Are there a lot of fellows out there that break in new motors on the dyno? Or do most of the tuners prefer a traditional 500 mi. Break in period before they dyno the bike..... Is there any benefits in doing one or the other...... Any downside to doing one or the other?
Break in on the dyno. You have control over temp, load, and AF. VS. Riding it for 500 miles on what map?
IMO, it's a double edged sword .... sort of.
Break in on a dyno can be very controlled and the map adjusted to prevent excessively lean conditions.
On the other hand, a fresh build (that is out of your control) may be a disaster waiting to happen. In our case we prefer that you at least have a few miles on it to make sure it isn't a time bomb waiting to explode. And the last thing we want is a bike that has issues. No amount of dyno break in will make up for a valve hitting a piston, for example. Check with your tuner to see if they can supply a map for initial startup and running ... usually an extra rich map, IMO richer is better than leaner.
Overall I am all for break in on the dyno.
Quote from: springer- on January 01, 2014, 05:25:54 PM
IMO, it's a double edged sword .... sort of.
Break in on a dyno can be very controlled and the map adjusted to prevent excessively lean conditions.
On the other hand, a fresh build (that is out of your control) may be a disaster waiting to happen. In our case we prefer that you at least have a few miles on it to make sure it isn't a time bomb waiting to explode. And the last thing we want is a bike that has issues. No amount of dyno break in will make up for a valve hitting a piston, for example. Check with your tuner to see if they can supply a map for initial startup and running ... usually an extra rich map, IMO richer is better than leaner.
Overall I am all for break in on the dyno.
:agree:
but you know how many "break in maps" I have handed out .....that were no shows :down: ...double edge sword for sure :up:
Plus 1 here! You can adjust and control.
quote author=springer- link=topic=69287.msg749099#msg749099 date=1388625954]
IMO, it's a double edged sword .... sort of.
Break in on a dyno can be very controlled and the map adjusted to prevent excessively lean conditions.
On the other hand, a fresh build (that is out of your control) may be a disaster waiting to happen. In our case we prefer that you at least have a few miles on it to make sure it isn't a time bomb waiting to explode. And the last thing we want is a bike that has issues. No amount of dyno break in will make up for a valve hitting a piston, for example. Check with your tuner to see if they can supply a map for initial startup and running ... usually an extra rich map, IMO richer is better than leaner.
Overall I am all for break in on the dyno.
[/quote]
We put the first 25 "controlled" miles on our in-house installs, whether it be on the road or on our Dynojet 150, prior to going to a tuner.
VERY RARE, if we see hear or any issues using this method.
Scott
I feel the reason this question comes up is that the first thing the average Joe thinks of when he hears "Dyno" is a bike running WOT. Not the case at all. You can get running time on the bike while making sure the afr is proper and the motor doesn't detonate or get to hot. The real question should be "Should I get my bike broke in properly on a dyno or should I run it out of tune for 500 miles first?"
The guy that does my motors puts them on the dyno, hooks AFR and data logging before he fires the motor the first time. He logs heat cycles and break-in right on the dyno.
I have two performance motors, 95ci and 110ci both less than 3% leakdown at 100lbs and neither use any oil between 2500 mile changes. Not saying it is the only way, many have their own way that works for them, but it is the only way for me from now on.
For those that do the break-in on a dyno, how many miles are approx. run on the dyno?
I have a DynaPro dyno (UK) which has a miles and time read-out. I usually get a little over 1 hour and a few miles over 60 miles in running time/mileage for a tune.
(Interesting that the average is 60 mph)
A brand new build might need a little more dinkin' so it could take 1.5hrs and up to 100 miles.
When I worked for Kuryakyn I was in the same building as Bob Wright and Mike Roland was the division manager. By the time I started with 'k' Roland was already a believer in dyno break-ins. Bob was a little more skeptical. After all, they went from his bench to the dyno!
Bob would always remind me to do as many heat cycles as possible, and I'm sure he cringed the first 6500 RPM WOT pass, but he became a believer too.
As hrdtail78 said 'or should I run it out of tune for 500 miles first?'
I don't run them rich at any time (except WOT) because rich will wash the oil off the cylinders and that doesn't do your rings any good at all.
After the first set of runs, the adjustments put your AFRs into the correct zone and you have a bike that's only been run properly after the first few minutes.
I've had push-rods collapse but you won't get 500 miles if that happens and you'll have to fix it out on the road.
Doug
Quote from: 14Frisco on January 02, 2014, 09:05:39 AM
For those that do the break-in on a dyno, how many miles are approx. run on the dyno?
Good question. I kinda thought it would be kinda time consuming running 500 miles on a dyno. Plus dyno time costs money. Much rather be riding it instead, even below 3000 and 3500 RPM. I don't think I'd break-in on a dyno. I want to ride it.
Plus the dyno operator is probably used to wrapping that throttle around to WOT and you don't want that until after 500 miles. Just saying.
Quote from: RideFree on January 11, 2014, 08:40:10 PM
Quote from: 14Frisco on January 02, 2014, 09:05:39 AM
For those that do the break-in on a dyno, how many miles are approx. run on the dyno?
Good question. I kinda thought it would be kinda time consuming running 500 miles on a dyno. Plus dyno time costs money. Much rather be riding it instead, even below 3000 and 3500 RPM. I don't think I'd break-in on a dyno. I want to ride it.
Plus the dyno operator is probably used to wrapping that throttle around to WOT and you don't want that until after 500 miles. Just saying.
I hope your not serious, you don't need 500 dyno miles to get your bike tuned and ready to run and if your dyno tuner is just "wrapping" that throttle then you better find a new tuner.
Quote from: BVHOG on January 12, 2014, 07:15:19 PM
Quote from: RideFree on January 11, 2014, 08:40:10 PM
Quote from: 14Frisco on January 02, 2014, 09:05:39 AM
For those that do the break-in on a dyno, how many miles are approx. run on the dyno?
Good question. I kinda thought it would be kinda time consuming running 500 miles on a dyno. Plus dyno time costs money. Much rather be riding it instead, even below 3000 and 3500 RPM. I don't think I'd break-in on a dyno. I want to ride it.
Plus the dyno operator is probably used to wrapping that throttle around to WOT and you don't want that until after 500 miles. Just saying.
I hope your not serious, you don't need 500 dyno miles to get your bike tuned and ready to run and if your dyno tuner is just "wrapping" that throttle then you better find a new tuner.
The topic is breaking in not just tuning it. Tuning obviously takes much less time and miles than breaking it in.
RideFree must have skimmed over my post. It generally, takes 1-1.5 hours of running time and 60-100 miles during the tuning.
As far as break-in goes, I tell the customer, there's nothing they're going to do that I haven't already done, meaning that I've taken it to the limiter at WOT several times.
What I don't do is lug it under load at 2200 RPM for an hour with the engine temp at 300 C. And, I don't think there is any reason to do that even after a 'break-in'.
Rings are seated in minutes with the top rings needing some cylinder pressure (gas pressure pushes the top ring outward.)
Most of the lore about long break-ins is about cast iron cylinders with forged pistons. They require a thorough heat soak to stabilize the piston-to-cylinder fit and the pistons may take some miles and load cycles to establish a heat path through the skirt to the cylinder walls. That combination is (I am told) subject to cold seizure if those precautions aren't taken.
Any engine should be heat soaked before pounding on it, but the old stuff is a little more likely to respond poorly.
Maybe everyone here wants to ignore me but I think it's ready to rumble when it's been tuned. Period.
Oh, and by the way, they don't make more power when they get miles on them, they only make less!
Why do you think racers build their engines the night before the race instead of 500 miles before? Besides 'poor planning' of course.
Doug
Quote from: uglyDougly on January 12, 2014, 08:37:38 PM
RideFree must have skimmed over my post. It generally, takes 1-1.5 hours of running time and 60-100 miles during the tuning.
I read your post but did not agree with some of it. No reason to negatively comment because to each his own opinion. I just added mine without indicating my opinion of yours. The original poster can work out what they want to believe and try.
As far as break-in goes, I tell the customer, there's nothing they're going to do that I haven't already done, meaning that I've taken it to the limiter at WOT several times.
I would not let you take mine to WOT before 500 miles.
What I don't do is lug it under load at 2200 RPM for an hour with the engine temp at 300 C. And, I don't think there is any reason to do that even after a 'break-in'.
Rings are seated in minutes with the top rings needing some cylinder pressure (gas pressure pushes the top ring outward.)
I don't agree with minutes to fully seat. It's not just the pressure but the cycles of more pressure and less pressure and time and heat cycles that makes all of the ring meld with the cylinder properly.
Most of the lore about long break-ins is about cast iron cylinders with forged pistons. They require a thorough heat soak to stabilize the piston-to-cylinder fit and the pistons may take some miles and load cycles to establish a heat path through the skirt to the cylinder walls. That combination is (I am told) subject to cold seizure if those precautions aren't taken.
I always recommend following the engine manufacturers break-in specs regardless of what anyone else says.
Any engine should be heat soaked before pounding on it, but the old stuff is a little more likely to respond poorly.
Maybe everyone here wants to ignore me but I think it's ready to rumble when it's been tuned. Period.
Oh, and by the way, they don't make more power when they get miles on them, they only make less!
Why do you think racers build their engines the night before the race instead of 500 miles before? Besides 'poor planning' of course.
Racers do not require their engines to last long like a normal consumer does, so they only care it lasts the race. That is why they do not break-in for longevity but do a much shorter break-in for their purposes, one race.
Doug
With that said, I would not break-in on a dyno mainly because I want to ride it and definitely not chance a WOT tuning run before the manufacturers break-in specs in this case 500 miles.
:emoGroan:
Quote from: RideFree on January 12, 2014, 09:34:02 PM
With that said, I would not break-in on a dyno mainly because I want to ride it and definitely not chance a WOT tuning run before the manufacturers break-in specs in this case 500 miles.
from a purely technical stand point, can you give a logical explanation as to why a light load 500 miles would be critical for a break in? I'm off the opinion that 500 miles on a bad tune is far worse than not observing the traditional 500 miles of babying the engine. IMO the vast majority of break in is occurring in the first 50 or less miles of the engine running, and running an additional 450 miles before loading the engine probably isn't making a hill of beans worth of difference. I actually think controlled loading an unloading the engine is actually better for ring seating, but's that's just my opinion.
Quote from: mayor on January 13, 2014, 04:31:37 AM
Quote from: RideFree on January 12, 2014, 09:34:02 PM
With that said, I would not break-in on a dyno mainly because I want to ride it and definitely not chance a WOT tuning run before the manufacturers break-in specs in this case 500 miles.
from a purely technical stand point, can you give a logical explanation as to why a light load 500 miles would be critical for a break in? I'm off the opinion that 500 miles on a bad tune is far worse than not observing the traditional 500 miles of babying the engine. IMO the vast majority of break in is occurring in the first 50 or less miles of the engine running, and running an additional 450 miles before loading the engine probably isn't making a hill of beans worth of difference. I actually think controlled loading an unloading the engine is actually better for ring seating, but's that's just my opinion.
I never indicated "light load" or "babying the engine." I indicated no WOT not light load. No babying but no WOT either. You can do a pretty darn good acceleration at 40% throttle while keeping it under 3000 RPM. It's really the load, you want the pistons to have to fight to move down the cylinder. So you want some frequent hard accelerations while staying below the break-in RPM limits.
I agree with you that you do not want to baby the engine during break-in. I agree with varying the load and not sitting at one RPM. I have characterized it in previous posts as nearly riding it like you stole it. However, there is no need to dyno or ride it to 6000 RPM or WOT during break-in.
I agree the tune needs to be a good one, not perfect, but good for the break-in period and for the break-in RPM ranges. Then after break-in one can tune the upper RPM ranges. So during break-in just make sure the dyno operator does not forget it's a break-in tune and not a full WOT tune they are performing.
You are correct in that the metal forming and trimming occurs exponentially and not linearly during the break-in period. The first 250 is the most important IMO. I recommend several full heating and cooling cycles during that time as well.
"I have seen a number of really good engines that have had the edge taken off their potential power because the necessity for an adequately extensive break-in was not appreciated."
This quote is from a NASCAR engine break-in article but captures the essence of the goal.
Take the time to break it in following the manufacturers specs. Don't shortcut would be my recommendation and be careful if doing it on a dyno.
Quote from: RideFree on January 13, 2014, 01:09:43 PM
"I have seen a number of really good engines that have had the edge taken off their potential power because the necessity for an adequately extensive break-in was not appreciated."
This quote is from a NASCAR engine break-in article but captures the essence of the goal.
Take the time to break it in following the manufacturers specs. Don't shortcut would be my recommendation and be careful if doing it on a dyno.
You need to find a better dyno shop.
The exact same statement can be made about bikes broke in on the road. They get lugged, rev too high in lower gears, improper ignition timing and AFR, with no way to know how far off they really are.
Either method can be performed properly or improperly so most of this is just personal preference. The thing is once someone gets the opportunity to do a proper dyno brake in they seldom decide to go back to the No dyno method. The ability to monitor and control more variables is undeniable and that control gives very repeatable results.
It's interesting that the quote; "I have seen a number of really good engines that have had the edge taken off their potential power because the necessity for an adequately extensive break-in was not appreciated."
Is from a stockcarracing.com article (may have appeared elsewhere) and he talks about a 20 minute run-in/warm-up followed by an oil change and another hour break-in and recommends that (other than expense) it can be done on the dyno.
Then: 'This next fill should be run for about an hour to maybe an hour and a half with the engine progressively cycled to higher rpm. The engine should be up to about 75 percent of the rpm it will eventually reach. At this point, the sump should be refilled with the oil you intend to use during a race or dyno test. Make some provisional pulls once the engine is on the dyno. Work up to the redline to ascertain all is well, and then go for it.
Read more: http://www.stockcarracing.com/techarticles/scrp_0701_racing_engine_break_in/#ixzz2qKCI8ewB (http://www.stockcarracing.com/techarticles/scrp_0701_racing_engine_break_in/#ixzz2qKCI8ewB)
I didn't see anything about 500 miles?!??
Maybe I'm just a contrarian, but that looks more like tuning on the dyno than it does 500 miles on the road.
Doug
QuoteYou need to find a better dyno shop.
That is exactly one of the potential issues with using a dyno to break-in. There is no way to know if it's better or not. They may be great at tuning but not breaking-in.
Quote..it can be done on the dyno.
True it can be but not on that articles one..."After about a 10-minute warm-up at 2,500 rpm or so, this roller-cammed engine was declared ready to do some serious power pulls. ...The results of the first pull really impressed me. ...Obviously, this guy knew what combinations worked. Having announced we were all done and it was lunchtime, I took the opportunity to pull the plugs to see what the mixture spread looked like. I also looked at the bores while doing this, and they did not look good! There were fine scores in every cylinder and deeper scores in some. In less than an hour's running, this engine had completely bypassed the broken-in phase of its life and had gone straight to the wearing or worn-out phase."
QuoteI didn't see anything about 500 miles?!??
500 miles is a fairly common number not only used by Harley but even for Corvettes in their manuals and many other vehicle manuals. I believe the closer you get to the 500 miles the reason is more for gear wear patterns to be established under normal loads. Like I said previously I do think the rings are mostly seated by 250 miles if broken in per the manufacturers specs.
I'll ride it to break it in. Like you all said it's a personal choice. Good discussion.
'True it can be but not on that articles one..."After about a 10-minute warm-up at 2,500 rpm or so, this roller-cammed engine was declared ready to do some serious power pulls.'
I don't think anybody said that a 10 minute warm-up and then a full throttle pull was a good idea. Not me for sure.
This resembles a case of someone only seeing what they want to see.
Doug
Quote from: uglyDougly on January 13, 2014, 08:29:54 PM
'True it can be but not on that articles one..."After about a 10-minute warm-up at 2,500 rpm or so, this roller-cammed engine was declared ready to do some serious power pulls.'
I don't think anybody said that a 10 minute warm-up and then a full throttle pull was a good idea. Not me for sure.
This resembles a case of someone only seeing what they want to see.
Doug
It was an example of a dyno not doing it right, not an indication of what someone here said. I never said someone here said it. If you're going to do it on a dyno pray they do it right.
The want to see always comes after the in-depth investigations.
Think about this as well, out of all the motorcycles ever created how many do you think were broken in by riding versus on a dyno compared to how many were not broken in correctly? I think it is safe to say the overwhelming majority of proper break ins have occurred by owners riding and following the manufacturers break in specs rather than on a dyno. I like being part of a successful overwhelming majority.
However, I would be convinced to break in on a dyno if I can be present and the dyno operator follows the manufacturers break in specs and it does not cost anymore than me riding it to break it in. I don't know, one of those may be a deal killer. ;-p
Quote from: RideFree on January 14, 2014, 06:50:38 PM
Think about this as well, out of all the motorcycles ever created how many do you think were broken in by riding versus on a dyno compared to how many were not broken in correctly? I think it is safe to say the overwhelming majority of proper break ins have occurred by owners riding and following the manufacturers break in specs rather than on a dyno. I like being part of a successful overwhelming majority.
And how many of those motorcycles left the factory with a completely unknown tune for the new engine? We are not talking about a brand new bike with a factory tune ready for break in. These are typically fresh builds without a tune. You have to ask yourself "do you want to ride with a complete unknown for 500 miles or do you want to get it tuned and running right for the next 100K miles?". For us it's a no brainer. JMO .... good luck with your untuned break in.
You need to look at the percentage of bikes that get hurt during brake in on the dyno and compare that to the percentage that get hurt by being broke in by riding on the road. I do not think you would win that one there just are not that many bad dyno operators out there braking bikes in.
QuoteWe are not talking about a brand new bike with a factory tune ready for break in.
I guess I thought it was a given that you would not break in a bike without an adequate tune for the break in range. And if you are building your own engine you would not do it without wideband sensors. I don't think those two things are even up for discussion as they are givens, at least for me they are. You can get adequate tunes from many sources including a dyno. Plus you do not need a full WOT tune prior to breaking in a bike.
QuoteYou need to look at the percentage of bikes that get hurt during brake in on the dyno and compare that to the percentage that get hurt by being broke in by riding on the road.
There are no numbers for that, that's why I said it is safe to say and not I have the numbers. I'll respectfully disagree with the winning thing although I am not really interested in winning per se as we are talking about opinions here not finish lines and further offer that by following a manufacturer's break in specs of factory engines with a built engine by someone that has not broken in an engine before that they will have success. Furthermore, it is very possible that only those that have deviated from the normal manufacturer's break in spec have improper break ins as evidenced by the one improper dyno break in example I offered. One is not the majority obviously, I'm sure there are many others not documented but if it can happen, it can happen to me and others.
Quote from: RideFree on January 14, 2014, 08:07:18 PM
I guess I thought it was a given that you would not break in a bike without an adequate tune for the break in range. And if you are building your own engine you would not do it without wideband sensors. I don't think those two things are even up for discussion as they are givens, at least for me they are. You can get adequate tunes from many sources including a dyno. Plus you do not need a full WOT tune prior to breaking in a bike.
So you are saying that you need an adequate tune for break in? How do you get an adequate tune if you don't put it on a dyno? But you can't put it on a dyno until it is broke in? That's your catch 22.
Why wouldn't you do it without wideband sensors? You would have to ride it without it being tuned to use the wide band sensors to change the tune, correct? So why is that different than putting it on a dyno and making an adjustment? On the dyno it is a much more controlled environment and whacking the throttle to wide open isn't what tuning is all about. There are hours and miles before you even get to 4000 RPM's. Much of it in 5%, 10%, 15%, 20%, 25%, 30%, 40%, ect .. at each of the following RPM... 1500 RPM, 1750 RPM, 2000 RPM, 2250 RPM, 2500 RPM, 2750 RPM, 3000 RPM 3500 RPM and 4000 RPM. By the time all of those are done, the engine is broken in. All while monitoring the engine temp, head temp, cylinder temp, oil temp, tire temp, exhaust temp, ect... None of that is done on the road.
QuoteSo you are saying that you need an adequate tune for break in? How do you get an adequate tune if you don't put it on a dyno? But you can't put it on a dyno until it is broke in? That's your catch 22.
There's no catch 22 unless you can't build and successfully break in an engine without a dyno. You can do it without a dyno. That brings up a good question, what came first the engine or the dyno? Did they build a dyno and then say hey now I can build an engine with this thing or was it the other way around? A dyno is a tool that is not absolutely necessary.
QuoteWhy wouldn't you do it without wideband sensors?
I want that data point. I don't need all the data points that a dyno gives you. Sometimes too much info over complicates.
QuoteThere are hours and miles before you even get to 4000 RPM's.
Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. Plus you have to use the dyno brake to drag the engine down through the gears between the accelerations. Just like you would when riding it.
QuoteAll while monitoring the engine temp, head temp, cylinder temp, oil temp, tire temp, exhaust temp, ect... None of that is done on the road.
A dyno definitely has more bells and whistles than the road but it also has a higher possibility of not doing it correctly. I've built engines and had none of that. How hot is the inside of your thigh, how much is it smoking or not if it's a 2 stroke, how does it sound, what color are the pipes, no that's just the new paint burning off, etc. It can all be done without a dyno. True a dyno is nice but not absolutely necessary.
If you dyno operators take anything away from this thread, don't shortcut a recommended manufacturer's break in specs. As was said, "There are hours and miles before you even get to 4000 RPM's." I like that.
I just don't see how you can rationalize that a street break in, which forces you to be at the mercy of prevailing road/traffic/weather conditions, which may cause you to stray outside your beloved "manufacturers break in procedure", vs a break in on a dyno(by someone who knows what they're doing, of course), where virtually every condition is under control, and the engine can be monitored?
To each, his own.
Jeff
Just as the manufacturer has to meet a different standard when making the calibration (emissions vs drivability.)
The 'Manufacturer's Recommended Break-in' has a whole lot more behind it than just running in your engine.
The manufacturer wants to 'break-in' the customer who may be new to motorcycling in general or this brand specifically.
The manufacturer wants to cover their behind in case one of the components fails early on. If something like that happens, the bike won't be going 110 mph when it does.
Plus, the 'Manufacturer Recommended Break-in' is a legal definition by which the dealer or manufacturer can deny you warranty.
I'm not trying to convert anybody, just stating the case.
Doug
Fairly certain every Harley that rolls off the assembly line does so with the same map it's shipped with, and one of the last steps is a run on the rollers right up to redline. Not WFO, but not a puss butt effort either.
The rings are already seated before you get the bike. The HD breakin period is letting all the bearings and bushings in the entire bike breakin.
Quote from: rageglide on January 15, 2014, 09:10:31 AM
Fairly certain every Harley that rolls off the assembly line does so with the same map it's shipped with, and one of the last steps is a run on the rollers right up to redline. Not WFO, but not a puss butt effort either.
The rings are already seated before you get the bike. The HD breakin period is letting all the bearings and bushings in the entire bike breakin.
Bearings and bushing don't breakin, if they rub each other they wear out.
A bushing surface absolutely breaks in. Ball and needle bearings don't, but they still "get to know each other". Everything loosen up a bit. Breaking in easy for 500 miles hopefully catches the bearings and bushings that fail for whatever reason, too tight, bur, etc.
I agree a bushing doesn't break in the way piston ring/cylinder wall does. There's that layer of oil that *should* keep the surfaces apart. But even an extremely low mileage properly lubricated bushing will show traces of wear as will the mating surface.
Quote from: RideFree on January 14, 2014, 09:50:44 PM
QuoteThere are hours and miles before you even get to 4000 RPM's.
Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. Plus you have to use the dyno brake to drag the engine down through the gears between the accelerations. Just like you would when riding it.
I am starting to get it, you don't understand dynos at all. None of what you state above is accurate. The brake applies a load to hold the engine at a specific RPM, twist the throttle more and the brake applies more to maintain the given RPM. At no point do we use a brake to "drag the engine down". It allows us to fully control the load on the engine.
Quote from: akjeff on January 15, 2014, 06:08:53 AM
I just don't see how you can rationalize that a street break in, which forces you to be at the mercy of prevailing road/traffic/weather conditions, which may cause you to stray outside your beloved "manufacturers break in procedure", vs a break in on a dyno(by someone who knows what they're doing, of course), where virtually every condition is under control, and the engine can be monitored?
I definitely ride not as a site seeing ride or a to work and back ride during the break in period. I ride as a break in ride in an industrial area where there is almost no traffic and long 35 and 50 MPH roads. I used to break in new vehicles engines on the 405 freeway in the San Fernando Valley between Devonshire and Sherman Way at 4 am in the morning. No one else around but a few CHP. So I recommend during the break in period riding with the specific intent in areas just for breaking it in.
I know I am going to regret saying this but here goes; the dyno actually presents the need for increased monitoring that is not necessary on the road. As an example, I don't need tire temp and some of the other temps on the road even during break in. But the dyno, where you do not have a 50 MPH fan as an example you now need those temps.
Quote from: springer- on January 15, 2014, 03:13:41 PM
Quote from: RideFree on January 14, 2014, 09:50:44 PM
QuoteThere are hours and miles before you even get to 4000 RPM's.
Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. Plus you have to use the dyno brake to drag the engine down through the gears between the accelerations. Just like you would when riding it.
I am starting to get it, you don't understand dynos at all. None of what you state above is accurate. The brake applies a load to hold the engine at a specific RPM, twist the throttle more and the brake applies more to maintain the given RPM. At no point do we use a brake to "drag the engine down". It allows us to fully control the load on the engine.
So what you are saying is you cannot maintain or vary the load the dyno applies to the rear tire to engine brake the bike?
Quote from: RideFree on January 15, 2014, 03:16:29 PM
I definitely ride not as a site seeing ride or a to work and back ride during the break in period. I ride as a break in ride in an industrial area where there is almost no traffic and long 35 and 50 MPH roads. I used to break in new vehicles engines on the 405 freeway in the San Fernando Valley between Devonshire and Sherman Way at 4 am in the morning. No one else around but a few CHP. So I recommend during the break in period riding with the specific intent in areas just for breaking it in.
So, how do you ride it then?
Quote from: RideFree on January 15, 2014, 03:16:29 PM
Quote from: akjeff on January 15, 2014, 06:08:53 AM
I just don't see how you can rationalize that a street break in, which forces you to be at the mercy of prevailing road/traffic/weather conditions, which may cause you to stray outside your beloved "manufacturers break in procedure", vs a break in on a dyno(by someone who knows what they're doing, of course), where virtually every condition is under control, and the engine can be monitored?
I definitely ride not as a site seeing ride or a to work and back ride during the break in period. I ride as a break in ride in an industrial area where there is almost no traffic and long 35 and 50 MPH roads. I used to break in new vehicles engines on the 405 freeway in the San Fernando Valley between Devonshire and Sherman Way at 4 am in the morning. No one else around but a few CHP. So I recommend during the break in period riding with the specific intent in areas just for breaking it in.
I know I am going to regret saying this but here goes; the dyno actually presents the need for increased monitoring that is not necessary on the road. As an example, I don't need tire temp and some of the other temps on the road even during break in. But the dyno, where you do not have a 50 MPH fan as an example you now need those temps.
So where do you get the idea we don't have fans? no problem with enough air flow and if you are a decent tuner then tire temp hardly ever becomes an issue in all but the hottest of days.
Look, it's obvious you are backed into a corner with your original comments and things have been explained over and over with none of it sinking in. The dyno does NOT present the need for increased monitoring it makes increased monitoring possible. How much clearer can that be?
Quote from: BVHOG on January 15, 2014, 04:12:21 PM
Quote from: RideFree on January 15, 2014, 03:16:29 PM
Quote from: akjeff on January 15, 2014, 06:08:53 AM
I just don't see how you can rationalize that a street break in, which forces you to be at the mercy of prevailing road/traffic/weather conditions, which may cause you to stray outside your beloved "manufacturers break in procedure", vs a break in on a dyno(by someone who knows what they're doing, of course), where virtually every condition is under control, and the engine can be monitored?
I definitely ride not as a site seeing ride or a to work and back ride during the break in period. I ride as a break in ride in an industrial area where there is almost no traffic and long 35 and 50 MPH roads. I used to break in new vehicles engines on the 405 freeway in the San Fernando Valley between Devonshire and Sherman Way at 4 am in the morning. No one else around but a few CHP. So I recommend during the break in period riding with the specific intent in areas just for breaking it in.
I know I am going to regret saying this but here goes; the dyno actually presents the need for increased monitoring that is not necessary on the road. As an example, I don't need tire temp and some of the other temps on the road even during break in. But the dyno, where you do not have a 50 MPH fan as an example you now need those temps.
So where do you get the idea we don't have fans? no problem with enough air flow and if you are a decent tuner then tire temp hardly ever becomes an issue in all but the hottest of days.
Look, it's obvious you are backed into a corner with your original comments and things have been explained over and over with none of it sinking in. The dyno does NOT present the need for increased monitoring it makes increased monitoring possible. How much clearer can that be?
Number one: Learn to read, I said 50 MPH fans, not no fans.
Number two: I'll do it my way that I have had many decades of success with, you do it your way and good luck to you.
Time for me to grab my poles and go fishing. Chow
Quote from: hrdtail78 on January 15, 2014, 03:52:22 PM
So, how do you ride it then?
Since you asked without demeaning and I hope you're not just fishing. I ride it normally to warm it up then do hard as legally possible accelerations below 3000 rpm through the gears to 50 to 60 mph then engine braking down the gears. The accelerations are probably no more than 40% throttle. Ride it a little normally then do it again and again. After 50 miles do it up to 3500 rpm. Then while I'm riding around normally and looking for highway on ramps, i.e. a clear area with no one around me I will slow, i.e. turning onto the on-ramp and hard accelerate. As I get closer to 250 miles on the bike I reduce the frequency of the harder accelerations phasing in normal accelerations and reduce the engine braking.
I think the rules of the road have a self-limiting affect that helps not over break it in. One can get carried away and one can baby it too much so something moderate. You need to accelerate but not WOT and then you need to cool by engine braking. That is how I have done it for decades and with vehicles and have not had any issues and enjoyed doing it. To start with its the cycling the legally hard acceleration with the engine braking, cycles, cycles, cycles with in the recommended break-in specs.
Thanks for asking.
Thanks for the reply.
When somebody is convinced of something. There is no changing their mind sometimes.
Not fishing, just wanted to know how you do things. Funny thing is most will probably agree with your technics. With little twist here and there. Guys can read the thread and decide for themselves.
Quote from: RideFree on January 15, 2014, 04:23:08 PM
Quote from: BVHOG on January 15, 2014, 04:12:21 PM
Quote from: RideFree on January 15, 2014, 03:16:29 PM
Quote from: akjeff on January 15, 2014, 06:08:53 AM
I just don't see how you can rationalize that a street break in, which forces you to be at the mercy of prevailing road/traffic/weather conditions, which may cause you to stray outside your beloved "manufacturers break in procedure", vs a break in on a dyno(by someone who knows what they're doing, of course), where virtually every condition is under control, and the engine can be monitored?
I definitely ride not as a site seeing ride or a to work and back ride during the break in period. I ride as a break in ride in an industrial area where there is almost no traffic and long 35 and 50 MPH roads. I used to break in new vehicles engines on the 405 freeway in the San Fernando Valley between Devonshire and Sherman Way at 4 am in the morning. No one else around but a few CHP. So I recommend during the break in period riding with the specific intent in areas just for breaking it in.
I know I am going to regret saying this but here goes; the dyno actually presents the need for increased monitoring that is not necessary on the road. As an example, I don't need tire temp and some of the other temps on the road even during break in. But the dyno, where you do not have a 50 MPH fan as an example you now need those temps.
So where do you get the idea we don't have fans? no problem with enough air flow and if you are a decent tuner then tire temp hardly ever becomes an issue in all but the hottest of days.
Look, it's obvious you are backed into a corner with your original comments and things have been explained over and over with none of it sinking in. The dyno does NOT present the need for increased monitoring it makes increased monitoring possible. How much clearer can that be?
Number one: Learn to read, I said 50 MPH fans, not no fans.
Number two: I'll do it my way that I have had many decades of success with, you do it your way and good luck to you.
Time for me to grab my poles and go fishing. Chow
I am not sure these fans don't blow more than 50mph, but whatever. I will continue to do things my way mostly because I have the option of doing both and have done both and have yet to have problems either way. The difference is the dyno can do everything the road test can do plus more. If I came across harsh then you should go back and read your "whacking the throttle" post. It made it obvious to me that you have never been around an experienced dyno tuner and I took it as a rip on the dyno tuning trade in general.
QuoteIt made it obvious to me that you have never been around an experienced dyno tuner and I took it as a rip on the dyno tuning trade in general.
Maybe I've been around bad tuners. I'm not ripping on the dyno industry. It is a tool albeit a tool that has the capability to do invisible damage mush more so than any other tools if not used properly. I cringe taking one of my bikes to a dyno. I do not let anyone ride any of my bikes and only a few family and close friends have ever sat on them.
It's like and this may be unspoken until now, I want the dyno operator to take me out to dinner the night before and whisper sweet nothings in my ear. Then when I pick her up from the dyno, I know she is disgusted with me for making her do that with another person, so I have to go for a long ride afterwards to make it up to her and then eat ice cream out of the container. Reminds me of The Gift by the Velvet Underground.
Dyno operators say it themselves maybe you got a bad dyno operator, make sure you get a good dyno operator, make sure they know the tuner you are using. A lot of consumer variables to go wrong. The consumer industry and dynos is definitely different than the racing and R & D industry and dynos. It's like there is no sign indicating this shop has a bad dyno operator. There's no way to know until you are bitten by premature failures.
Just my take on it.
Found the real answer on Wikipedia :teeth:
For many kinds of equipment (with automotive engines being the prime example), the time it takes to complete break-in procedures has decreased significantly from a number of days to a few hours, for several reasons.
The main reason is that the factories in which they are produced are now capable of better machining and assembly. For example, it is easier to hold tighter tolerances now, and the average surface finish of a new cylinder wall has improved. Manufacturers decades ago were capable of such accuracy and precision, but not with as low a unit cost or with as much ease. Therefore, the average engine made today resembles, in some technical respects, the top-end custom work of back then.[5] For some equipment, break-in is now done at the factory, obviating end-user break-in. This is advantageous for several reasons. It is a selling point with customers who don't want to have to worry about break-in and want full performance "right out of the box". And it also aligns with the fact that compliance rates are always uncertain in the hands of end users. As with medical compliance or regulatory compliance, an authority can give all the instructions it wants, but there is no guarantee that the end user will follow them.
The other reason for shorter break-in regimens today is that a greater amount of science has been applied to the understanding of break-in, and this has led to the realization that some of the old, long, painstaking break-in regimens were based on specious reasoning[citation needed]. People developed elaborate theories on what was needed and why, and it was hard to sift the empirical evidence in trying to test or confirm the theories. Anecdotal evidence and confirmation bias definitely played at least some part. Today engineers can confidently advise users not to put too much stock in old theories of long, elaborate break-in regimens[citation needed]. Some users will not give credence to the engineers and will stick to their own ideas anyway; but their careful break-in beliefs are still harmless and serve roughly like a placebo in allowing them to assure themselves that they've maximized the equipment's working lifespan through their due diligence.
JMO, but engine parts have improved leaps and bounds over the days I first started building engines for quarter mile drag cars, etc. Interestingly, I don't see a lot of difference in the break in "recommendations" since those early days back in the late 60s.
My theory is that immediate WOT and consistent RPMs are the worst thing you can do to a new engine. On the other hand cylinders and rings actually set so quickly with new technology that they are mostly set before the owner gets the bike home from the dealer. I have always put more focus in the first 50 miles on keeping the RPMs in a regular state of change. Then at 50 miles I apply the "run it like you plan to for the life of the bike" theory. For me that means; run the crap out of it WOT and cruise at changing RPMs.
As far as dangerous lean conditions during break-in, a new bike gets my normal break-in. If you added anything to the new bike to increase flow even an air filter or exhaust, you need a richer map pre-break-in. A new performance engine needs a "in the correct neighborhood" tune for break-in as well.
If you have easy access to a dyno for a newly built motor, that would be a real advantage as explained above.
JMO JB
Quote from: RideFree on January 16, 2014, 07:59:58 AM
QuoteIt made it obvious to me that you have never been around an experienced dyno tuner and I took it as a rip on the dyno tuning trade in general.
Maybe I've been around bad tuners. I'm not ripping on the dyno industry. It is a tool albeit a tool that has the capability to do invisible damage mush more so than any other tools if not used properly. I cringe taking one of my bikes to a dyno. I do not let anyone ride any of my bikes and only a few family and close friends have ever sat on them.
It's like and this may be unspoken until now, I want the dyno operator to take me out to dinner the night before and whisper sweet nothings in my ear. Then when I pick her up from the dyno, I know she is disgusted with me for making her do that with another person, so I have to go for a long ride afterwards to make it up to her and then eat ice cream out of the container. Reminds me of The Gift by the Velvet Underground.
Dyno operators say it themselves maybe you got a bad dyno operator, make sure you get a good dyno operator, make sure they know the tuner you are using. A lot of consumer variables to go wrong. The consumer industry and dynos is definitely different than the racing and R & D industry and dynos. It's like there is no sign indicating this shop has a bad dyno operator. There's no way to know until you are bitten by premature failures.
Just my take on it.
that is some funny chit, you really do love your bike and I do understand how you feel, I mean you wouldn't want to treat it like any old whore and have everyone in the neighborhood riding her and not helping with maintenance or anything. Next thing you know she's worn out prematurely and ends up being a loos riding ill handling POS.
How about the first oil change after the build and tune?
How soon or during the dyno tune?
How many shops are pro clean? Leading me to wonder about crap in the oil and having clean oil during the break-in dyno tune.
Good grief.
The internet is all about who you choose to believe in (no shortage of experts & theories).
If you don't "do it" every day, you're left trying to figure out which person to put your faith in.
Well, I do "do it" (break-in & tune) every day, and I 100% agree with and put my faith in the combo of uglyDougly (Doug) and Mike Roland.
Everything Doug said is spot-on.
Quote from: strokerjlk on January 01, 2014, 06:01:23 PM
Quote from: springer- on January 01, 2014, 05:25:54 PM
IMO, it's a double edged sword .... sort of.
Break in on a dyno can be very controlled and the map adjusted to prevent excessively lean conditions.
On the other hand, a fresh build (that is out of your control) may be a disaster waiting to happen. In our case we prefer that you at least have a few miles on it to make sure it isn't a time bomb waiting to explode. And the last thing we want is a bike that has issues. No amount of dyno break in will make up for a valve hitting a piston, for example. Check with your tuner to see if they can supply a map for initial startup and running ... usually an extra rich map, IMO richer is better than leaner.
Overall I am all for break in on the dyno.
:agree:
but you know how many "break in maps" I have handed out .....that were no shows :down: ...double edge sword for sure :up:
I know this is a older post but I just saw it.
Strokerjlk. For those "break in maps" why not charge a "deposit" towards the tune. Say $75 -100 credited back to them when they come back for their tune. $500 tune minus $100 deposit, they pay the remaining $400 when the tune of complete. If they don't show in 6 months they lose their deposit.
Seems fair to me. Your not working for nothing and the customers not out anything if they complete a tune which they really need anyway.
Win win.
The only other person who has rode my bike is Stroker JLK. And that is after giving him a fresh engine build to break in on the dyno.