Friend of mine just had his motor rebuilt the lower end and the top
S&S recommends : not going over 2500 rpm
and dump the oil after 50 miles
Then not over 3000-3500 the next 500 then dump the oil
Then after 1000 miles are up its ok to run synthetic and ride
normally.
The service guy at the dealer said to "just take it easy"
and change the oil after 1000 miles .
Also heard that S&S are the ones doing the Engine Remanufacture Program
FOR the MoCo so it seems to me that the S&S break in
procedure is the way to go...
What would YOU do?
Your purpose: maximum ring seal, highest CCP.
Their purpose:zero warranty returns.
Not the same.
I would use regular oil, do a few heat cycles at idle. Take it for a normal ride on the Interstate using every exit and after a 1/2 hour start to floor it on takeoff. Get the cylinder ring pressure built up. After 50 miles start riding hard.
If you baby it for 1000 miles you will have a slug.
cling
I have Otto break it in with dino oil. 3 heat cycles and then on the dyne to do a controlled break in and tune. Then a new filter and Red Line synthetic.
Quote from: Hendogg on November 23, 2013, 12:34:54 PM
What would YOU do?
My '05 I babied and it burned a little oil. My '10 after about 20 miles I ran it up to over 100 MPH a couple times. The '10 uses very little oil and is still running strong with 60,000 miles.
IMO, once you get the first few miles on the bike, on a couple heat and cool cycles the just run it like you want, just don't abuse it.
Don't lug it! :oops:
Don't make it scream! :slap:
Make it work! :hug:
A couple of quick oil changes will remove any junk & sure don't hurt! :chop:
I like the S&S method.The last one I did I ran the oil for 300mi. before changing and then changed it again at 1000mi.
Synthetic or non synthetic,doesn't matter.
the S&S break in procedure I have is a little different than the one you listed. Here is what mine says to do:
make sure you have oil pressure 1st....then
1) initial start up: Run engine approximately 1 minute at 1250-1750 rpm. DO NOT crack the throttle. Then shut off and check for any leaks.
Let the engine cool all the way down so you can touch it.
2) Start the engine again...and let it build some heat (no higher than 150*). Don't let the engine run NO LONGER than 3-4 minutes on this cycle. Then shut the engine down and check for leaks again. Make sure you vary rpm's...and NO CRACKING the throttle again.
3) repeat step #2, 3 or 4 more times. Each time you can liberally vary rpm range up to 2500 rpm's. Make sure the engine cools to room temp after each cycle before re-starting it.
4) Now your ready to ride the bike. The 1st 50 miles are the most critical for the new rings and piston break in. Keep the heat down by NOT EXCEEDING 2500 rpm's. Avoid lugging the motor, or riding in extreme hot weather or in heavy traffic. Vary the engine speed...once moving open the throttle up quickly for ring seal and then let off. Repeat this many times for the rings to expand up against the cylinders. After 50 miles...change the oil and filter.
5) The next 500 miles should be spent running the engine no higher than 3500 rpm's...or above 60 mph. Avoid continuous speeds and do not lug the engine. Change the oil and filter at 500 miles.
6) For the balance of the 1st 1000 miles you can run the engine normally...no drag racing. After 1000 miles...check your tuning (I suggest having it professionally dyno tuned) and change the oil and filter....then let 'er chew!
Ride it like you Stole it,Just kidding ya,NoCents has the right deal going. :wink:
Quote from: panic on November 23, 2013, 01:10:52 PM
Your purpose: maximum ring seal, highest CCP.
Their purpose:zero warranty returns.
Not the same.
interested in your method
Perhaps this may shed some light on the subject........
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm (http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm)
Quote from: ThumperDeuce on November 23, 2013, 01:19:38 PM
I have Otto break it in with dino oil. 3 heat cycles and then on the dyne to do a controlled break in and tune. Then a new filter and Red Line synthetic.
Best way I know of.
I have re-ringed my S&S shovel a couple times. I've broke it in easy and I have also given it a couple heat cycles easy then whacked it in 3rd gear to red line and let it engine break back down, did that 3-4 times,.... then just ride. Nothing bad happened either way. Regardless if it helps or not I break in new rings on dino oil.
This time of the year is prob the best to break in a motor on the street because the chance of it overheating is much less for sure.:). I guess I do two heat cycles. First I start it up to check for leaks and noises. Then go get a cup of coffee, drink it down then start the bike up to ride into the dyno room. Then get all my things in order to get ready to tune( sniffer,tuner,jacket,ect.). Then I start the bike up and put it into fourth gear with 10% load and cycle her up and down a bit until 220 is reached and then start going wider throttle openings(75ish) up to 3500 multiple times then 4000 then 5000. I never get below 2k rpm hardly and never above 250°. All the while I am looking at my afr to see what it is to make sure I'm not too lean/rich. I will then go into 5th gear and go WOT to view afr and do this a few times. It is cool to see live tq go up little by little and when there is no more tq gain I would say my initial break in is done. Works for me but your results may vary
I like the S&S method. They claim synthetic is fine even for the initial heat cycles but I prefer conventional 20W-50. I think their crate motors were shipping with Mobil 1 but they are probably shipping with their new line of oil now. Before doing any heat cycles or anything I like to pull the spark plugs out and turn the engine over with the starter for a few seconds to help get the oil pressure up. After that I put the plugs in and start the heat cycles. I like at least 3 heat cycles each lasting a little longer than the previous and cooling the engine completely between heat cycles. Fans are helpful with that and then moving on with the S&S method but I prefer to do the first 50 miles and all of the heat cycles on the dyno so all of the data is read in real time and recorded. I like to use the sniffer too checking to make sure the fuel is metered correctly. I prefer a touch rich for break in for extra cooling and lubrication effect. If theres anything odd going on or if the fuel, warmup tables iac tables etc., I start making adjustments to the map and get them closer. That's just the way I prefer to do it, others will have their way.
This is what I did with my 126".
Filled with conventional 20w50 penzoil.
Remove spark plugs, turn it over 8-10 seconds about 5x to get some oil moving around.
Started it up, let it build some heat and check for leaks.
Cool down, start again and check for leaks.
Cool down, start warm up and ride. Give it some good throttle in 2nd and 3rd, letting it engine brake to slow down. Rode around like this for 30 mins or so.
Changed oil, new filter.
Put 500km on it with conv 20w50 riding normal.
After 500km, put syn amsoil and new filter.
Quote from: INDEPENDENT 1 on November 23, 2013, 10:08:18 PM
I like the S&S method. They claim synthetic is fine even for the initial heat cycles but I prefer conventional 20W-50. I think their crate motors were shipping with Mobil 1 but they are probably shipping with their new line of oil now. Before doing any heat cycles or anything I like to pull the spark plugs out and turn the engine over with the starter for a few seconds to help get the oil pressure up. After that I put the plugs in and start the heat cycles. I like at least 3 heat cycles each lasting a little longer than the previous and cooling the engine completely between heat cycles. Fans are helpful with that and then moving on with the S&S method but I prefer to do the first 50 miles and all of the heat cycles on the dyno so all of the data is read in real time and recorded. I like to use the sniffer too checking to make sure the fuel is metered correctly. I prefer a touch rich for break in for extra cooling and lubrication effect. If theres anything odd going on or if the fuel, warmup tables iac tables etc., I start making adjustments to the map and get them closer. That's just the way I prefer to do it, others will have their way.
S&S's new oil is manufactured for them by Spectro.
Quote from: panic on November 23, 2013, 01:10:52 PM
Your purpose: maximum ring seal, highest CCP.
Their purpose:zero warranty returns.
Not the same.
Bingo!
What parts actually need breaking in? Sounds like all OEM's just want you to take it easy in case a fastener/retainer lets loose, after that they want the internals flushed just in case there are contaminants.
Quote from: PanHeadRed on November 27, 2013, 12:09:03 PM
What parts actually need breaking in? Sounds like all OEM's just want you to take it easy in case a fastener/retainer lets loose, after that they want the internals flushed just in case there are contaminants.
The rings against the fresh hone pattern on the cylinders, that's about it.
And for what its worth, modern rings seat within the first 10 minutes or so of operation and by the time
you have 50 miles on it, they're fully seated. Thats why you should open it up full throttle for a moment
at a time. More cylinder pressure = better ring seat.
I do breakins on the dyno where possible. Small bursts of full throttle here and there as well. Break it in like
you're going to ride it (within reason) don't hold it WFO for more than a few seconds. 50 miles or so, dump
the oil & filter and put fresh whatever your fav. brand is.
Ok, let the bashing begin! :chop:
Quote from: Merc63 on November 27, 2013, 11:33:34 AM
This is what I did with my 126".
Filled with conventional 20w50 penzoil.
Remove spark plugs, turn it over 8-10 seconds about 5x to get some oil moving around.
Started it up, let it build some heat and check for leaks.
Cool down, start again and check for leaks.
Cool down, start warm up and ride. Give it some good throttle in 2nd and 3rd, letting it engine brake to slow down. Rode around like this for 30 mins or so.
Changed oil, new filter.
Put 500km on it with conv 20w50 riding normal.
After 500km, put syn amsoil and new filter.
Pretty much the way I did it with the last three builds. It worked great for me.
Rick
Quote from: stogieluvr60 on November 23, 2013, 04:46:30 PM
Perhaps this may shed some light on the subject........
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm (http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm)
I followed this process myself last spring, on my 117. Got about 5K on it now. Makes sense from a technical perspective. DBaisley highly recommended it to me and I trust the man. I will check my leak down this winter, if Durwood will send me his kit... :teeth:
The story goes like this: Dealership mech completed the 103 etc etc etc. 'Just ride it" No brake in ,No rpm limit (except rev limiter). Don't burn oil last time i checked. Shakes up paint on seat.That just started. smooth at 3k but is a little anemic feeling! noise from primary (not the clutch,noise from the rollers Up till lately,now quiet? Wearable parts ALL THEM per dealership. solution "ready for that NEW HD?" Start over or $$$$$$$$$ I AM the BROKEin person!!!!!
Templer(CA) I am still paying for the full Monty!!
Has anyone ever seated the rings like ya would a air compressor? Ya do not want oil in you air!! I use to rebuild them and the break in was on a stand(compressor only) with heads off in some cases but most with valves installed and unit assembled. You installa fixed orphus to the outlet and check toe cfm put out. ther is more detail but you get the drift. .Turned the unit at slow speed till ring seated and cfm matched mfgr specs.Would a V twin be different? they just have a spark plug and need fuel? Barrel Cross hatch, ring end gap, type of ring used to hone #? cant be much difert then a Ford or Chevy Can they?
Templer(CA)
Quote from: Templer on November 27, 2013, 01:19:30 PM....... You installa fixed orphus to the outlet and check toe (total?) cfm put out. ther is more detail but you get the drift.
Sounds to me like the fixed oriface allows a high cylinder pressure, similar to WOT at a low (not lugging) RPM to seat rings with pressure
I would think that the cylinder presssure at time of ignition IS way higher then pressure as i discribled . But true as to low speed pressure seal/seating. That would all change if incorrect type of hone used ,speed of hone when cutting cross hatch etc. I NEVER had a unit come back with a oil problem but it wasn't a 5 min compressor spin to seat and verify the CFM at the manufacturers pressure. Quincy and Champion. Rottory screw was a different thing as well as hospital oil free units. I thought that as it comes from factory (OEM HD) that all motor ring end gaps,cylinder height, etc would be spot on? Sloppy "as you can go out and "break it in for warranty " NEW FOR SHOW ROOM FLOOR!! I never went over the manuals speed (mph) per gear shift my self?!?!?! When you get $$$$$$$$$$ into your HD you get a little bit picky about that "break in " Who sets the standard for all the specs on rings.piston to wall,ETC ETC ETC THE factory DO and WE believe them? SOME DO!! HERE i think a lot check themselves or rely on proven builders who already know how the deck height for example is ALLWAY even when stage 2 OEM supplied or custom build is done.
I'll share a story about what I.....I mean what I guy I know did with an SE 95" build. When the jugs and pistons were installed, it was during an extreme heat wave, (100*-110* every day) and I....I mean this guy I know, decided that he couldn't wait for cooler weather to try and break it in. The bike was also running gear drive cams at the time, and unbenknownst to me...I mean him, the pinion gear was too tight, causing even more heat. After about 1,500 miles, the engine began to rattle at low rpm's while accelerating, as well as decel, like a collapsed lifter. The heads & jugs were pulled at about 2500 miles, and it was discovered that the rings never seated, and just a guess, the pistons partially collapsed. I think the motor got overheated. The method used was the typical "take it easy & vary the rpms" for about 300 miles. The rear piston had oil on top of it, and the umbrellas of the intake valves had burnt oil and carbon on them. One could also see where there was oil on the sides of the pistons between the rings. The lesson learned was not to be in too big of a hurry to get back on the road again. I can guarantee there will be alot more patience involved the next time.
Lil' Chief
Ride it like you stole it is not far off. The rings need frequent good acceleration, i.e., the explosive pressure to seat well. They don't, just under their own effective spring pressure. So don't ride for 3 hours straight at a steady load and speed. Ride a lot where you have to vary your speed and do a lot of good (heavy as you can) accelerations. Stay within the law and also stay within the RPM limits listed in the manual during the break in mileages. Worked well for me on all of my three Harleys (Sportster, Softail & Touring models)
Started it up first time on a cool night to warm it shut it down, checked for leaks etc. Second start up, warm up, out on the road, into third gear, run her up to 60 mph and let engine comp brake it down to 30 mph. Did that about a dozen times. Back to the garage, check it out, dump the oil. Then just rode it. 185 ccp front and rear, same when I last checked many many miles later.
2cents LOL
The best 6 or 7 - 4 stroke motors I have ever owned i drove the living piss out of for the first 500 miles. only 2 throttle positions. Wide open and closed from almost redline... Yes this is dangerous... BUT all of these motors built almost NO oil, ALL lasted twice a normal lifetime, ALL had exceptional compression/power/fuel economy......
BTW this also happens to be how 2 military contractors that make THOUSANDS of motors a year break their motors in... heat cycles 2-4 times then max WFO max decelleration for about 250 equitable miles and fluid change.
On a 125cc 2 stroke this break in method is worth 1-1.2 hp and 2-3ft lbs torque back in 1997... Saw it on dyno repeatedly. We assembled 100+ works motors that year and the difference between the 2 sides of the house on the same dyno were EARILY consistent.
Of course I was also the first guy in the Northwest to throw a rod through the block of a 600hp ISX cummins with about 2000 miles on it...... Sometimes things ARE NOT assembled correctly and catostrophic failure is the result!
My new FLTRU seems to like the break in... Bike is heavier than fltrx I ride with, I am heavier too... I accelerate faster in 4/5/6 th gear and am getting better fuel milage at 1000 miles than he gets at 5000miles on odo... Same road same day riding together I am averaging 2mpg better on 3 trips now.... Guess who babied their motor?
:chop:
Just finished my 50 mile break in via S&S method. Going to take a 500 mile run up the PCH tomorrow. Wont lug it or red line it but it will be a fun run!
Quote from: Mountainman streetbob on November 29, 2013, 05:38:49 AM
2cents LOL
The best 6 or 7 - 4 stroke motors I have ever owned i drove the living piss out of for the first 500 miles. only 2 throttle positions. Wide open and closed from almost redline... Yes this is dangerous... BUT all of these motors built almost NO oil, ALL lasted twice a normal lifetime, ALL had exceptional compression/power/fuel economy......
BTW this also happens to be how 2 military contractors that make THOUSANDS of motors a year break their motors in... heat cycles 2-4 times then max WFO max decelleration for about 250 equitable miles and fluid change.
On a 125cc 2 stroke this break in method is worth 1-1.2 hp and 2-3ft lbs torque back in 1997... Saw it on dyno repeatedly. We assembled 100+ works motors that year and the difference between the 2 sides of the house on the same dyno were EARILY consistent.
Of course I was also the first guy in the Northwest to throw a rod through the block of a 600hp ISX cummins with about 2000 miles on it...... Sometimes things ARE NOT assembled correctly and catostrophic failure is the result!
My new FLTRU seems to like the break in... Bike is heavier than fltrx I ride with, I am heavier too... I accelerate faster in 4/5/6 th gear and am getting better fuel milage at 1000 miles than he gets at 5000miles on odo... Same road same day riding together I am averaging 2mpg better on 3 trips now.... Guess who babied their motor?
:chop:
Bob, great anecdotal evidence there!
I've been doing that way for over 30 years and have experienced similar results.
If it's gonna blow, its gonna do it right then and there and not later on when the
warranty may have expired. Broke all my supercharged bigblocks in like this as well
(Usually on the dyno but sometimes in the boat) and I always had an edge on my
competition.
Did the same thing with dirtbikes, two-stroke street bikes, you name it. IT WORKS!
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k-TcfbvgUoI# (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k-TcfbvgUoI#)
Break-in proceedure.
107 cp pistons, wood 555, se tappered pushrods, stock rockers, se cam plate, revperf welded crank
I would not take any new piece of equipment, and pound the livin' ba-jabbers of of it.
Lawnmower, weedbeater...............or, oh yeah, my HD that I just spent a pile-o-franklins on.
Gentle, and let it settle in, change out the oil a couple times along the lines of the engine builders recommended intervals.
Get it tuned, and you'll be in good shape to have long-lasting power and fun.
Scott
The 1st ride is the most critical for proper ring seal. That video wasn't my idea of a proper break in procedure. I go slower in 1st gear and accelerate about 1/4 to 1/2 throttle and let off...to have the rings expand against the cylinder walls. I'll do this a dozen times or so. Then I'll do the same thing a half dozen times or so in 2nd gear...making sure the engine has load on it during decal.
Then I'll ride it normally (making sure not to lug it) for 20-25 miles...letting off the throttle often under load and rolling back on it for expanding the rings good. I'll park it and let it cool to touch...then jump back on and do the same thing all over again until I get 50 miles on the new engine.
Then I'll change the oil and filter.
It's seemed to work for me over the years. I have never had a ring seal issue.
We build these every day and have for almost 30 years now.
Just sharing what we've seen work. :up:
Scott
So it doesn't make a difference if you use performance items with different alloys and different machining techniques. You just break it in nice and easy like it's all cast and stock. Lol he'll even when my bike had 2 miles on it I gave it full throttle and took it to the limiter, with the wife on the back.
When I did my engine I inspected the pistons and the top ring looked like it sealed and no burn marks or excessive wear or scaring.
Now when I did my dads engine he followed the breaking procedure. His pistons looked like the top ring never sealed and there was burn marks passed the top ring. Also he had some minor scoring in the cylinder and piston skirts.
What ever works for whoever builds it I guess.
Cheers
Start it up & let idle for a minute or two and check for leaks,shut off.Start up & ride for a mile or so around neighborhood.I usually just ride a few miles at a time for the first 50,dump oil.The first 50 is critical: dont let it overheat! After that ride fairly normal with frequent stops after 40-50 miles to let engine cool.No high RPM's,dont lug it,dont overheat it.Change oil at 500 and again at 1000.Use dino oil.
In all the builds on my bikes in the last 40 years the one broken in on a dyno (after a couple heat/cool cycles) has been the best in regards to oil usage. Correct AFR very important IME.
Quote from: N-gin on December 27, 2013, 09:35:39 PM
So it doesn't make a difference if you use performance items with different alloys and different machining techniques. You just break it in nice and easy like it's all cast and stock. Lol he'll even when my bike had 2 miles on it I gave it full throttle and took it to the limiter, with the wife on the back.
When I did my engine I inspected the pistons and the top ring looked like it sealed and no burn marks or excessive wear or scaring.
Now when I did my dads engine he followed the breaking procedure. His pistons looked like the top ring never sealed and there was burn marks passed the top ring. Also he had some minor scoring in the cylinder and piston skirts.
What ever works for whoever builds it I guess.
Cheers
However you want to do it........... :up:
Dyno break in and tune is by far superior. I do new motors all the time including my own and they just do not use oil. Getting fuel and timing to a motor as soon as possible is the way to go. I have a good break in procedure on the dyno that works great.
Quote from: Hillsidecyclecom on December 27, 2013, 11:48:17 AM
I would not take any new piece of equipment, and pound the livin' ba-jabbers of of it.
Lawnmower, weedbeater...............or, oh yeah, my HD that I just spent a pile-o-franklins on.
Gentle, and let it settle in, change out the oil a couple times along the lines of the engine builders recommended intervals.
Get it tuned, and you'll be in good shape to have long-lasting power and fun.
Scott
Big difference between "pound the livin' ba-jabbers" and a
very brief full throttle burst.
Couldn't agree more. :up:
The method I used was, after biuld, 3 heat cycles, (warm up at 1200-1500 rpms until motor was hot to touch) then let cool completely. Ran easy nothing over 2500 rpms for the first 50 miles. Changed oil. next 500 miles I drove it normal as in a city enviroment, rev up ~ 3500-4000 normal to medium acceleration then let it decelerate hard like down shifting would do.
it was like a back and forth feeling.. as you accelerate you lean back and as you desclerate you lean foward.
this puts the rings under pressure both on acceleration and decelration.
Change oil at 500 miles. I went to mobile 1 20-50 at this point.
After 500 miles I just drove it as I would and do normally..........then changed oil and filter one more time at 1000.
after that normal service intravels..........
What I did after much research and asking like you are......
I dont believe it matters who's motor it is or who biult it unless specified by a unique biulder.........
jmho
The next 500 miles should be spent running the engine no higher than 3500 rpm's...or above 60 mph. Avoid continuous speeds and do not lug the engine. Change the oil and filter at 500 miles.
I don't think I could go 500 mile keeping it under 60 MPH... :embarrassed:
I try to keep it under 4000 rpm for the first 500 miles.
www.mototuneusa.com break-in method is best. I have used it on new bikes. Rebuilt engines and it has worked every time.
Quote from: trx1986 on December 30, 2013, 03:43:57 PM
www.mototuneusa.com (http://www.mototuneusa.com) break-in method is best. I have used it on new bikes. Rebuilt engines and it has worked every time.
Bread is evil.
Quote from: Hillsidecyclecom on December 30, 2013, 09:04:46 AM
Couldn't agree more. :up:
I recently installed a new S&S 124 in my 03 Dyna. This engine was originally ordered for a friend who backed out of the sale so I took it. Since the engine has a 1 year S&S warranty I stuck fairly close to the S&S break in reccomendation. Initial oil was Mobil 1 20-50 per S&S. 3 heat cycles on the dyno & checked A/F to verify it was safe and then 50 street miles at varying throttle settings not exceeding 2500 RPM's. Changed oil again at 50 miles to Mobil 1 20-50. From 50 to 500 miles I used the throttle more liberally. Generally rode on 2 lane backroads where engine loading constantly varied. Ran the motor at full throttle up to 3500 RPM in 2nd gear and then backed out and let motor brake the bike down to 2000 RPM's repeatedly between 50 & 150 miles. At 150 miles I started using the same procedure up to 4500 RPM's and backing off to 2000 RPM's. At 500 miles I changed the oil again using Mobil 1 20-50 and then started riding it like I normally would. Only have 600 miles on the motor and have not dyno tuned it yet. Bike is down until the spring when warmer weather arrives in KY.
I have done it the S&S way and also broke them in with roll ons after a couple of heat cycles. I like the later better.
Quote from: ThumperDeuce on November 23, 2013, 01:19:38 PM
I have Otto break it in with dino oil. 3 heat cycles and then on the dyne to do a controlled break in and tune. Then a new filter and Red Line synthetic.
How do they break them in on the dyno? Vary rpm and load for a certain amount of time or miles?
3rd gear, 30, 60, 30 several times under heavy acceleration deceleration. Dump the oil at 500 miles and ride as normal...But to each his own. :smile: