At a dealer today in the Tennessee ,got pulled off to the side, my salesman buddy said they have 7 that they can't sell. When they start them up there mosquito killers. They had one in the shop & heads off,oil on top of pistons. :nix:
Engineers supposed to be hear next week.
Any other dealer techs see this.
No further details.
86
I was in Smoky Mt Harley in Aug. right after the bikes were released,
asked a salesperson to fire one up, she did and it blew a good bit of smoke,
she shut it off right quick,
thought to myself, whoa, that's not good.
None of the 5 or 6 we have done show this....haven't heard of it either ....don't mean its not happening though :nix:
If this is true, not saying it isn't, then its one of two things. Either that is the unluckiest dealer on the planet or HD has a serious problem.
Traditionally we'd say there are only two ways for oil to get into the combustion chamber, up past the rings or down past the guides.... with these new heads engines we have two new additional possibilities, leaking across the head gaskets (unlikely as the running compression > oil system pressure) or "something else"
"something else" could be all sorts of things from fit & finish tolerances to excess porosity in metal parts.
The guy I mentioned previously ex salesman for a major London HD dealer (no names and no pack drill) says they have had to M8's in for repair, he's out of the loop and nobody is saying anything details wise, but he was told in both cases the used parts were DHL overnight to the mothership. He *thinks* it was oil pumps.
Has to be said, any new engine / product line, YOU'RE GONNA GET FAILURES, you're always a bit of a beta tester, and hell it's under warranty and you'll get a loaner, it would be incredibly unusual if there were NOT failures, so it's a real stretch to go from the odd HEARSAY (such as I just posted) story to the sky is falling.
The reality is even if the M8 engine did have major issues, HD either does sufficient factory recalls to make it all good, or HD ceases trading, and I defy you to name a vehicle manufacturer that does not have regular major recalls.
If you were a shareholder of HD such a scenario as a "bad motor that needs fixin'" should worry you.
If you're an owner, not so much, the factory has your back.
Line up the new model range by kerb weight, which ones have the new M8? All the heaviest ones.
Sure, also happens to be the top of line expensive ones, but HD didn't "baby" the new motor, they put it in the bikes most likely to do long hard miles... think on that.
Could also be *nothing* wrong with the new motor design, *unless* you put a production line worker who has been building twinkies for 20 years on it, and he does "procedure 127" from muscle memory and not the new way for the new motor...
Look at the new Samsung Note 7 with the battery recall, all that changed was a supplier going from prototyping production volumes on one assembly line to production volume production on other lines, with my old Note 4, no biggie, post out a new battery to everyone who bought a Note 4, user pops the case and swaps the battery, job done..... "minor" design change to the Note 7 to make the battery integral and lo and behold you're looking at a recall that will cost Samsung a billion... but they *have* to do it, and everyone who bought a Note 7 will end up with a working Note 7.
(unless they jump ship, no longer trusting Samsung, and land in exactly the same place with a different brand and a new product design)
New twinkie breakout bought in 2016 should be the best most bugs ironed out twinkie of all time.
In 20 years the M8 will be in the same place, or HD will be history like Excelsior.
Not only possibly a ring sealing problem or valve seals, we also have possibly bad head casting and coolant oil or water getting into exhaust or combustion chamber.
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Quote from: 06roadglide on September 09, 2016, 04:42:25 AM
Not only possibly a ring sealing problem or valve seals, we also have possibly bad head casting and coolant oil or water getting into exhaust or combustion chamber.
Good point. HD has had some porosity issues so guess that is possible with the heads. My question is why they have porosity issues to begin with? I have experienced it myself
Quote from: rich1 on September 09, 2016, 05:21:04 AM
Quote from: 06roadglide on September 09, 2016, 04:42:25 AM
Not only possibly a ring sealing problem or valve seals, we also have possibly bad head casting and coolant oil or water getting into exhaust or combustion chamber.
Good point. HD has had some porosity issues so guess that is possible with the heads. My question is why they have porosity issues to begin with? I have experienced it myself
I had a set of 1977 Shovel heads that were lotus and oil would get into the intake ports. Only set I ever encountered.
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I have come across about a dozen new ones that have a rocker arm issue, loud as hell right out of the box, seeing some apart at dealers and some getting picked up by HD engineers, this is all in the Milwaukee area. As stated earlier, bugs to be worked out, any all new car, bike, boat motor, truck has this happen. Most important is how the dealers and mother ship take care of the consumer on this
I had a 05 road king in the shop for oil leak. Owner thought it was front rocker box or head gasket. Turned out, it was leaking oil from the front cylinder oil return passage. Leaked oil visibly right out the center of the cylinder when bike was warm and running. Bike was less than a year out of warranty so I tried to see if hd would take care of it since it was a bad casting. No luck from them, owner had to eat it.
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Quote from: 92flhtcu on September 09, 2016, 05:40:35 AM
I have come across about a dozen new ones that have a rocker arm issue, loud as hell right out of the box, seeing some apart at dealers and some getting picked up by HD engineers, this is all in the Milwaukee area. As stated earlier, bugs to be worked out, any all new car, bike, boat motor, truck has this happen. Most important is how the dealers and mother ship take care of the consumer on this
There will be valve train issues ( noise's) With No individual valve adjustment.
86
you know it on first start up, if it has the bad arm, it hammers like its going to grenade, if quiet on first start up, they seem to be ok so far, I have not come across any that started out quiet and then got loud(so far) Was told by a engineer that one tip on rocker arm too short in some cases......
I would think that every bike is ran at the final stage of assy, must be loud in York plant as the loud ones are REALLY loud and I could not see someone in QC letting it go....
I have seen two cranked up and revved by salesmen. Both would blow black puffs of smoke when they would shower down on them. Both were cold when they did this.
I realize there is warranty, but if the dealer does not offer a loaner, many will not, I am not riding until it gets straightened out. Also some forget how well HD took care of back cam bearings and chain tensioners in the early years of the Twin Cams, they would not fix it until it broke and then do a questionable repair.
The M8's might be a great engine in time, but I bought a '16 because I don't want to be a HD beta tester.
HD seems to be very interested and responsive fixing all of the issues, glass half full.
Plus just because something malfunctions this doesn't mean the design (engineering) is deficient, throwing out the baby with the bath water.
Quote from: HD Street Performance on September 09, 2016, 09:04:20 AM
HD seems to be very interested and responsive fixing all of the issues, glass half full.
Plus just because something malfunctions this doesn't mean the design (engineering) is deficient, throwing out the baby with the bath water.
Agree. Its way early. But it does make me wonder how Indian could create a clean sheet of paper power plant with their 111 and have virtually no issues. Better engineers or just lucky?
Quote from: Schex3x on September 08, 2016, 06:33:09 PM
I was in Smoky Mt Harley in Aug. right after the bikes were released,
asked a salesperson to fire one up, she did and it blew a good bit of smoke,
she shut it off right quick,
thought to myself, whoa, that's not good.
Today I went to the dealer for lunch. (They have a diner.) After eating I took a stroll on the floor to look at the 2017 Road King. First time for me seeing the new models in the flesh. I asked the guy to start it. Big bunch of blue smoke came out the pipes. He did not shut it down though and the smoke gradually diminished...I think it diminished. Kind of hard to see, but man...it really blew out a bunch of that blue smoke when he started it.
Residual break-in oil?
Just talked to a bud that works @ an HD dealer in northern IL ,they have 3 smoking bad on start up. Pulled one down cold,oil puddles on both pistons. :nix:
86
Surely by the time a new M/C reaches the floor a tech or two have done the pre-delivery check and ridden it? If it wasn't smoking during that inspection (maybe it was) then oil might come from above after sitting.
Apparently some do initially pass oil and have been quarantined. Probably some minor source soon to be resolved.
I wonder if the problem is with the oil cooled.... twin cooled..... or both?
Quote from: hattitude on September 09, 2016, 12:05:58 PM
I wonder if the problem is with the oil cooled.... twin cooled..... or both?
Of course, the RK I saw do it is oil cooled. I did not ask them to start a water cooled.
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Hmmmm.. saw the same thing the other day when I asked a salesperson to start one up for me.. woaah.. whats that?? same.. shut it right off..
I've 1,300 miles on my '17 SGS so far with no issues.
I'm doing an IB1000 this weekend to see how well it deals with sustained high-speed running.
I'm particularly interested in how they fixed the oil blow-by issue that plagued my '16 RGS. I read somewhere that they routed the oil back into the engine. On my RGS the air filter would get drenched even if I ran the oil level at the half mark, if I rode it at high speed for several hours.
So far the M8 107 has been the best (out of many) engines I have ever owned. It is, to me, the perfect combination of old and new technology.
Have you noted the VIN on those smoking motors?
Maybe it is a bad batch.
Would a dealer be more likely to get their bikes from the same batch?
Quote from: rich1 on September 09, 2016, 09:54:15 AM
Quote from: HD Street Performance on September 09, 2016, 09:04:20 AM
HD seems to be very interested and responsive fixing all of the issues, glass half full.
Plus just because something malfunctions this doesn't mean the design (engineering) is deficient, throwing out the baby with the bath water.
Agree. Its way early. But it does make me wonder how Indian could create a clean sheet of paper power plant with their 111 and have virtually no issues. Better engineers or just lucky?
Indian did have problems with the first year 111. It seems like the exhaust valve seats had a interference problem fit, and would come out of the heads. Indian replaced some of the bikes, on the spot, others were repaired.
The new M 8 Has a new breather system close to the Sporty Type...the Breather Valves are completely different ..should fix the carry over issues
Problem with Internet information is it is too readily available and taken out of context plus stirred a bit no way of forming intelligent data based conclusions. The scientific method and root cause analysis gets circumvented, bypassed, and a lot of bias and noise is injected.
Give these bikes and the MOCO a bit of time to get these released in significant numbers. Time will tell.
Don't want anybody to think I was bashing, I was just reporting what I have sen and what has been told to me by a engineer out of the Pilgrim/Juneau facilities
I was at a dealer today that had one in pieces, a piece of slag jammed in oil pump, new engine on the way
I have seen one new Indian 111 (brand new, never left dealer) with a broken valve spring, spring should have never been installed, it was so over heated it was purple, just missed by a assy tech at the plant
I really like the new engine, power, smooth, just not a beta tester, more like 5 yrs when I'd start looking, but thats me
Agree. Its way early. But it does make me wonder how Indian could create a clean sheet of paper power plant with their 111 and have virtually no issues. Better engineers or just lucky?
[/quote]
:up:
I doubt if Indian or Victory for that Matter have had less new product issues or have a superior product ......its just that your not on a Indian tech Talk Forum with over 21000 members from all around the Globe reporting seen and sometimes heard of Issues :wink:
Quote from: WI Bob on September 09, 2016, 10:46:21 PM
Agree. Its way early. But it does make me wonder how Indian could create a clean sheet of paper power plant with their 111 and have virtually no issues. Better engineers or just lucky?
:up:
[/quote]
Probably. :hyst: I don't think they had a 7 year compensator issue. Vic did but resolved it real fast.
Ron
Quote from: HD Street Performance on September 09, 2016, 08:39:53 PM
Problem with Internet information is it is too readily available and taken out of context plus stirred a bit no way of forming intelligent data based conclusions. The scientific method and root cause analysis gets circumvented, bypassed, and a lot of bias and noise is injected.
Give these bikes and the MOCO a bit of time to get these released in significant numbers. Time will tell.
:agree: kind of like when the 110" bolt on kits came out and the sky was falling and many said most of them would fail. I was at the MOCO dealer show in Boston and was talking with dealers all over the world and none of them have had any major issues with the 110" or 117" bolt on kits. time will tell for sure but so far we have not seen any smoking from the new motors. I think they should run Gatermen lifters and all problems would be solved. :hyst:
Quote from: Xyzzy on September 09, 2016, 05:38:41 PM
I'm doing an IB1000 this weekend to see how well it deals with sustained high-speed running.
I'm curious what you find for fuel efficiency during this run. I'd like to see what kind of MPG the new engines get when pushed at higher MPH for long periods.
I know my bikes will drop to 35 or sometimes 30 mpg when killing miles on the slab. If this new motor can pull a few tanks at interstate speeds without dropping the range below 35, that would be great news.
Quote from: biglew55 on September 10, 2016, 06:54:21 AM
Quote from: Xyzzy on September 09, 2016, 05:38:41 PM
I'm doing an IB1000 this weekend to see how well it deals with sustained high-speed running.
I'm curious what you find for fuel efficiency during this run. I'd like to see what kind of MPG the new engines get when pushed at higher MPH for long periods.
I know my bikes will drop to 35 or sometimes 30 mpg when killing miles on the slab. If this new motor can pull a few tanks at interstate speeds without dropping the range below 35, that would be great news.
I ran a tank at 75 MPH today into a moderate headwind. I got 38 miles per gallon. The rest of the trip I did my usual 65 miles per hour, when traffic was light. Those tanks averaged 49 miles per gallon. I only did 700 miles because the temperature dropped from 91 F during the day to 55 F at night!
2,100 problem-free miles so far!
I figure it is early days and clearly the M8 will need to receive ownership and miles, lots of miles, But are they vastly superior to the Rushmore series tourers or have we seen the best in the twin cam series?
Just asking!
Heres a smokey on a dealer promo youtube vid Gateway HD IL
https://youtu.be/AKyqKUermtU
How did that make it out.... :embarrassed:
A little smoke. But not too heavy. Have any of the dealers let it warm up to see if the smoke cleared?
How many times in a day do they start it rev twice and shut it down?
I myself have only witnessed 1 107 oil cooled M-8 start up. NO problem. I would wonder if the Euro 4/EPA would certify it with the new cars/trucks/bikes starting with a smoke issue?? It would fail quickly and be a smog issue would it not. A REAL smoke problem would cause a recall??
Quote from: Templer on September 11, 2016, 09:16:19 AM
I myself have only witnessed 1 107 oil cooled M-8 start up. NO problem. I would wonder if the Euro 4/EPA would certify it with the new cars/trucks/bikes starting with a smoke issue?? It would fail quickly and be a smog issue would it not. A REAL smoke problem would cause a recall??
Oil smoke on startup in any shape or form is unacceptable for a new engine unless it has issues. It will also drive up oil consumption and rapidly increase plug fouling from carbon build up. Yes it would fail.
Ron
We have done PDIs on all of the 107s we have in so far ...we do a Condition report after unpacking ( run bike till its at operating temp ) then print off a sheet of all sensor readings...the bike is then ridden for at least 10 KM to check controls...and seat brakes in ... NONE have had a smoking issue seen on that VID...YET ... The 4 Demo bikes on the lot are started every day and ridden....no smoke.......YET :wink:
Maybe Harley can get a "Zika" environment exemption.
The new 2017 abatement model...the green alternative!!! :hyst:
I went to a dealer the week after they arrived . they started a bike for me so I could see how it sounded and I noticed rite off that it smoked like a cho cho train. :nix:
Quote from: lickidysplit on September 11, 2016, 09:24:04 PM
I went to a dealer the week after they arrived . they started a bike for me so I could see how it sounded and I noticed rite off that it smoked like a cho cho train. :nix:
Engineer hat on.
HD rider hat off.
Knocking moco hat off.
A newly assembled engine you'll expect smoke, depending on the engine and lube used and gaskets used and so on, possibly asmokehouse tone of smoke.
BUT
It will burn off right quick, get it up to temperature once and all the gasket / ring / guide etc excess lube will burn off.
No engine leaves a factory nowadays, not just HD, every factory, even enfield india, without being run up and given a quick set of tests to make sure everything is ok.
That vid clip we saw, something seriously wrong, could be a trivial thing*** that is easy to fix, but NO new engine should smoke like that, even if all it does is start, get two blips for a customer and shut down.
In that clip, that oil was sitting there IN the combustion chamber waiting for the start, dunno how it got there, but it was already there before the start.
*** could be some asshole design fluke with some oil being siphoned through a defective breather on shutdown easily fixed by flipping a gasket the right way around, who knows.
I would not expect to see that amount of oil before 50k hard miles, and then it should clear as soon as the motor warms.
Smartass hat on, they accomplished 2 things with the new design: prevent oil from entering the intake via the labyrinth breathers (dropping it directly into the cylinders instead), which helps with the second goal of less heat transfer to the hard parts (by ensuring sufficient thermal barrier formation). ;)
"They all do that!"
Quote from: jbexeter on September 12, 2016, 02:39:33 AM
Quote from: lickidysplit on September 11, 2016, 09:24:04 PM
I went to a dealer the week after they arrived . they started a bike for me so I could see how it sounded and I noticed rite off that it smoked like a cho cho train. :nix:
Engineer hat on.
HD rider hat off.
Knocking moco hat off.
A newly assembled engine you'll expect smoke, depending on the engine and lube used and gaskets used and so on, possibly asmokehouse tone of smoke.
BUT
It will burn off right quick, get it up to temperature once and all the gasket / ring / guide etc excess lube will burn off.
No engine leaves a factory nowadays, not just HD, every factory, even enfield india, without being run up and given a quick set of tests to make sure everything is ok.
That vid clip we saw, something seriously wrong, could be a trivial thing*** that is easy to fix, but NO new engine should smoke like that, even if all it does is start, get two blips for a customer and shut down.
In that clip, that oil was sitting there IN the combustion chamber waiting for the start, dunno how it got there, but it was already there before the start.
*** could be some asshole design fluke with some oil being siphoned through a defective breather on shutdown easily fixed by flipping a gasket the right way around, who knows.
I would not expect to see that amount of oil before 50k hard miles, and then it should clear as soon as the motor warms.
They know but don't talk to us. :wink: Unless they are complete idiots, this has been experienced in the supposed 15 month test period. Sometimes production deadlines are more important . Issues can be dealt with later on a one on one basis, while the main cause is dealt with for future runs.
Ron
Had the chance to test ride the 114 version.. Salesman start's the bike up and its running on one cylinder.. big cloud of blue smoke smoke in the show room blows into the show room ( front doors are open) !!! :wtf: i am thinking I say nothing just look at the sales guy. He revs the "Potty mouth" out of it a few times and smiles and says here you go.. I said" it does not sound right " another smile he says thats how the new ones sound.. I tell him no thanks not looking to walk back today.. I am trying not to laugh out load as I stroll away. No way would I have ridden it . it would barley run :dgust:
BTW before I left some one did in fact take it out for a ride. No idea if he made it back I was there at least another 30 minutes and did not see it pull back up . :nix:
But I did get a new sticker for my truck if that matters . :)
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE link=topic=93640.msg1082977#msg1082977 date=1473689958
But I did get a new sticker for my truck if that matters . :)
/quote]
They do make nice stickers! :wink:
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on September 12, 2016, 07:19:18 AM
Had the chance to test ride the 114 version.. Salesman start's the bike up and its running on one cylinder.. big cloud of blue smoke smoke in the show room blows into the show room ( front doors are open) !!! :wtf:
See, I'm just some guy on the internet who has been swinging his leg over HD since the shovel days, more miles than some, less miles than some...
When you get people who live and breathe AND work commercially with big twins every day of their lives, and when those people can have / express that reaction.
As the saying goes, there is something seriously wrong in the state of denmark, even if it is only that alien body snatchers have replaced all the mechanics and sales droids in that dealership to allow that particular bike into the showroom.
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on September 12, 2016, 07:19:18 AM
Had the chance to test ride the 114 version.. Salesman start's the bike up and its running on one cylinder.. big cloud of blue smoke smoke in the show room blows into the show room ( front doors are open) !!! :wtf: i am thinking I say nothing just look at the sales guy. He revs the "Potty mouth" out of it a few times and smiles and says here you go.. I said" it does not sound right " another smile he says thats how the new ones sound.. I tell him no thanks not looking to walk back today.. I am trying not to laugh out load as I stroll away. No way would I have ridden it . it would barley run :dgust:
BTW before I left some one did in fact take it out for a ride. No idea if he made it back I was there at least another 30 minutes and did not see it pull back up . :nix:
But I did get a new sticker for my truck if that matters . :)
I take it that's a twin cooled bike, not oil cooled? If so, oil leakdown must be happening not from the oil cooled galley but from somewhere else. As for how it runs, well you being a tuner you are too fussy. :hyst: Most tolerate it and think it's normal because the sales guy says so. Yes I know, sad situation. That smoking deal reminds me of my old Ford Falcon with bad valve seals.
Ron
we just had a customer come in for a service on his 2017 FLHX and we looked for smoke and this one seems fine. we will be keeping an eye on everyone for sure.
Quote from: jbexeter on September 12, 2016, 08:42:22 AM
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on September 12, 2016, 07:19:18 AM
Had the chance to test ride the 114 version.. Salesman start's the bike up and its running on one cylinder.. big cloud of blue smoke smoke in the show room blows into the show room ( front doors are open) !!! :wtf:
See, I'm just some guy on the internet who has been swinging his leg over HD since the shovel days, more miles than some, less miles than some...
When you get people who live and breathe AND work commercially with big twins every day of their lives, and when those people can have / express that reaction.
As the saying goes, there is something seriously wrong in the state of denmark, even if it is only that alien body snatchers have replaced all the mechanics and sales droids in that dealership to allow that particular bike into the showroom.
and then allow a customer to ride off on it on a test ride :wtf:
so here is the deal ,I fired 6 brand new 2017 (6 miles on them) bikes up on the floor and did see some white/gray smoke for a brief second. then I fired up our demo with some miles on it and saw no smoke. I have a 2017 touring in for a service and it sat over night and when we fired it up it had no smoke at all.
Quote from: Tattoo on September 12, 2016, 11:49:28 AM
so here is the deal ,I fired 6 brand new 2017 (6 miles on them) bikes up on the floor and did see some white/gray smoke for a brief second. then I fired up our demo with some miles on it and saw no smoke. I have a 2017 touring in for a service and it sat over night and when we fired it up it had no smoke at all.
Will the low mile ones get test ridden?
I'm not all that surprised to see A little smoke for the first few miles. Especially if the bikes have never really gotten hot. They don't break them in at the factory, do they?
Quote from: Tattoo on September 12, 2016, 11:49:28 AM
so here is the deal ,I fired 6 brand new 2017 (6 miles on them) bikes up on the floor and did see some white/gray smoke for a brief second. then I fired up our demo with some miles on it and saw no smoke. I have a 2017 touring in for a service and it sat over night and when we fired it up it had no smoke at all.
What you're describing is not like what is in that video or what GMR described. You must have gotten Tuesday/Wednesday bikes and they got Monday morning or Friday afternoon bikes. :wink:
Im with Tattoo on this one ...just not seeing it ....not saying its not happening ( After all its on HTT Has to be True ! ) ....But just not seeing it or hearing about it from any other techs I talk to :nix:
I've seen it with my own eyes.
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Have you guys been to York during the open house? They run the bikes on a dump before they leave the factory. I don't think it's because it's a new build.
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Dyno. Darn spell checker.
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Quote from: HV on September 12, 2016, 03:47:47 PM
Im with Tattoo on this one ...just not seeing it ....not saying its not happening ( After all its on HTT Has to be True ! ) ....But just not seeing it or hearing about it from any other techs I talk to :nix:
if I see or hear anything on my end you guys will be the first to know . I just have to be careful not to get caught up in hating the MOCO,Dealers, Dealer Techs, factory parts,sales people, oh and Harley -Davidson motorcycles. Hell Im still waiting for all those "poorly designed" 110"/117" bolt on kits to fail that i read about on the internet. :wink:
Quote from: Tattoo on September 13, 2016, 03:13:18 AM
Quote from: HV on September 12, 2016, 03:47:47 PM
Im with Tattoo on this one ...just not seeing it ....not saying its not happening ( After all its on HTT Has to be True ! ) ....But just not seeing it or hearing about it from any other techs I talk to :nix:
if I see or hear anything on my end you guys will be the first to know . I just have to be careful not to get caught up in hating the MOCO,Dealers, Dealer Techs, factory parts, oh and Harley -Davidson motorcycles. Hell Im still waiting for all those "poorly designed" 110"/117" bolt on kits to fail that i read about on the internet. :wink:
I don't hate any of those things. It might be something as simple as what happened with the early 2005 engines. But it was very odd that when the sales guy started the bike in the dealership, he not only ignored the plume of blue smoke, he mumbled something about "it's new and still burning gas". There needs to be an honest technical diagnoses and a make-right.
I've also witnessed it. Two different bikes at two dealerships in Mississippi. I only noticed it when the dealers revved them when cold.
"Hell Im still waiting for all those "poorly designed" 110"/117" bolt on kits to fail that i read about on the internet. :wink:"
Amen. 3 friends with 117" drop ins and one with 110" drop in. Running great.
Quote from: Deye76 on September 13, 2016, 06:08:13 AM
"Hell Im still waiting for all those "poorly designed" 110"/117" bolt on kits to fail that i read about on the internet. :wink:"
Amen. 3 friends with 117" drop ins and one with 110" drop in. Running great.
we have over 80 sets out with only one leaky base o-ring after 11,000 miles.
Quote from: banjoman2255 on September 13, 2016, 05:57:42 AM
I've also witnessed it. Two different bikes at two dealerships in Mississippi. I only noticed it when the dealers revved them when cold.
I wish they would stop doing that! It's hard on components.
Revving a cold motor that's requesting ~10.5:1 AFR ( Stock AFR table + warm up enrichment+accelerator enrichment) WILL result in some blackish smoke!
Unseated rings will pass some oil! Break em in and see how they do.
Quote from: rigidthumper on September 13, 2016, 06:21:00 AM
Quote from: banjoman2255 on September 13, 2016, 05:57:42 AM
I've also witnessed it. Two different bikes at two dealerships in Mississippi. I only noticed it when the dealers revved them when cold.
I wish they would stop doing that! It's hard on components.
Revving a cold motor that's requesting ~10.5:1 AFR ( Stock AFR table + warm up enrichment+accelerator enrichment) WILL result in some blackish smoke!
Unseated rings will pass some oil! Break em in and see how they do.
:agree: as I stated already the 2017's that we have out with miles on them run perfect with NO smoke what's so ever during start up.
Quote from: rigidthumper on September 13, 2016, 06:21:00 AM
Quote from: banjoman2255 on September 13, 2016, 05:57:42 AM
I've also witnessed it. Two different bikes at two dealerships in Mississippi. I only noticed it when the dealers revved them when cold.
I wish they would stop doing that! It's hard on components.
Revving a cold motor that's requesting ~10.5:1 AFR ( Stock AFR table + warm up enrichment+accelerator enrichment) WILL result in some blackish smoke!
Unseated rings will pass some oil! Break em in and see how they do.
While I can't disagree with what you said, it doesn't explain the smoke in some. Those sales clowns have been doing that on all versions of HD engines with no similar complaints of smoking. Don't explain oil puddling on the piston tops of the real smokers either. That's not rings.
Ron
Where and how are the heads vented now? I hear they aren't thru the air cleaner. I assume they're still into the intake somehow to burn it. Could they possibly be vent oil/condensation pudding into intake on start up?
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Quote from: 06roadglide on September 13, 2016, 07:37:10 AM
Where and how are the heads vented now? I hear they aren't thru the air cleaner. I assume they're still into the intake somehow to burn it. Could they possibly be vent oil/condensation pudding into intake on start up?
they vent from the heads to the back of the air cleaner.
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m18/tattoo66/IMG_4591_zps9baxrjr4.jpg) (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/tattoo66/media/IMG_4591_zps9baxrjr4.jpg.html)
Quote from: Tattoo on September 13, 2016, 07:56:27 AM
Quote from: 06roadglide on September 13, 2016, 07:37:10 AM
Where and how are the heads vented now? I hear they aren't thru the air cleaner. I assume they're still into the intake somehow to burn it. Could they possibly be vent oil/condensation pudding into intake on start up?
they vent from the heads to the back of the air cleaner.
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m18/tattoo66/IMG_4591_zps9baxrjr4.jpg) (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/tattoo66/media/IMG_4591_zps9baxrjr4.jpg.html)
Thanks for the pic if how they routed vents.
That eliminates my thoughts on how the oil could be getting there besides valve seals, coolant
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I was in a local dealer today where my friends work & they told me 7 out of 10 smoked on start-up Butch
Man! I'm lovin' my '15 Limited even more than before - and I wouldn't have believed that was possible, till I started seeing posts about the defects in these new motors. :SM:
Wonder if this is gonna turn out to be yet another epic miss for the Almighty MoCo? :scratch:
Quote from: jpooch00 on September 14, 2016, 04:56:52 AM
Man! I'm lovin' my '15 Limited even more than before - and I wouldn't have believed that was possible, till I started seeing posts about the defects in these new motors. :SM:
Wonder if this is gonna turn out to be yet another epic miss for the Almighty MoCo? :scratch:
Funny.... about this time in 2013, people were saying the same thing about their '12s & '13s when the new '14 Rushmores started puking coolant....
The MoCo got a handle on that pretty quick, haven't had any issues with your '15 in that area I'd bet...
While the MoCo hasn't pleased everybody (almost impossible really) with their improvements over the years, I'm not aware of an "epic miss" .......?
:nix:
I'd have a 17 model right now if it was in the cards. Not a bit scared of the Moco not sorting out any issues. If any.
Not really sure if I'd have the new road glide tho. The new fairing just looks odd to me. Don't like the dash or the head light look
Quote from: jpooch00 on September 14, 2016, 04:56:52 AM
Man! I'm lovin' my '15 Limited even more than before - and I wouldn't have believed that was possible, till I started seeing posts about the defects in these new motors. :SM:
Wonder if this is gonna turn out to be yet another epic miss for the Almighty MoCo? :scratch:
the sky is not falling everything will be ok. :wink:
Yep, pretty sure that if there is a problem with the M8 HD will take care of it. I just don't want to be the guy with the new $30k motorcycle I can't ride.
Quote from: 06roadglide on September 14, 2016, 09:48:51 AM
Not really sure if I'd have the new road glide tho. The new fairing just looks odd to me. Don't like the dash or the head light look
The glare from the infotainment screen was the reason I test rode and eventually bought a SG. It might sound like something trivial but it bugged me a lot.
I think the RG headlamps look cool, though.
I was going to buy the H-D Daymaker for my SG but then I found that you can buy the LED from the original manufacturer (JW Speaker) for much less ($350) with a four year warranty instead of just one. The installation was a piece of cake. I had to buy H-D's plug harness ($20) but you have to do that for the Daymaker, too. H-D putting a halogen headlamp on a $24K motorcycle is baffling to me.
http://www.jwspeaker.com/products/led-headlights-model-8700-evolution-2/ (http://www.jwspeaker.com/products/led-headlights-model-8700-evolution-2/)
we got our 107 test mule today from montana. no drama with bike, it does not smoke. i told my friend to ride it like you stole it, and to lug it hard over the mountain passes. runs good need to clean and change oil, if there any in the oil bag. seems to be quite and nice ride. sbc
Quote from: PoorUB on September 14, 2016, 10:30:11 AM
Yep, pretty sure that if there is a problem with the M8 HD will take care of it.
I'm not sure I agree with that....as long as it's under warranty they will fix it....not everyone purchasing reads about potential issues on the World Wide Web and might not be on top of things before their bike takes a dump.
Most would probably agree the cam bearing issues on the 1999 TC's was a design flaw and in my view every single one should have been upgraded on HD's dime. It's one thing if an issue is a nuisance, another if it can take an engine out.
I know a few folks that have had 2 and in some cases 3 compensators replaced under warranty. Granted, these are high mileage riders and one day the repair bill will be on them. They went in with eyes wide open and bought the extended warranties with the compensators in mind.
I don't track it enough to know if HD has a reliable compensator for late models because I don't have a late model with the bum compensators.
Did 4 more today ( PDI ) test rode looked for smoke on initial start up...etc....NONE ..... :nix:
Quote from: vafatboy1 on September 14, 2016, 02:44:13 PM
Quote from: PoorUB on September 14, 2016, 10:30:11 AM
Yep, pretty sure that if there is a problem with the M8 HD will take care of it.
I'm not sure I agree with that....as long as it's under warranty they will fix it....not everyone purchasing reads about potential issues on the World Wide Web and might not be on top of things before their bike takes a dump.
Most would probably agree the cam bearing issues on the 1999 TC's was a design flaw and in my view every single one should have been upgraded on HD's dime. It's one thing if an issue is a nuisance, another if it can take an engine out.
I know a few folks that have had 2 and in some cases 3 compensators replaced under warranty. Granted, these are high mileage riders and one day the repair bill will be on them. They went in with eyes wide open and bought the extended warranties with the compensators in mind.
I don't track it enough to know if HD has a reliable compensator for late models because I don't have a late model with the bum compensators.
I just took my 16 RGS in today. Compensator was knocking so loud it sounded like a rod bearing or something. We change them out all the time at the shop. Figured today, it was Harley's time to pay. It was really bad and while I was there they changed out my voltmeter gauge. It was jumping from 14.1 to 14.6 volts back and forth quickly. I had already ridden it for a test ride with a volt meter hooked up. Volt meter showed the regulator and stator were working great. Spent 4 hours at the dealer waiting on it and left with a fixed bike. I thought later, I should have just bought one and do it myself. Could have been making money while they did it plus the 1 1/2 hour drive. Well, sometimes you just got to bite the bullet and let them cover it and sit back.
It could just be excessive build-up lube if not an actual defect...TBD. Not hard to pull a couple outside spark plugs at PDI and look for oil on them or the piston tops...through the plug holes or send a borescope in if it's a smoker. Might check CCP when PDI'd to see if it markedly climbs with a first ride?
Would setup techs have the authority to slow the sales train if needed for a smoker?
I've only seen the video, and it didn't smoke until the throttle was blipped. All the descriptions I've read, so far, refer to the throttle blip on a cold engine being when the smoke is observed. Also, the Harley techs who have been following this say that they don't see it on bikes that have been ridden enough for breakin to have taken place.
I would think that if all the smoking was caused by oil on top of the pistons, then it would not wait to smoke until the throttle was blipped. It would puff smoke immediately upon startup including at idle.
I'm more inclined to believe that during break-in of the rings, there might be a bit more blow-by into the crankcase and therefore a bit more oil in the ventilation system. With some condensation occurring when the engine cools so that some oil might be deposited at the front of the throttle body. When the throttle is blipped on cold startup, it might be increasing the flow in the throttle body or ventilation system to pick up the condensation and suck it into the combustion chamber until it dries out after a couple of blips and/or things heat up. After breaking in the rings this effect would be reduced.
Modern rings don't typically require a lot of breaking in, but it seems to me it might be worthwhile speculation.
OK...I've put on my flame retardant suit...
The thing is that when I build a brand new engine in my garage, it never smokes. The new Road King I saw with my own eyes start up at the dealer blew out smoke right from the start without any throttle.
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In Revzilla's review of the M8 it's mentioned that HD uses a new piston ring design that has lower tension and offers lower friction (?). Maybe some the new rings fail to seat as quick as others? That's why I asked above if CCP increases and smoking decreases after a good initial run.
"Another bit of nifty tech in play is the use of low-tension piston rings - fairly sophisticated technology Harley has employed. Low-tension rings exert less pressure against cylinder walls than standard rings, and they're a bit thinner, too. This reduction in friction reduces a significant amount of drag on the motor"
That would account for the compression rings, but not the oil control ring, which will have a constant force against the cylinder walls irrespecting of combustion pressures....
visible blue smoke is oil burning, no new engine should burn oil under any circumstances *except* an initial assembly oil burn off, which would be burnt off when every engine is started and run up at the factory test stage.
we have smoke, but no gun to point at.
Quote from: Bike31 on September 20, 2016, 02:22:58 PM
In Revzilla's review of the M8 it's mentioned that HD uses a new piston ring design that has lower tension and offers lower friction (?). Maybe some the new rings fail to seat as quick as others? That's why I asked above if CCP increases and smoking decreases after a good initial run.
"Another bit of nifty tech in play is the use of low-tension piston rings - fairly sophisticated technology Harley has employed. Low-tension rings exert less pressure against cylinder walls than standard rings, and they're a bit thinner, too. This reduction in friction reduces a significant amount of drag on the motor"
Oh. Didn't know that about the new rings.
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Not sure what the hell rings have to do with startup smoke. Last I looked oil don't travel upwards to the top of the piston.
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on September 20, 2016, 02:46:50 PM
Not sure what the hell rings have to do with startup smoke. Last I looked oil don't travel upwards to the top of the piston.
Ron
it does in a runaway diesel, if you get dilution (diesel fuel getting into the sump) the level goes up and sooner or later it will start passing the rings and then you have a runaway...
.... so maybe these new motors with skinny rings and new oil bags etc are sumping? Clears up once the motor has run a minute or two?
What are the chances the bike in the video was uncrated along with whatever else that entails, then pushed out into the parking lot to create the video without ever having been started up since it was crated? I'm thinking it would've likely been started at least once already since delivered, and probably even ridden. If the factory were fogging the cylinders prior to delivery, wouldn't every bike exhibit some smoke like that?
If it ain't transport-related then I can't see it being either a standard phenomenon or what the EPA had in mind when it issued certification.
we are doing a M8 114" upgrade tomorrow on a bike with 6 miles and We will be inspecting the cylinders and pistons. we also have several M8 bikes out the door with no "smoking" issues whats so ever and positive feedback from the customers.
The parts manager and owner of athe local dealership(s) dropped a bike of to be tuned yesterday, they said a pretty good percentage of the ones they have smoke on start up. I've only seen one started up in person and I didn't notice any smoking.
Tattoo, are you using the street tuner on 114 job?
Leaving in a hour for BBQ rally and there is a 17 in the group. Its been a little smoky since he bought it but he has no real miles on it . So this trip should prove if it will seal up or not. He will have over 2000 miles on it after the trip and the riding we have planned .
Quote from: harleytuner on September 21, 2016, 04:14:48 AM
Tattoo, are you using the street tuner on 114 job?
Yes we are...
Quote from: Tattoo on September 21, 2016, 04:19:15 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on September 21, 2016, 04:14:48 AM
Tattoo, are you using the street tuner on 114 job?
Yes we are...
Good deal. I'm eagerly awaiting the results of this. The local dealer I tune for just chopped the neck, raked, big wheeled, New body work, and 114 stage III kit in one, ill be getting it to tune then it'll go on their floor for sale. Still trying to decide over the Street tuner or TTS.
Quote from: jbexeter on September 20, 2016, 03:32:38 PM
Quote from: rbabos on September 20, 2016, 02:46:50 PM
Not sure what the hell rings have to do with startup smoke. Last I looked oil don't travel upwards to the top of the piston.
Ron
it does in a runaway diesel, if you get dilution (diesel fuel getting into the sump) the level goes up and sooner or later it will start passing the rings and then you have a runaway...
.... so maybe these new motors with skinny rings and new oil bags etc are sumping? Clears up once the motor has run a minute or two?
Over run diesel possible I guess but the only engine with full blown startup smoke I've dealt with is a radial aircraft engine for obvious reasons on the lower cyls. Doubt the HD bagger engine can be effected that way. Even softails, even over long storage and the above engine tank bleeds down and fills the sump don't smoke on startup. Not that I've seen anyway. Startup smoke is usually 99% from oil from top working into the chamber when sitting. This is not assembly lube issue either and I doubt HD goes to much lengths using it plus all engines are run prior to shipping. Will be interesting to see what the cause is with the odd one that does a smoke start.
Ron
Quote from: Tattoo on September 21, 2016, 04:03:42 AM
we are doing a M8 114" upgrade tomorrow on a bike with 6 miles and We will be inspecting the cylinders and pistons. we also have several M8 bikes out the door with no "smoking" issues whats so ever and positive feedback from the customers.
Hello Tattoo,
Could you measure the 107 and 114 cylinder liner thickness and the spigot hole in the case?
Thanks,
Will do...
Three days and 280 miles no smoke on my new RG? I always let my bike warm up before I walk the throttle. That's been the case since I had British bikes in the 70s and Iron head/ Evo/ Twin cam. I don't baby my motorcycles but a short idle warm up is a good practice IMHO. I'm really liking my M ATE. I told my neighbor it's a bump head.
Do they really start the bikes at the factory?
Engineers at the engine assembly plant say there's been a change in procedure. They spin each engine cold without actually starting, saving a ton of gasoline. Perhaps a squirt of oil in the cylinders as part of this method?
Does the Owners Manual mention running in?
Quote from: -deuced- on September 21, 2016, 07:01:34 PM
Do they really start the bikes at the factory?
Engineers at the engine assembly plant say there's been a change in procedure. They spin each engine cold without actually starting, saving a ton of gasoline. Perhaps a squirt of oil in the cylinders as part of this method?
Does the Owners Manual mention running in?
Oh. Didn't know they stopped doing that.
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Quote from: Rokinrider on September 21, 2016, 05:11:42 PM
Three days and 280 miles no smoke on my new RG? I always let my bike warm up before I walk the throttle. That's been the case since I had British bikes in the 70s and Iron head/ Evo/ Twin cam. I don't baby my motorcycles but a short idle warm up is a good practice IMHO.
I take off within 10-15 seconds after starting the bike, no matter what the conditions are. Any warm up is just wasting gas, IMO.
I have, as of tonight, 4,000 miles on my M8 and no smoking yet!
Quote from: les on September 21, 2016, 07:31:39 PM
Quote from: -deuced- on September 21, 2016, 07:01:34 PM
Do they really start the bikes at the factory?
Engineers at the engine assembly plant say there's been a change in procedure. They spin each engine cold without actually starting, saving a ton of gasoline. Perhaps a squirt of oil in the cylinders as part of this method?
Does the Owners Manual mention running in?
Oh. Didn't know they stopped doing that.
I'm wondering why they'd tell us that if they still fired up the completed bike at the end of the line.
I've only seen that one bike in the vid on here blow a puff. Read a few hearsay posts. Read a lot more first hand posts that say no smoke.
Quote from: -deuced- on September 21, 2016, 09:10:15 PM
Quote from: les on September 21, 2016, 07:31:39 PM
Quote from: -deuced- on September 21, 2016, 07:01:34 PM
Do they really start the bikes at the factory?
Engineers at the engine assembly plant say there's been a change in procedure. They spin each engine cold without actually starting, saving a ton of gasoline. Perhaps a squirt of oil in the cylinders as part of this method?
Does the Owners Manual mention running in?
Oh. Didn't know they stopped doing that.
I'm wondering why they'd tell us that if they still fired up the completed bike at the end of the line.
I've only seen that one bike in the vid on here blow a puff. Read a few hearsay posts. Read a lot more first hand posts that say no smoke.
But you don't see any twin cams, ever, blow smoke.
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I remember back on the show "how it's made" they had the twin cam engine. They ran the engine on something before it was installed in bike. It was a bit odd to me because it had no exhaust so I don't believe it was running on its own but was spinning by a electric motor maybe simulating running? I'm not really sure.
I'm sure some of you seen that video.
https://youtu.be/2S8nPc9jWko
Quote from: Boost on September 21, 2016, 08:49:26 AM
Quote from: Tattoo on September 21, 2016, 04:03:42 AM
we are doing a M8 114" upgrade tomorrow on a bike with 6 miles and We will be inspecting the cylinders and pistons. we also have several M8 bikes out the door with no "smoking" issues whats so ever and positive feedback from the customers.
Hello Tattoo,
Could you measure the 107 and 114 cylinder liner thickness and the spigot hole in the case?
Thanks,
.139"
Quote from: harleytuner on September 21, 2016, 04:33:33 AM
Good deal. I'm eagerly awaiting the results of this. The local dealer I tune for just chopped the neck, raked, big wheeled, New body work, and 114 stage III kit in one, ill be getting it to tune then it'll go on their floor for sale. Still trying to decide over the Street tuner or TTS.
Wow! So they ruined a brand new bike???
Quote from: mp on September 22, 2016, 06:15:33 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on September 21, 2016, 04:33:33 AM
Good deal. I'm eagerly awaiting the results of this. The local dealer I tune for just chopped the neck, raked, big wheeled, New body work, and 114 stage III kit in one, ill be getting it to tune then it'll go on their floor for sale. Still trying to decide over the Street tuner or TTS.
Wow! So they ruined a brand new bike???
:hyst: That was my exact thought when I read that.
Quote from: mp on September 22, 2016, 06:15:33 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on September 21, 2016, 04:33:33 AM
Good deal. I'm eagerly awaiting the results of this. The local dealer I tune for just chopped the neck, raked, big wheeled, New body work, and 114 stage III kit in one, ill be getting it to tune then it'll go on their floor for sale. Still trying to decide over the Street tuner or TTS.
Wow! So they ruined a brand new bike???
Pretty much. I hate working on them and don't care at all for the look, but it pays. Apparently people like them because they sell them about as fast as they can build them.
Here's a 2016 I just tuned for them, 135" Jim's crate in this one.[attach=0]
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m18/tattoo66/IMG_4616_zpsa8ldatxm.jpg) (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/tattoo66/media/IMG_4616_zpsa8ldatxm.jpg.html)
Quote from: Tattoo on September 22, 2016, 08:33:59 AM
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m18/tattoo66/IMG_4616_zpsa8ldatxm.jpg) (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/tattoo66/media/IMG_4616_zpsa8ldatxm.jpg.html)
Base gasket now and no o ring. I didn't know that. Thanks for the picture
our demo is doing that, I'd be interested in the last 6 of the vin's of the other ones that are doing it.. the other 6 we have sold have no issues,,
Quote from: harleytuner on September 22, 2016, 07:10:05 AM
Quote from: mp on September 22, 2016, 06:15:33 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on September 21, 2016, 04:33:33 AM
Good deal. I'm eagerly awaiting the results of this. The local dealer I tune for just chopped the neck, raked, big wheeled, New body work, and 114 stage III kit in one, ill be getting it to tune then it'll go on their floor for sale. Still trying to decide over the Street tuner or TTS.
Wow! So they ruined a brand new bike???
Pretty much. I hate working on them and don't care at all for the look, but it pays. Apparently people like them because they sell them about as fast as they can build them.
Off topic, but I'm curious, what's the resale like on something like that a couple years down the road?
Thanks,
Rick
Quote from: Eglider05 on September 22, 2016, 09:11:15 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on September 22, 2016, 07:10:05 AM
Quote from: mp on September 22, 2016, 06:15:33 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on September 21, 2016, 04:33:33 AM
Good deal. I'm eagerly awaiting the results of this. The local dealer I tune for just chopped the neck, raked, big wheeled, New body work, and 114 stage III kit in one, ill be getting it to tune then it'll go on their floor for sale. Still trying to decide over the Street tuner or TTS.
Wow! So they ruined a brand new bike???
Pretty much. I hate working on them and don't care at all for the look, but it pays. Apparently people like them because they sell them about as fast as they can build them.
Off topic, but I'm curious, what's the resale like on something like that a couple years down the road?
Thanks,
Rick
The same as a stock one the same age if imagine. It's only worth what the bank will lend lol.
Sticker on this one is around 70k
Quote from: Tattoo on September 22, 2016, 05:43:26 AM
Quote from: Boost on September 21, 2016, 08:49:26 AM
Quote from: Tattoo on September 21, 2016, 04:03:42 AM
we are doing a M8 114" upgrade tomorrow on a bike with 6 miles and We will be inspecting the cylinders and pistons. we also have several M8 bikes out the door with no "smoking" issues whats so ever and positive feedback from the customers.
Hello Tattoo,
Could you measure the 107 and 114 cylinder liner thickness and the spigot hole in the case?
Thanks,
.139"
Is that for the 107 cylinder or the 114 cylinder or both, and where you able to get the diameter for the spigot hole in the engine cases?
Thanks
Quote from: tomcat64 on September 22, 2016, 08:51:57 AM
our demo is doing that, I'd be interested in the last 6 of the vin's of the other ones that are doing it.. the other 6 we have sold have no issues,,
Are there plans to determine why? If so please share the results.
Quote from: Boost on September 22, 2016, 10:50:44 AM
Quote from: Tattoo on September 22, 2016, 05:43:26 AM
Quote from: Boost on September 21, 2016, 08:49:26 AM
Quote from: Tattoo on September 21, 2016, 04:03:42 AM
we are doing a M8 114" upgrade tomorrow on a bike with 6 miles and We will be inspecting the cylinders and pistons. we also have several M8 bikes out the door with no "smoking" issues whats so ever and positive feedback from the customers.
Hello Tattoo,
Could you measure the 107 and 114 cylinder liner thickness and the spigot hole in the case?
Thanks,
.139"
Is that for the 107 cylinder or the 114 cylinder or both, and where you able to get the diameter for the spigot hole in the engine cases?
Thanks
107" .178 diameter is .4.436 (approximately)
Quote:
107" .178 diameter is .4.436 (approximately)
So the 114 stage IV kit is most likely going to be 120 C.I. (4.125'' bore) or 124 C.I (4.1875) bore?
Quote from: -deuced- on September 21, 2016, 07:01:34 PM
Do they really start the bikes at the factory?
Engineers at the engine assembly plant say there's been a change in procedure. They spin each engine cold without actually starting, saving a ton of gasoline. Perhaps a squirt of oil in the cylinders as part of this method?
Does the Owners Manual mention running in?
They used to ride each bike on rollers at the York plant running it up to about 60 mph checking the bike's operation. I don't know if they still do, but I'll find out tomorrow. I'm going to the open house and taking the plant tour.
Quote from: Schex3x on September 08, 2016, 06:33:09 PM
I was in Smoky Mt Harley in Aug. right after the bikes were released,
asked a salesperson to fire one up, she did and it blew a good bit of smoke,
she shut it off right quick,
thought to myself, whoa, that's not good.
I haven' read all 5 pages of this thread, but I had the same experience. Had a salesman start one of their new M8 (107") bikes for me & the thing blew white smoke. He let it idle a few secs & then I blipped the throttle a bit & it blew another puff of smoke. Wasn't too impressed to say the least.
I didn't see any "smokers" at the demo rides at York today. And they do still run every bike on the rollers up to highway speed.
So every bike gets run at the factory. However, I'm not sure the tester would notice any smoke if any since the exhaust fan would likely suck it right out before the tester could notice it.
Quote from: FLHRI_2004 on September 23, 2016, 05:04:00 PM
I didn't see any "smokers" at the demo rides at York today. And they do still run every bike on the rollers up to highway speed.
So every bike gets run at the factory. However, I'm not sure the tester would notice any smoke if any since the exhaust fan would likely suck it right out before the tester could notice it.
Thanks for clarifying that. Guess that explains the mileage on the odometer when they arrive at the dealer.
Mine does not smoke yet, tho I have only 500 miles
I like the shifting compared to my 15, it clicks like a Honda
I have a HD tech friend that says some do and some dont
If any continue to smoke I doubt their EPA/CARB cert is valid. That might be an unknown free Stage V or greater mod from HD.
If they shift like a Honda that would indicate an improvement...the M8 I rod shifted smoothly like most JA motorcycles I've owned.
Quote from: FLHRI_2004 on September 23, 2016, 05:04:00 PM
I didn't see any "smokers" at the demo rides at York today. And they do still run every bike on the rollers up to highway speed.
So every bike gets run at the factory. However, I'm not sure the tester would notice any smoke if any since the exhaust fan would likely suck it right out before the tester could notice it.
See posting #59 and #60.
No, the bikes may or may not get run @ the factory, they do not hot test the engines any more they spin them up with an electrical motor and check oil pressure and for leaks, if it passes in the bike it goes if not it gets scrapped
Maybe they should leave out the side plugs and see if oil flies out the holes?
BMW has done similar pre-installation testing for years. See 06:30 on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LD6kGafB2to (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LD6kGafB2to)
But they also test run the final product: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrWA9vrxhyE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrWA9vrxhyE)
They still have dealer PDI inspections don't they? :nix:
Quote from: HD Street Performance on September 25, 2016, 09:02:53 AM
They still have dealer PDI inspections don't they? :nix:
yes and HD has been notified on what we have seen on the few with only 6 miles on them. we have sold several and have a demo with miles on them with no issues at all.
So my point is any of these issues would be handled at the dealer level.
My goodness lets' let the population increase before condemning them.
..." yes and HD has been notified on what we have seen on the few with only 6 miles on them. we have sold several and have a demo with miles on them with no issues at all."
Has there been any correlation between S/N, production date, and issues?
Well due to a issue on one of the bikes in the group our trip was shorter than we thought and I was working in a parking lot fixing a bike . However it did not smoke under normal riding . But we got caught in traffic a few times and it would just puff blue smoke. The trip was right at 1200 miles. The bike used 1.5 qts of oil on the trip . He is planning on taking it back this week. It ran well no issues there but when he would decell it would would smoke and idle in idle traffic it was huffing pretty good . Overall that was the only issue it ran great got good MPG , seemed to be hotter than any stage 1 bike but it was 100% stock
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on September 26, 2016, 07:26:40 AM
Well due to a issue on one of the bikes in the group our trip was shorter than we thought and I was working in a parking lot fixing a bike . However it did not smoke under normal riding . But we got caught in traffic a few times and it would just puff blue smoke. The trip was right at 1200 miles. The bike used 1.5 qts of oil on the trip . He is planning on taking it back this week. It ran well no issues there but when he would decell it would would smoke and idle in idle traffic it was huffing pretty good . Overall that was the only issue it ran great got good MPG , seemed to be hotter than any stage 1 bike but it was 100% stock
Well we both know what possible sources that's from. Sure as hell isn't breakin or rings. :wink: Again, I ask you, was this an oil cooled version or twin cooled?
Ron
NON water cooled model sorry I missed that. I will say that they both are large people and the bike did very well in the mountains and he was happy, with that.
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on September 26, 2016, 09:03:15 AM
NON water cooled model sorry I missed that. I will say that they both are large people and the bike did very well in the mountains and he was happy, with that.
PM sent.
Ron
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on September 26, 2016, 07:26:40 AM
The trip was right at 1200 miles. The bike used 1.5 qts of oil on the trip .
Overall that was the only issue it ran great got good MPG
3 pints of oil in 1200 miles is a pint every 400 or an ounce every 25 miles.
By any measure that is a "worn out and needs an immediate total rebuild" sort of consumption for any motorcycle engine
Quote from: jbexeter on September 26, 2016, 09:32:31 AM
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on September 26, 2016, 07:26:40 AM
The trip was right at 1200 miles. The bike used 1.5 qts of oil on the trip .
Overall that was the only issue it ran great got good MPG
3 pints of oil in 1200 miles is a pint every 400 or an ounce every 25 miles.
By any measure that is a "worn out and needs an immediate total rebuild" sort of consumption for any motorcycle engine
More like a repair. In this case not worn out but a defective component(s).
Ron
Based on what ??? I recall reading a letter that was sent to some one on here that was from the Moco. As they where dealing with a 1 qt to 1000 oil usage .. In a nutshell no problem found normal usage. :nix: :nix: I do not disagree and I am sure that it will get worked out. My 124 used less than 2 dots of oil on the trip. Sitting in stop and go traffic for 20-3- minutes several times :emoGroan: It was no fun and my bike was cooking hot.
But is there anything in writing that covers what normal usage is for a harley??
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on September 26, 2016, 11:06:50 AM
But is there anything in writing that covers what normal usage is for a harley??
I believe the weasel word is "excessive"...
Euro 6 emission limits (petrol):
CO - 1.0 g/km
HC - 0.10 g/km
NOx - 0.06 g/km
PM - 0.005 g/km (Direct Injection only)
PM - 6.0x10 ^11/km (Direct Injection only)
Euro 6 emission limits (diesel):
CO - 0.50 g/km
HC+ NOx - 0.17 g/km
NOx - 0.08 g/km
PM - 0.005 g/km
PM - 6.0x10 ^11/km
oil consumption at that level on a motorcycle is pretty much a guaranteed emissions fail.
I had an '04 883 Sportster that used a quart of oil every 900 miles (brand new bike). The dealer called Harley to get it repaired under warranty. Harley said that a quart every 900 miles was within normal limits. It took months of calling by both the dealer and myself before Harley finally relented and agreed to pay for the repair, two weeks before my warranty was to expire!
Good on you :chop:
They tried something like that on me when my Streetbob blew up
Wanted the dealer to reuse my heads and crank sensor HAAAAA
Hmmmm. Sounds just like the 05 valve seals issue.
Quote from: Bike31 on September 25, 2016, 11:29:31 AM
Has there been any correlation between S/N, production date, and issues?
Does H-D start with "600001" for the last part of the VIN each model year?
(My SG is "601078".)
Quote from: jbexeter on September 26, 2016, 12:25:55 PM
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on September 26, 2016, 11:06:50 AM
But is there anything in writing that covers what normal usage is for a harley??
I believe the weasel word is "excessive"...
Euro 6 emission limits (petrol):
CO - 1.0 g/km
HC - 0.10 g/km
NOx - 0.06 g/km
PM - 0.005 g/km (Direct Injection only)
PM - 6.0x10 ^11/km (Direct Injection only)
Euro 6 emission limits (diesel):
CO - 0.50 g/km
HC+ NOx - 0.17 g/km
NOx - 0.08 g/km
PM - 0.005 g/km
PM - 6.0x10 ^11/km
oil consumption at that level on a motorcycle is pretty much a guaranteed emissions fail.
Back in the late 90's early 2000's VW had serious oil consumption problems on diesels to the point new vehicles had stickers telling you to check oil level every time you put fuel in it.
HOG Magazine, volume 37, 2016, page 35
"27 ROLL TEST Quality inspection is a constant process at York, but our Milwaukee-Eight powered Street Glide Special must pass a final exam - the roll test. After plugging in a fuel line and electrical harness, the technician flashed the ECM, starts the bike, and follows a standardized sequence: a 1.5 mile "ride" on rollers, reaching highway speeds and testing the bike's functions, including shifting, braking, lights, and even cruise control."
Quote from: Xyzzy on September 26, 2016, 07:47:32 PM
Quote from: Bike31 on September 25, 2016, 11:29:31 AM
Has there been any correlation between S/N, production date, and issues?
Does H-D start with "600001" for the last part of the VIN each model year?
(My SG is "601078".)
Good question that I don't know the answer to. Might be one for the sales folks here that deal with this daily.
Quote from: les on September 27, 2016, 03:08:48 PM
HOG Magazine, volume 37, 2016, page 35
"27 ROLL TEST Quality inspection is a constant process at York, but our Milwaukee-Eight powered Street Glide Special must pass a final exam - the roll test. After plugging in a fuel line and electrical harness, the technician flashed the ECM, starts the bike, and follows a standardized sequence: a 1.5 mile "ride" on rollers, reaching highway speeds and testing the bike's functions, including shifting, braking, lights, and even cruise control."
In 2016 things being what they are, I suspect they also connect well fitting extraction hoses to the exhaust pipes before starting the engine, so the "technician" wouldn't see anything even if it was rolling coal cummins style....
Quote from: jbexeter on September 27, 2016, 04:51:18 PM
Quote from: les on September 27, 2016, 03:08:48 PM
HOG Magazine, volume 37, 2016, page 35
"27 ROLL TEST Quality inspection is a constant process at York, but our Milwaukee-Eight powered Street Glide Special must pass a final exam - the roll test. After plugging in a fuel line and electrical harness, the technician flashed the ECM, starts the bike, and follows a standardized sequence: a 1.5 mile "ride" on rollers, reaching highway speeds and testing the bike's functions, including shifting, braking, lights, and even cruise control."
In 2016 things being what they are, I suspect they also connect well fitting extraction hoses to the exhaust pipes before starting the engine, so the "technician" wouldn't see anything even if it was rolling coal cummins style....
Exactly. What I saw years ago apparently is still going on at York. Above is material evidence of that.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I wonder if they let it get warmed up first before reaching "highway speed"
More from HOG magazine:
12 COLD TEST
In the cold-test cell, every complete Milwaukee-Eight engine is spun by an electric motor at up to 1,600 rpm. Dozens of sensors placed on the engine record 250 data points, from oil pressure to the sound of the valve train. After passing the cold test, engines receive their second set of spark plugs and are ready for shipping.
Quote from: Tsani on September 26, 2016, 06:11:15 PM
Hmmmm. Sounds just like the 05 valve seals issue.
What I was thinking.
By now HD knows the source(s). Wonder when it'll be made available to the rest of us?
Quote from: Bike31 on September 27, 2016, 07:44:49 PM
By now HD knows the source(s). Wonder when it'll be made available to the rest of us?
I'd imagine they'll come up with a fix, get parts to the dealerships, set up a time code and put out a service bulletin.
It sounds to me that Harley just designed the motor, slapped it together with the "It aughta work" mindset, then figured if somethings wrong with it the buyers will let us know about it. All with a new and improved price attached to it.,,,
Quote from: jbexeter on September 09, 2016, 04:33:14 AM
Traditionally we'd say there are only two ways for oil to get into the combustion chamber, up past the rings or down past the guides.... with these new heads engines we have two new additional possibilities, leaking across the head gaskets (unlikely as the running compression > oil system pressure) or "something else"
"something else" could be all sorts of things from fit & finish tolerances to excess porosity in metal parts.
The guy I mentioned previously ex salesman for a major London HD dealer (no names and no pack drill) says they have had to M8's in for repair, he's out of the loop and nobody is saying anything details wise, but he was told in both cases the used parts were DHL overnight to the mothership. He *thinks* it was oil pumps.
Has to be said, any new engine / product line, YOU'RE GONNA GET FAILURES, you're always a bit of a beta tester, and hell it's under warranty and you'll get a loaner, it would be incredibly unusual if there were NOT failures, so it's a real stretch to go from the odd HEARSAY (such as I just posted) story to the sky is falling.
The reality is even if the M8 engine did have major issues, HD either does sufficient factory recalls to make it all good, or HD ceases trading, and I defy you to name a vehicle manufacturer that does not have regular major recalls.
If you were a shareholder of HD such a scenario as a "bad motor that needs fixin'" should worry you.
If you're an owner, not so much, the factory has your back.
Line up the new model range by kerb weight, which ones have the new M8? All the heaviest ones.
Sure, also happens to be the top of line expensive ones, but HD didn't "baby" the new motor, they put it in the bikes most likely to do long hard miles... think on that.
Could also be *nothing* wrong with the new motor design, *unless* you put a production line worker who has been building twinkies for 20 years on it, and he does "procedure 127" from muscle memory and not the new way for the new motor...
Look at the new Samsung Note 7 with the battery recall, all that changed was a supplier going from prototyping production volumes on one assembly line to production volume production on other lines, with my old Note 4, no biggie, post out a new battery to everyone who bought a Note 4, user pops the case and swaps the battery, job done..... "minor" design change to the Note 7 to make the battery integral and lo and behold you're looking at a recall that will cost Samsung a billion... but they *have* to do it, and everyone who bought a Note 7 will end up with a working Note 7.
(unless they jump ship, no longer trusting Samsung, and land in exactly the same place with a different brand and a new product design)
New twinkie breakout bought in 2016 should be the best most bugs ironed out twinkie of all time.
In 20 years the M8 will be in the same place, or HD will be history like Excelsior.
Comforting words for new owners but I can't afford new and will probably keep away from used examples of these when/if the time comes.
Harley has plan. i was told they built 200 of these for the alarmist on these forums like moon eyes and the such. the real reason was to slow sales down on the 2017, they want there dealers to get rid of the 2014, 2015, 2016 bikes that are taking up space on the show room floor. the other reason is since there service departments are so slow they can up sell customers to purchase a 114 kits. the serial number on these engines end with an S which means it a smoker. sbc
Quote from: Big Cahuna on September 28, 2016, 04:28:41 AM
It sounds to me that Harley just designed the motor, slapped it together with the "It aughta work" mindset, then figured if somethings wrong with it the buyers will let us know about it. All with a new and improved price attached to it.,,,
Harley starting working on the M8 in 2014 and the price is not that much more than a 2016 of the same model.
Quote from: Tattoo on September 28, 2016, 07:42:46 AM
Quote from: Big Cahuna on September 28, 2016, 04:28:41 AM
It sounds to me that Harley just designed the motor, slapped it together with the "It aughta work" mindset, then figured if somethings wrong with it the buyers will let us know about it. All with a new and improved price attached to it.,,,
Harley starting working on the M8 in 2014 and the price is not that much more than a 2016 of the same model.
Tattoo, you are giving him facts! Shame on you! By now you ought to know that Harley-haters hate facts!
Quote from: Eccool on September 28, 2016, 09:18:59 AM
Quote from: Tattoo on September 28, 2016, 07:42:46 AM
Quote from: Big Cahuna on September 28, 2016, 04:28:41 AM
It sounds to me that Harley just designed the motor, slapped it together with the "It aughta work" mindset, then figured if somethings wrong with it the buyers will let us know about it. All with a new and improved price attached to it.,,,
Harley starting working on the M8 in 2014 and the price is not that much more than a 2016 of the same model.
Tattoo, you are giving him facts! Shame on you! By now you ought to know that Harley-haters hate facts!
2016 FLHX MSRP $20,899 2017 FLHX MSRP $20,999 It is truly disturbing and amusing at the same time to read some of non factual bashing you read on the internet, it makes me wonder why some people even own a HD if they suck that bad. we all know there are other options out there but that would mean you would have to change your dogs name and peel all those stickers off your truck and find a metric biker bar to take your selfies to post on Facebook. :wink:
Quote from: Tattoo on September 28, 2016, 09:56:21 AM
Quote from: Eccool on September 28, 2016, 09:18:59 AM
Quote from: Tattoo on September 28, 2016, 07:42:46 AM
Quote from: Big Cahuna on September 28, 2016, 04:28:41 AM
It sounds to me that Harley just designed the motor, slapped it together with the "It aughta work" mindset, then figured if somethings wrong with it the buyers will let us know about it. All with a new and improved price attached to it.,,,
Harley starting working on the M8 in 2014 and the price is not that much more than a 2016 of the same model.
Tattoo, you are giving him facts! Shame on you! By now you ought to know that Harley-haters hate facts!
2016 FLHX MSRP $20,899 2017 FLHX MSRP $20,999 It is truly disturbing and amusing at the same time to read some of non factual bashing you read on the internet, it makes me wonder why some people even own a HD if they suck that bad. we all know there are other options out there but that would mean you would have to change your dogs name and peel all those stickers off your truck and find a metric biker bar to take your selfies to post on Facebook. :wink:
It's a simple answer. Having an H-D is stupid and impractical. But it's the only bike that gives us a stiffy. Which trumps all other reasons.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
We owners can pee into the wind all we want about problems with our motorcycles, but the real hurt ultimately comes home to the dealers. They're in business to sell and service, get through the day, and hopefully earn a profit and make payroll.
Having to deal with warranty and unexpected repairs affects them as much or more than us. They're the ones HD listens to...or at least that's how it should work. Unless they hold HD's feet to the fire first it'll not improve.
Quote from: Bike31 on September 28, 2016, 10:28:20 AM
We owners can pee into the wind all we want about problems with our motorcycles, but the real hurt ultimately comes home to the dealers. They're in business to sell and service, get through the day, and hopefully earn a profit and make payroll.
Having to deal with warranty and unexpected repairs affects them as much or more than us. They're the ones HD listens to...or at least that's how it should work. Unless they hold HD's feet to the fire first it'll not improve.
I have been dealing with both sides for over 20 years now and still amazes me how bad something can get blown out proportion on the internet. I lost faith when everybody started bashing the new "bolt on" kits from HD before they had all the facts and a year later there are 1000's of them on the road with no issues and they are on stock cranks. I did read on the internet that Gaterman lifters are the best and everybody should run them. :up:
Quote from: Tattoo on September 28, 2016, 09:56:21 AM
we all know there are other options out there but that would mean you would have to change your dogs name and peel all those stickers off your truck and find a metric biker bar to take your selfies to post on Facebook. :wink:
And what about all of those T-shirts?
Quote from: Eglider05 on September 28, 2016, 11:28:41 AM
Quote from: Tattoo on September 28, 2016, 09:56:21 AM
we all know there are other options out there but that would mean you would have to change your dogs name and peel all those stickers off your truck and find a metric biker bar to take your selfies to post on Facebook. :wink:
And what about all of those T-shirts?
you mean the one's with the sleeves cut off? :hyst:
Quote from: Tattoo on September 28, 2016, 11:08:14 AM
Quote from: Bike31 on September 28, 2016, 10:28:20 AM
We owners can pee into the wind all we want about problems with our motorcycles, but the real hurt ultimately comes home to the dealers. They're in business to sell and service, get through the day, and hopefully earn a profit and make payroll.
Having to deal with warranty and unexpected repairs affects them as much or more than us. They're the ones HD listens to...or at least that's how it should work. Unless they hold HD's feet to the fire first it'll not improve.
I have been dealing with both sides for over 20 years now and still amazes me how bad something can get blown out proportion on the internet. I lost faith when everybody started bashing the new "bolt on" kits from HD before they had all the facts and a year later there are 1000's of them on the road with no issues and they are on stock cranks. I did read on the internet that Gaterman lifters are the best and everybody should run them. :up:
:up: I think it's I'm smarter than HD mentality.. Bunch of Bozos..
our 1st CVO used,, or we thought used.. a little under 3 quarts of oil in the first 300 miles,, turned out it wasn't burning it but it was all in the lower end of the motor,, pulled the oil pump and it has the oil cooled pump on it, not the water cooled pump.. HD next day aired us a new oil pump,, easy fix and the bike is back on the road.
Looked at a 114 cvo this AM. When started not a hint of smoke, white, blue or anything noted when throttle opened multiple times.
I went to the launch here on Thurs night, they fired up two in the showroom no smoke at all. Spoke to the manager as I know him well, he said they haven't had a problem but do know about it. Both bikes were on demo Saturday and they sold a free wheeler Thurs evening.
As for r pricing, a 2017 FLHX is $1500 more than a 2016 in England
Quote from: Tattoo on September 28, 2016, 09:56:21 AM
Quote from: Eccool on September 28, 2016, 09:18:59 AM
Quote from: Tattoo on September 28, 2016, 07:42:46 AM
Quote from: Big Cahuna on September 28, 2016, 04:28:41 AM
It sounds to me that Harley just designed the motor, slapped it together with the "It aughta work" mindset, then figured if somethings wrong with it the buyers will let us know about it. All with a new and improved price attached to it.,,,
Now that's funny!
Harley starting working on the M8 in 2014 and the price is not that much more than a 2016 of the same model.
Tattoo, you are giving him facts! Shame on you! By now you ought to know that Harley-haters hate facts!
2016 FLHX MSRP $20,899 2017 FLHX MSRP $20,999 It is truly disturbing and amusing at the same time to read some of non factual bashing you read on the internet, it makes me wonder why some people even own a HD if they suck that bad. we all know there are other options out there but that would mean you would have to change your dogs name and peel all those stickers off your truck and find a metric biker bar to take your selfies to post on Facebook. :wink:
I have one and it's one fine machine. I'm sure there is a few problems with some bikes, it's man made and there are going to be problems. Look what Twin Cam went through and it started as an 88". Future looks great for M8.
Had a small issue with a new 114 today .....dumped a crap load of oil out the bottom of the engine when the O Ring for the Crank Position Sensor let go...enough that the rear brakes failed... not a good deal there
[/quote]
It is truly disturbing and amusing at the same time to read some of non factual bashing you read on the internet, it makes me wonder why some people even own a HD if they suck that bad. we all know there are other options out there but that would mean you would have to change your dogs name and peel all those stickers off your truck and find a metric biker bar to take your selfies to post on Facebook. :wink:
[/quote]
:hyst: :hyst: :hyst:
Quote from: HV on October 05, 2016, 04:17:53 PM
Had a small issue with a new 114 today .....dumped a crap load of oil out the bottom of the engine when the O Ring for the Crank Position Sensor let go...enough that the rear brakes failed... not a good deal there
I was worried about that the first time I saw the new position of the sensor on the tech forum. But I said to myself, "Naw! Could never happen."
Quote from: les on October 05, 2016, 06:52:34 PM
Quote from: HV on October 05, 2016, 04:17:53 PM
Had a small issue with a new 114 today .....dumped a crap load of oil out the bottom of the engine when the O Ring for the Crank Position Sensor let go...enough that the rear brakes failed... not a good deal there
I was worried about that the first time I saw the new position of the sensor on the tech forum. But I said to myself, "Naw! Could never happen."
O-rings are about as bullet proof as you can get. However in several apps, HD seems to be clueless on correct sizing in some areas. Usually too much cross section and they are prone to overcompressing and tearing. Sometimes they are so small they just barely work. I'm sure others that have some hydraulic experience have found the same. Get it right, an oring is the best thing since sliced bread.
Ron
Get it right, an oring is the best thing since sliced bread.
Ron
[/quote]
And in this case, if it's not right the consequences can be fatal. On the twin cam, the consequences are some oil seeping on the case. Kind of scary.
Quote from: rbabos on October 06, 2016, 08:48:12 AM
Quote from: les on October 05, 2016, 06:52:34 PM
Quote from: HV on October 05, 2016, 04:17:53 PM
Had a small issue with a new 114 today .....dumped a crap load of oil out the bottom of the engine when the O Ring for the Crank Position Sensor let go...enough that the rear brakes failed... not a good deal there
I was worried about that the first time I saw the new position of the sensor on the tech forum. But I said to myself, "Naw! Could never happen."
O-rings are about as bullet proof as you can get. However in several apps, HD seems to be clueless on correct sizing in some areas. Usually too much cross section and they are prone to overcompressing and tearing. Sometimes they are so small they just barely work. I'm sure others that have some hydraulic experience have found the same. Get it right, an oring is the best thing since sliced bread.
Ron
In my comp airgun shooting setup, an O-ring half the size of a HD drain plug unit holds back 4,500 PSI of air pressure.
I recall one of the Space Shuttles used an O-ring that was sensitive to temperature variations...
Quote from: Bike31 on October 06, 2016, 01:46:50 PM
I recall one of the Space Shuttles used an O-ring that was sensitive to temperature variations...
Actually I thought that was a size error due to an imperfect / rounding error calculation between metric and imerial?
The alluded to Challenger O-ring failure: http://history.nasa.gov/rogersrep/v1ch4.htm (http://history.nasa.gov/rogersrep/v1ch4.htm) Reach your own conclusion.
Having an explosion on the Space Shuttle and an O-ring leak on a motorcycle are somewhat linked as each may result in damage and physical harm.
Loss of braking and rear wheel traction due to oil contamination is serious chit. This is what recalls are driven by and there have been several for this exact reason. Proper sizing, mechanical design, and component composition is critical as noted previously.
Edit: I should also add quality of build to the list of critical items. We may never hear why some smoke or leak oil if HD recaptures all of the defective components and dealers are reluctant or forbidden to publicly comment. That's ok until it costs someone mobility or their life.
Quote from: jbexeter on October 06, 2016, 04:14:20 PM
Quote from: Bike31 on October 06, 2016, 01:46:50 PM
I recall one of the Space Shuttles used an O-ring that was sensitive to temperature variations...
Actually I thought that was a size error due to an imperfect / rounding error calculation between metric and imerial?
I think the one your thinking about crashed in to Mars because of the metric to imperial error :banghead: :slap:
packrat
Does anybody have a picture of where this is on the engine block?
Quote from: Nastytls on October 08, 2016, 08:53:07 AM
Does anybody have a picture of where this is on the engine block?
I'd like to see the sensor. The previous version had the oring captured in a groove. While it could be nicked I suppose on install, full blow failure would be inpossible , even on the bottom of the engine.
Ron
HD Forums has some pics in their M8 section (SRI no linky). Three general locations for oil leaks...rocker cover gaskets, oil cooler and adjacent plumbing, and the crank sensor on the lower engine case. The two latter sources would allow oil to move aft under the engine towards the rear tire and brake. Probably not a common problem but over time who knows? Besides some oil pressure relief valve problems and resulting low oil pressure that's all I've read so far.
Quote from: Nastytls on October 08, 2016, 08:53:07 AM
Does anybody have a picture of where this is on the engine block?
(http://i.imgur.com/DjZ6H4J.png)
Thank you FSG.
Interesting that they moved it there, but I wouldn't think that it will be an issue. Engine drain plugs are o-ring sealed and don't have issues. Really any drain point on any engine has the potential to leak and get oil on the tire.
Just FYI The one we had leaking had the O Ring cut or torn apart when it was installed ...it came out split ..may need to look at install procedures etc...Its also very out in the open under the bike if anything hits it ...they had to move it due to the New balancer gear location where the old one was
(https://i.imgur.com/Rrrr9Xl.png)
Has HD provided any heads-up info to dealers regarding the problems discussed in this thread? Is it available?
Not YET
Just lube the O-ring and hole bore with oil or grease when installing and there will be no issues. Pretty sure the factory rams them in dry. That's what can damage the rings, especially with a ramy sob shoving it in the hole. The ring could have been defective during install also. I for one have no issue with how it seals or location.
Ron
I'm surprised there is no resolution to this yet. I guess I'm naive to how a dealership works, but if the demo bike smoked, wouldn't they pull it in the back to see what the issue is? :nix:
Quote from: Tattoo on September 28, 2016, 09:56:21 AM
Quote from: Eccool on September 28, 2016, 09:18:59 AM
Quote from: Tattoo on September 28, 2016, 07:42:46 AM
Quote from: Big Cahuna on September 28, 2016, 04:28:41 AM
It sounds to me that Harley just designed the motor, slapped it together with the "It aughta work" mindset, then figured if somethings wrong with it the buyers will let us know about it. All with a new and improved price attached to it.,,,
Harley starting working on the M8 in 2014 and the price is not that much more than a 2016 of the same model.
Tattoo, you are giving him facts! Shame on you! By now you ought to know that Harley-haters hate facts!
2016 FLHX MSRP $20,899 2017 FLHX MSRP $20,999 It is truly disturbing and amusing at the same time to read some of non factual bashing you read on the internet, it makes me wonder why some people even own a HD if they suck that bad. we all know there are other options out there but that would mean you would have to change your dogs name and peel all those stickers off your truck and find a metric biker bar to take your selfies to post on Facebook. :wink:
BEST POST EVER :potstir:
From Fuellings FB page
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161022/f275cfde293a32873c4ffa85e13b7ee7.jpg)
So what's the cause? Seals, guides, porosity, rings?
500 miles on that engine. :sick:
Quote from: Nastytls on October 23, 2016, 05:36:37 AM
500 miles on that engine. :sick:
I'm sure there's a few out there that have this issue. Based on the witness oil track it's intake related. Oil has dripped down after shutdown. Could be the valve seals or porosity within the intake track. Not sure how close the oil cooling jacket is to the intake port but it wouldn't take much to pressurize the oil circuit within the head with and soap an water in the port to find out if it is a porosity issue. Nothing there, then seals most likely as in fit, install damage or whatever. Porosity would be random but seals could be a return to the 05 fiasco. Not a reason to black list the M8 as it has so much more going for it.
Ron
Wonder what the intake/air filter looked like? Any excessive oil from the breathers? They mention on their facebook page new Viton valve seals will soon be available. Probably their take on fixing the problem.
That Photo looks like a typical Harley Piston top.... :nix:
Fuelling say they will have stem seals out soon so I'd think that was the problem. Back to 05 again then.
Quote from: HV on October 23, 2016, 11:23:23 AM
That Photo looks like a typical Harley Piston top.... :nix:
With raw oil running down from the intakes? Should be dry.
Ron
Possible that's just the intake breathing in the crankcase breather mist? Looks like both intakes have "some" residue, and the majority of the blow by on the near side?
Quote from: rigidthumper on October 24, 2016, 04:34:26 AM
Possible that's just the intake breathing in the crankcase breather mist? Looks like both intakes have "some" residue, and the majority of the blow by on the near side?
Looks to me leakage after shut down. Any breather mist would be burnt so the piston top should remain dryer looking. To get that much mist, to the point of liquid laying there the engine would be well worn out for that. Valve seal fit is the most likey cause, between all the other possibles. Don't know why it takes so long for something so simple to be determined. Probably is, but they aren't talking about it. :wink:
Ron
Ron
I have not personally laid eyes on the heads on one of these but from what I understand from talking to my tech there is a plug in the combustion chamber that is used to machine the oil passages. The theory is that it may be weeping oil around the plug at shutdown and pooling on top of the piston.
Quote from: mobe on October 24, 2016, 09:36:16 AM
I have not personally laid eyes on the heads on one of these but from what I understand from talking to my tech there is a plug in the combustion chamber that is used to machine the oil passages. The theory is that it may be weeping oil around the plug at shutdown and pooling on top of the piston.
Not picking on you but the techs explanation sounds fishy to me. :scratch: If it can leak oil in a static state sitting there, imagine what the hot compression gasses do going into the oil galley past that plug with the engine running.
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on October 24, 2016, 10:08:24 AM
Quote from: mobe on October 24, 2016, 09:36:16 AM
I have not personally laid eyes on the heads on one of these but from what I understand from talking to my tech there is a plug in the combustion chamber that is used to machine the oil passages. The theory is that it may be weeping oil around the plug at shutdown and pooling on top of the piston.
Not picking on you but the techs explanation sounds fishy to me. :scratch: If it can leak oil in a static state sitting there, imagine what the hot compression gasses do going into the oil galley past that plug with the engine running.
Ron
Sure would seem unlikely to have an oil galley plug there.
Quote from: Ohio HD on October 24, 2016, 10:34:46 AM
Quote from: rbabos on October 24, 2016, 10:08:24 AM
Quote from: mobe on October 24, 2016, 09:36:16 AM
I have not personally laid eyes on the heads on one of these but from what I understand from talking to my tech there is a plug in the combustion chamber that is used to machine the oil passages. The theory is that it may be weeping oil around the plug at shutdown and pooling on top of the piston.
Not picking on you but the techs explanation sounds fishy to me. :scratch: If it can leak oil in a static state sitting there, imagine what the hot compression gasses do going into the oil galley past that plug with the engine running.
Ron
Sure would seem unlikely to have an oil galley plug there.
:agree:
It seems quicker just to weld ,if the passage ends in the chamber.
I have seen no sign of plugs or passages in any pictures so far. Given the oil travels through the exhaust side of the heads it seems unlikely oil passages have anything to do with this.
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,93224.msg1077687.html#msg1077687 (http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,93224.msg1077687.html#msg1077687)
Added
Now this pic shows some promise of a link to the theory
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,93224.msg1077804.html#msg1077804 (http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,93224.msg1077804.html#msg1077804)
If this plug was to leak it could add oil and some pressure to the rocker cover area and possibly cause brather problems and valve seal problems.
Quote from: 1FSTRK on October 24, 2016, 11:36:55 AM
I have seen no sign of plugs or passages in any pictures so far. Given the oil travels through the exhaust side of the heads it seems unlikely oil passages have anything to do with this.
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,93224.msg1077687.html#msg1077687 (http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,93224.msg1077687.html#msg1077687)
Added
Now this pic shows some promise of a link to the theory
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,93224.msg1077804.html#msg1077804 (http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,93224.msg1077804.html#msg1077804)
If this plug was to leak it could add oil and some pressure to the rocker cover area and possibly cause brather problems and valve seal problems.
Agree, only exhaust passages and no real connection. Doubt there is any meaningfull oil pressure in that circuit since it basically goes in and dumps in the sump after. In the Fuellings pic, oil is running downhill from the intake valve. Anyone who has dealt with poor valve seals before, this is a perfect indicator of what happens on shut downs. Restarts it will smoke then clear out. Wonder if the exhaust port is wet also?
Ron
If that's oil that has entered the combustion chamber after shutdown on that piston in the Feuling pic, why isn't it towards the top of the pic? Do M8's have the side stand on the right hand side?
Wonder what the rear piston looks like. I'd also like to see pics of the heads, valves, ports etc.
I also noticed on Feuling fb page that the wee rods have four valve heads and adjustable rocker arms. I didn't know that. Surprised there was no mention of that on this site when the M8 was released.
Quote from: -deuced- on October 24, 2016, 10:58:54 PM
If that's oil that has entered the combustion chamber after shutdown on that piston in the Feuling pic, why isn't it towards the top of the pic? Do M8's have the side stand on the right hand side?
Wonder what the rear piston looks like. I'd also like to see pics of the heads, valves, ports etc.
I also noticed on Feuling fb page that the wee rods have four valve heads and adjustable rocker arms. I didn't know that. Surprised there was no mention of that on this site when the M8 was released.
No rocker arms on vrod.
Wee rod might be referring to the Street engine or at least better be since the Revolution has no rockers. :slap: In case anyone cares the Rev X engine in the Street has a single oh cam per head and rockers with adjusters because they need them. Not to be confused with the hydraulics of the M8 that really doesn't.
Ron
My bad
Quote from: joe_lyons on October 25, 2016, 06:53:50 AM
My bad
Only assuming that was the terminology. :idunno: As for where the oil comes from, first step is if the twin cooled does the same, then it has nothing to do with oil cooled heads so it's back to the seals.
Ron
Sorry, yes I was referring to the Street.
Another thing I saw on that fb page, Twin Cams are now old school. lol
Quote from: -deuced- on October 25, 2016, 01:13:49 PM
Sorry, yes I was referring to the Street.
Yup, I heard the term before so figured that's what you were talking about.
Ron
Anyway, in that M8 piston pic, it looks like oil has flowed into the right hand side exhaust valve pocket. Why? Why hasn't it flowed towards the the left hand side of the piston? Wouldn't that be the lowest point when the bike is parked?
A couple of guesses having not seen an M8 head:
Intake flow hits the right valve first or most...same for any oil mist.
Internal bridging captures oil around the right valve seal more than the left when parked. Previous pic...rear cylinder head...intake valves at top.
Quote from: -deuced- on October 25, 2016, 01:27:13 PM
Anyway, in that M8 piston pic, it looks like oil has flowed into the right hand side exhaust valve pocket. Why? Why hasn't it flowed towards the the left hand side of the piston? Wouldn't that be the lowest point when the bike is parked?
Bike might have been on a lift and upright or close to it. Since both valves open the same time it looks like the right intake was the one leaking. :idunno:
I do agree, on the side stand it would run to the left.
Ron
So three months to the day after this thread was started, is there still no definitive answer for what causes this? Is the problem (smoking M8's) still out there?