Why last thread was locked??? No sense. Anyway......one last question, cause you guys have seen it all.
2/1 would work great. But, very little added power, compared to a stock decatted h/pipe with good slip ons.
This thread is not to discredit 2/1 pipe. It's to understand what's a benefit and whats not.
All this b.s. about this head and that pipe combo are awesome!!!
Maybe a head gasket change, decatted h/pipe, and good slip ons would save someone a couple thousand and net like results?
Last comment true or false?
Quote from: JT Metal on February 12, 2016, 09:11:58 AM
Why last thread was locked??? No sense. Anyway......one last question, cause you guys have seen it all.
2/1 would work great. But, very little added power, compared to a stock decatted h/pipe with good slip ons.
This thread is not to discredit 2/1 pipe. It's to understand what's a benefit and whats not.
All this b.s. about this head and that pipe combo are awesome!!!
Maybe a head gasket change, decatted h/pipe, and good slip ons would save someone a couple thousand and net like results?
Last comment true or false?
I would suggest putting the peak numbers aside for a moment and look at the average tq that is produced where you want to ride the most.
2-1, 2-1-2, 2-2 all produce different shape curves. The locked post had a dyno sheet comparing 2-1-2 vs a 2-1. This is what I am used to seeing in the differences for these two style of pipes. Even if the sheet posted isn't with the best, ideal pipes being compared. Another set of slip-ons isn't going to get the TQ up down low as much as a good 2-1. A little time in the dyno section comparing shapes of curves of different style of pipes can confirm this for yourself.
Save thousands of dollars? IIRC the Drago 2-1 is $650-700?
Without getting too deep into the subject of tuning and sensor placement and cross talk. Uncatting a stock head pipe can induce tuning/ running problems if you want to use the benefit of 12mm sensors for closed loop operation.
Quote from: JT Metal on February 12, 2016, 09:11:58 AM
Why last thread was locked??? No sense. Anyway......one last question, cause you guys have seen it all.
2/1 would work great. But, very little added power, compared to a stock decatted h/pipe with good slip ons.
This thread is not to discredit 2/1 pipe. It's to understand what's a benefit and whats not.
All this b.s. about this head and that pipe combo are awesome!!!
Maybe a head gasket change, decatted h/pipe, and good slip ons would save someone a couple thousand and net like results?
Last comment true or false?
The last question is true .
The stock head pipe is capable of mid 120's . It works very well with a short cam like you are using . It is smaller in diameter and works better than most of the bigger X pipes ,when used like you are using it . You can choose a variety of mufflers to use and move the curve around some . The way you are using it , it will work every bit as good as a 2-1 .
Absolutely a stock uncatted header is capable of mid 120's. I'd bet it can go better than that. I got a 124 running around out there that is putting down 167hp. I bet it could see 130 with a uncatted header. Still doesn't mean it isn't a choke point and a better header would do more with less.
There is no choke point with his combination .
I think he has relized that now though .
JT here are a couple links for you to look over, they are not exactly your build but you can see that the 2-1-2 does not mean you have to loose bottom tq or area under the curve.
What it really comes down to is matching the entire exhaust to the rest of the build and the way you ride regardless of which style you choose, 2-1-2 or 2-1.
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,63670.msg681040.html#msg681040 (http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,63670.msg681040.html#msg681040)
The little dip in this one at 1900 is the clutch slipping and it does not hook good until just past 3000 rpm
but you get the idea.
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,72955.msg795650.html#msg795650 (http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,72955.msg795650.html#msg795650)
Nobody is saying a 2-1 is bad but if you have a decatted pipe and can get just as good a curve with the right mufflers and a good tune and save the money why not.
So, where is the comparison? How do we know that the tq wouldn't be better with a 2-1? Nothing like seeing a real test with back to back runs to really have a comparison. All I see is one run on each with a whole bunch of speculation.
three factory 103 stage 1's
V&H power duals with rush slip on's-Blue
Reinhert Extreme 2-2-Red
Fat cat 2-1-Green
2-1 is not always better
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/dyno%20sheets/dynosheets164.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/dyno%20sheets/dynosheets164.jpg.html)
JT
Who is going to tune for you?
No, a 2-1 isn't always better. There some good benefits from a good X pipe, but that's not a decatted stocker.
Cams need some overlap before the exhaust comes into real play.
Quote from: JT Metal on February 12, 2016, 09:11:58 AM
Why last thread was locked??? No sense. Anyway......one last question, cause you guys have seen it all.
2/1 would work great. But, very little added power, compared to a stock decatted h/pipe with good slip ons.
This thread is not to discredit 2/1 pipe. It's to understand what's a benefit and whats not.
All this b.s. about this head and that pipe combo are awesome!!!
Maybe a head gasket change, decatted h/pipe, and good slip ons would save someone a couple thousand and net like results?
Last comment true or false?
this is the same cam as your running with a stock de catted exhaust . look around at all the 555 cam 2-1 dyno sheets you can find and compare it to this one to see what you think
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/dyno%20sheets/555%20tq%20103-1_1.png) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/dyno%20sheets/555%20tq%20103-1_1.png.html)
this is a stage 2 96 ci wood 5-6 cams . de catted stock exhaust. rush slip on's
when your done looking at 103 graphs of 2-1's take a look at stage 2 96's with 2-1's and compare to this one.
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/dyno%20sheets/dynosheets286.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/dyno%20sheets/dynosheets286.jpg.html)
here is a video of a stock headpipe ,on my bike.
my homemade 2-1-2-1 exhaust. it has a thunder header for a muffler. it was just a test . something that I wanted to do ,just to see.
the bike made 144 hp with a wegner 2-1 ,it made 124 with this exhaust.
https://youtu.be/JFdXezQ1xYI (https://youtu.be/JFdXezQ1xYI)
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/dyno%20sheets/dynosheets297.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/dyno%20sheets/dynosheets297.jpg.html)
Quote from: hrdtail78 on February 12, 2016, 05:00:13 PM
JT
Who is going to tune for you?
No, a 2-1 isn't always better. There some good benefits from a good X pipe, but that's not a decatted stocker.
Cams need some overlap before the exhaust comes into real play.
Pm sent
Quote from: JT Metal on February 12, 2016, 09:15:54 PM
Quote from: hrdtail78 on February 12, 2016, 05:00:13 PM
JT
Who is going to tune for you?
No, a 2-1 isn't always better. There some good benefits from a good X pipe, but that's not a decatted stocker.
Cams need some overlap before the exhaust comes into real play.
Pm sent
JT I can suggest a couple tuners in the Illinois area that are capable of tuning a decatted pipe and good mufflers. I would not let worrying about getting it tuned even play a part in the decision on what pipe you like or can afford. What you save on the pipe you can use toward the tune.
Not sure why it would even be brought up in a discussion about picking an exhaust system, I have seen people ask what efi tuneing device you use because some dyno shops can only work with one brand but tuning all the different exhausts comes with the territory for dyno shops.
Simple answer. If he is going to get his bike tuned on a dyno by a good tuner that will take the time to do honest back to back testing. I would suggest getting a test 2-1 and I would send him a FM SS Xpipe that could also be thrown in the test. Since I now know who is going to tune it. A 2-1 Drago pipe is probably already there, and I have no problem sending the Xpipe. I am sure the tuner would have no problem sending me the run files and test results.
This would take all the guessing out of the equation and is the best way to find out what is truely the best pipe for his combo, riding style and want.
Sharing test results with members is always good and an extra test with an extra x pipe will give more information but will he get the answer to the question in the OP which was the decatted head pipe with crushers vs the 2-1 pipe? It will be interesting to see the FM X vs the decatted head pipe back to back with the crushers on a build like this. I have seen some testing that indicates there is a build point you must cross before you get worth while gains from the bigger better head pipes compared to the decat pipe and when you account for pipe cost, the savings can often help pay for a good dyno tune.
Quote from: 1FSTRK on February 13, 2016, 07:03:19 AMSharing test results with members is always good and an extra test with an extra x pipe will give more information but will he get the answer to the question in the OP which was the decatted head pipe with crushers vs the 2-1 pipe? It will be interesting to see the FM X vs the decatted head pipe back to back with the crushers on a build like this. I have seen some testing that indicates there is a build point you must cross before you get worth while gains from the bigger better head pipes compared to the decat pipe and when you account for pipe cost, the savings can often help pay for a good dyno tune.
:up:
I have seen the same thing with the stock 2-1-2 de catted head pipe.
I love back to back testing. it is good to see this go from a bang for the buck tech question to a all out test.
:beer: to all that will donate their time,parts and money to move this into something so worth while.
Eric on the tuning of the de catted headpipe.
it can be a little tricky tuning the pipe without proper equipment .
the 96 ci that I posted was brought to me from a dealer. it made good wide open throttle numbers,better than mine were.
the problem was the partial throttle areas. the tech only has the single DJ sniffer to switch between head pipes for WOT and smart tune to tune the partial throttle areas.
good tech. he does good on most stuff,he just had a rough time with this one.
Ok......so here's the story.
I wanted to find a used set of crushers to give to Frank at Drago bike works, to finish my bike. I know that the s.e. slip ons are going to hold it back. The cost of new slip ons are $550. Frank's pipe is $750.
The dyno is going to come up short and Frank is going to add one of his pipes to help the numbers. This is not the direction I wanted to go. But since the bike is in his possession (he picked it up yesterday afternoon) the time to get the slip ons to him is getting late.
It's like heading out to your favorite steakhouse and bringing your own steak.
None of these is on Frank. All of this is because I believe in the stock header and crushed slip ons. Will do the same, on the dyno as any 2/1 pipe. For my particular build.
Frank seems to believe it as well. As my build is just an ordinary hotdog.
Frank is in possession of the bike now. If you guys would like to use my ride to further this debate, by all means. Contact Frank and do whatever it is.
I think members would like to know what's what. And I believe you gentleman to be very good at what you do.
I personally want to thank you guys. But still a grey cloud hanging over my head. Lol. But that's not your problem.
I think it would be nice to know as to wether or not a 2/1 has added value, at the level of my bike.
Wanted to follow up. But I'm too stupid to post pick of sheet. Over 30mins trying.
2012 103"
Stage 1.5 heads
555torqster
Open a/c
Decatted head pipe w s.e. slip ons. 100h/p & 112tq
I'm not sure another set of slip ons would have cured the dip @ 2800. Could this be crosstalk, reversion???