of liquid thermostats are being open or closed. Most are temperature sensitive variable orifices. Every novice auto technician has seen an engine with a stuck-open thermostat suffer from overheating in hot weather and slow warm-up on a cold day. Restrictions are also used to control liquid flow, affect physical properties and induce temperature drop as is the case with most all refrigeration systems that use an expansion valve or orifice tube.
Your first example is a good one.. It implies too much flow could cause inadequate cooling.. On the second, the orifice is needed to help cause a pressure drop and vaporize a liquid with a low boiling point.. Probably not a good example. Since we are not trying to boil oil here,,,
Quote
Wise men never argue with fools, because people from a distance can't tell who's who
Never said I was wise, I argue with mayor all the time.. :wink:
Max
Quote from: BUBBIE on March 18, 2011, 03:15:11 PM
Hey T. I like the KIT that HD sell for 429$$.. depending on your engine model and year?
I used the Fueling pump on my 2ooo FXDS hot rod.. Liked it very much also used the Delkron cam plate ,,, other than $$$$$ they work fine.. Now the HD kit with the Better oil pump and cam-plate is quite a good deal FOR $429. Just for the two items (pump and plate) and the conversion to hydraulics OR block them off for the G drives..
signed....BUBBIE
Sounds good, I have an 07 FLHTCI... I've got a problem with the oil pressure being too high, what I think I did wrong is when I put the motor back together, I used the alignment pins to center the oil pump behind the cam plate when what I should have done was not use them and hand turn the motor over and let the pump center itself on the pinion shaft... I don't need more pressure so that why I asked the question about the Fueling camplate... But it sounds like the Fueling oil pump has better scavenger gears then the stock HD pump, am I wrong? Thanks.
Quote from: Tbones on March 20, 2011, 02:19:57 PM
Quote from: BUBBIE on March 18, 2011, 03:15:11 PM
Hey T. I like the KIT that HD sell for 429$$.. depending on your engine model and year?
I used the Fueling pump on my 2ooo FXDS hot rod.. Liked it very much also used the Delkron cam plate ,,, other than $$$$$ they work fine.. Now the HD kit with the Better oil pump and cam-plate is quite a good deal FOR $429. Just for the two items (pump and plate) and the conversion to hydraulics OR block them off for the G drives..
signed....BUBBIE
Sounds good, I have an 07 FLHTCI... I've got a problem with the oil pressure being too high, what I think I did wrong is when I put the motor back together, I used the alignment pins to center the oil pump behind the cam plate when what I should have done was not use them and hand turn the motor over and let the pump center itself on the pinion shaft... I don't need more pressure so that why I asked the question about the Fueling camplate... But it sounds like the Fueling oil pump has better scavenger gears then the stock HD pump, am I wrong? Thanks.
************
The geroters are Larger in the Feuling and SE HD pump so return (sumping) is better....
I don't think centering the pump better by turning it over ,,,,as to the studs used to center it,,,,, has much to do with Your Over pressure.... I have done it both ways and have had good alignment.... COULD your problem be in the BYPASS area and the over pressure Be there ??? Not flowing out the pump and PUSHING More oil needed into the engine????
I think I would Like a pump to PUMP as Much OIL.. Even though you say TOO Much Pressure... I didn't read where you Have Too Much oil pressure.. But I suspect the By pass First and the GOOD alignment you have Now is a Must In My Book..
Or could you have some type of Restriction in the cam plate that doesn't allow oil to return to the oil pan?
What IS your Oil pressure? HOT
signed....BUBBIE
Quote from: BUBBIE on March 20, 2011, 04:42:09 PM
Quote from: Tbones on March 20, 2011, 02:19:57 PM
Quote from: BUBBIE on March 18, 2011, 03:15:11 PM
Hey T. I like the KIT that HD sell for 429$$.. depending on your engine model and year?
I used the Fueling pump on my 2ooo FXDS hot rod.. Liked it very much also used the Delkron cam plate ,,, other than $$$$$ they work fine.. Now the HD kit with the Better oil pump and cam-plate is quite a good deal FOR $429. Just for the two items (pump and plate) and the conversion to hydraulics OR block them off for the G drives..
signed....BUBBIE
The geroters are Larger in the Feuling and SE HD pump so return (sumping) is better....
I don't think centering the pump better by turning it over ,,,,as to the studs used to center it,,,,, has much to do with Your Over pressure.... I have done it both ways and have had good alignment.... COULD your problem be in the BYPASS area and the over pressure Be there ??? Not flowing out the pump and PUSHING More oil needed into the engine????
I think I would Like a pump to PUMP as Much OIL.. Even though you say TOO Much Pressure... I didn't read where you Have Too Much oil pressure.. But I suspect the By pass First and the GOOD alignment you have Now is a Must In My Book..
Or could you have some type of Restriction in the cam plate that doesn't allow oil to return to the oil pan?
What IS your Oil pressure? HOT
signed....BUBBIE
Oil temp was running right at 210 and my pressure went to 55 psi when I got on it... I'm running a Pro-charger blower and it only happened the one time so I'm not real sure what caused it... I running pretty steady at 38 to 40 psi at normal operating temps for both the motor and oil... I'm running the Dakota digitals and it alarms (flashes) when the oil pressure hits 50 psi... I was running the motor thru the rpm's to start setting the offsets on my Twin Tec... It hasn't done it since but I was looking at a Fueling plate and pump anyways... Thanks for the input...
QuoteI've got a problem with the oil pressure being too high, what I think I did wrong is when I put the motor back together, I used the alignment pins to center the oil pump behind the cam plate when what I should have done was not use them and hand turn the motor over and let the pump center itself on the pinion shaft... I don't need more pressure so that why I asked the question about the Fueling camplate... But it sounds like the Fueling oil pump has better scavenger gears then the stock HD pump, am I wrong?
Oil pump alignment don't effect oil pressure unless you figure out some way to crack a gyrotor.. to high pressure can only occur when the relief valve becomes stuck possibly from debris in the valve, poor machining or fit on the relief valve or damage to the valve bore or valve.. You could possibly bend the cam plate and jam the valve.. If you only had a momentary jump in pressure then it was probably some stuff that got stuck in the valve and later freed up.. If an 'lectric gauge, i wouldn't rule out a bad connection or sensor..
Max
Quote from: MaxHeadflow on March 20, 2011, 09:28:37 PM
QuoteI've got a problem with the oil pressure being too high, what I think I did wrong is when I put the motor back together, I used the alignment pins to center the oil pump behind the cam plate when what I should have done was not use them and hand turn the motor over and let the pump center itself on the pinion shaft... I don't need more pressure so that why I asked the question about the Fueling camplate... But it sounds like the Fueling oil pump has better scavenger gears then the stock HD pump, am I wrong?
Oil pump alignment don't effect oil pressure unless you figure out some way to crack a gyrotor.. to high pressure can only occur when the relief valve becomes stuck possibly from debris in the valve, poor machining or fit on the relief valve or damage to the valve bore or valve.. You could possibly bend the cam plate and jam the valve.. If you only had a momentary jump in pressure then it was probably some stuff that got stuck in the valve and later freed up.. If an 'lectric gauge, i wouldn't rule out a bad connection or sensor..
Max
That's a real possibility, I could have had some left over pieces from when my wheels shifted on the crank and took out the oil baffle plate in my leftside case... The gauges are electric which could have been the problem too... If it happens again then I'll pull the cam plate and see if what you've suggested is what's happening... Thanks to all for the input, it is appreciated...