HarleyTechTalk

Technical Forums => Milwaukee-Eight => Topic started by: Dan Carey on September 10, 2019, 04:12:29 PM

Title: How does the oil get there?
Post by: Dan Carey on September 10, 2019, 04:12:29 PM
Installed a S&S cam and plate with oil pump package. Lost 1/2 quart of oil when I pulled the cam cover. installed the parts and buttoned it up. Put 1/2 quart new oil in the "hole". Checked the stick no oil on the stick, thought that was odd but added a quart anyway. Called S&S, was told to drain the sump, did that 1 1/2 quarts in it. Now the stick is showing no oil like before. What do you think?

2019 114 Breakout
Title: Re: How does the oil get there?
Post by: kd on September 10, 2019, 04:14:49 PM
Softail leaking past the valve into the crankcase.  Starting and idling the engine would have put it back in the tank.  If not then a possible pump issue.
Title: Re: How does the oil get there?
Post by: Coyote on September 10, 2019, 04:15:57 PM
2019 114 Breakout
Title: Re: How does the oil get there?
Post by: Dan Carey on September 10, 2019, 04:16:30 PM
Yes its a softail 114 Breakout FXBRS
Title: Re: How does the oil get there?
Post by: PoorUB on September 10, 2019, 05:47:31 PM
Coyote was pointing out that KD's info does not apply.

You ask, " How does the oil get in there?" more importantly' "How does the oil get out?" The oil gets there to lube the engine internals. The oil is removed by one of the gear sets in the oil pump. Perhaps you are missing an o-ring on the oil pump so the oil is not getting drawn into the oil pump so it collects in the crankcase.

Title: Re: How does the oil get there?
Post by: Dan Carey on September 10, 2019, 06:13:04 PM
PoorUB, thanks for your answer. I agree there is a problem, what exactly it is I don't know. The S&S pump is shipped held together by a plastic strap, and its a pain in the ass to get it on the shaft so its possible I may have a problem there.
Title: Re: How does the oil get there?
Post by: kd on September 10, 2019, 06:22:03 PM
2019 114 Breakout


 :oops:   Missed to 2019 bit. .... and this is the M8 page too ....  :missed:
Title: Re: How does the oil get there?
Post by: PoorUB on September 10, 2019, 07:57:27 PM
I have not had a M8 apart, but there is 2 or 3 o-rings between the cam late and engine block, perhaps you missed one.
Title: Re: How does the oil get there?
Post by: To The Max on September 11, 2019, 05:12:26 AM
Yes I agree two o rings in the cam case , can I ask why you changed the pump and plate.
Title: Re: How does the oil get there?
Post by: Dan Carey on September 11, 2019, 07:27:32 AM
First I changed the cam plate because I liked the idea of bronze bushings for the crank and cam support. The oil pump because the cam case and crank sump each have their own evacuation pump.
The 2 o-rings are the life of the system, without them no pressure and no return, so I pay close attention to them. I'm sure the o-rings are in place but, I'm going to pull the pump today just to make sure. If you are paying attention you can feel the pump penetrate the o-ring on the last quarter inch of install. I asked this question to see if someone knew something I didn't or something I should check for. Thanks.
Title: Re: How does the oil get there?
Post by: yobtaf103 on September 11, 2019, 07:50:35 AM
You have got the oil cooled version of the S&S set up?

Title: Re: How does the oil get there?
Post by: Dan Carey on September 11, 2019, 08:34:02 AM
Before install I checked for the O stamped on the pump.
Title: Re: How does the oil get there?
Post by: PoorUB on September 11, 2019, 10:50:23 AM
Bronze over aluminum is a non-issue in my mind. Pretty much ever car engine built today has a shaft spinning in an aluminum bore somewhere and run for well over the 100,000 miles. Have you seen the thread with an S&S cam plate with a spun bronze bushing. One more possible point of failure.
Title: Re: How does the oil get there?
Post by: Dan Carey on September 11, 2019, 03:32:13 PM
I did read that post about the spun bearing, which is not a common complaint. The bronze bushings can be modified if needed to be spin free and grooved on the outside to negate a oiling problem if they did spin. More importantly they are replaceable.

I found the solution to the problem I was having, partly my fault and partly S&S fault. Thats all I'm going to say about that. Thanks for all the advice, I did learn from this experience.
Title: Re: How does the oil get there?
Post by: scotman623 on September 11, 2019, 04:57:03 PM
I would really like to know the problem you were having and figured out so I donít make the same mistake when doing mine.. I totally understand you not wanting to post in public though... Hopefully mine goes smooth..
Title: Re: How does the oil get there?
Post by: PoorUB on September 11, 2019, 05:45:19 PM
Again, the aluminum cam plate should run the life of the engine. Bronze might be better, it is arguable.  You replaced  a part that will not wear out in normal operating life of the  engine.  Twin Cams run a cam plate with a plain aluminum bearing bore with zero isssues.  It is like improving something that doesn't  need improvement. But, hey, if it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling, then run with it. Guys have poured more money into thier motorcycles with less reason.
Title: Re: How does the oil get there?
Post by: Breeze on September 12, 2019, 03:57:54 AM
I did read that post about the spun bearing, which is not a common complaint. The bronze bushings can be modified if needed to be spin free and grooved on the outside to negate a oiling problem if they did spin. More importantly they are replaceable.

I found the solution to the problem I was having, partly my fault and partly S&S fault. Thats all I'm going to say about that. Thanks for all the advice, I did learn from this experience.





This is an information sharing forum. Others shared/helped you, now it's time to repay the consideration that was given. 
Title: Re: How does the oil get there?
Post by: Hossamania on September 12, 2019, 06:25:32 AM
I did read that post about the spun bearing, which is not a common complaint. The bronze bushings can be modified if needed to be spin free and grooved on the outside to negate a oiling problem if they did spin. More importantly they are replaceable.

I found the solution to the problem I was having, partly my fault and partly S&S fault. Thats all I'm going to say about that. Thanks for all the advice, I did learn from this experience.





This is an information sharing forum. Others shared/helped you, now it's time to repay the consideration that was given.

There are also site rules against bashing companies and individual issues should be taken up privately with that company.
Technical issues are ok to share, problems in dealing with the company to get them resolved are not necessarily ok.
Title: Re: How does the oil get there?
Post by: Dan89flstc on September 12, 2019, 07:06:59 AM


There are also site rules against bashing companies and individual issues should be taken up privately with that company.
Technical issues are ok to share, problems in dealing with the company to get them resolved are not necessarily ok.

The issues here is not company bashing, just a simple explanation as to what caused the problem. The OP had no issue with asking for help, but when he solved the problem he won`t post what the solution was.
Title: Re: How does the oil get there?
Post by: kd on September 12, 2019, 07:41:26 AM


There are also site rules against bashing companies and individual issues should be taken up privately with that company.
Technical issues are ok to share, problems in dealing with the company to get them resolved are not necessarily ok.

The issues here is not company bashing, just a simple explanation as to what caused the problem. The OP had no issue with asking for help, but when he solved the problem he won`t post what the solution was.


That's OK fellas.  When Dan asks a question, the answer is "I know the solution to the problem you are having. That's all I'm going to say about that".   :wink:   :nix:
Title: Re: How does the oil get there?
Post by: Coyote on September 12, 2019, 09:14:17 AM

This is an information sharing forum. Others shared/helped you, now it's time to repay the consideration that was given.

 :up:
Title: Re: How does the oil get there?
Post by: PoorUB on September 12, 2019, 11:25:47 AM
He probably F'ed it up himself and now won't admit it, not like nobody else here has!
Title: Re: How does the oil get there?
Post by: kd on September 12, 2019, 11:41:55 AM
 :hyst:  :hyst:  Who? ........  Me?   :embarrassed:
Title: Re: How does the oil get there?
Post by: Pete_Vit on September 12, 2019, 12:02:28 PM
 :nix: whacha talkin about....F@&d up ?  :hyst: :hyst:
Title: Re: How does the oil get there?
Post by: Hossamania on September 12, 2019, 02:59:27 PM


There are also site rules against bashing companies and individual issues should be taken up privately with that company.
Technical issues are ok to share, problems in dealing with the company to get them resolved are not necessarily ok.

The issues here is not company bashing, just a simple explanation as to what caused the problem. The OP had no issue with asking for help, but when he solved the problem he won`t post what the solution was.

Good point. I thought maybe he was having problems with S&S and the specifics should stay between them.
I agree that it would be nice to hear what the technical problems were, both user induced, and failed product induced.
And no, I have never screwed something up myself. Except for that one time. And, well, that one other time...
Title: Re: How does the oil get there?
Post by: Dan Carey on September 13, 2019, 06:39:17 PM
 :wtf: Come on, speculation is 100% conjecture on the "guessers" part.

In this case The oil pump was not assembled correctly, there was a slight gap in the 2 cases separated by the ss plate. That gap was caused by the alignment pins being stressed when assembled. I missed it when I installed it, I thought the oil pressure spring caused it and would make up when torqued to 110 IP. It didn't, it would not empty the crankcase sump. I pulled the pump out and called S&S tech services. The tech got a pump in hand and we went through them looking for the problem. I asked about the mismatch and he said there was no mismatch. I then found the problem with my pump and fixed it. 
Did this information help anyone, other than satisfy their curiosity?

Something to watch for with the pump is that it fits together and comes apart easily. I took a short cut and soaked the whole pump in motor oil prior to installing. That would have worked had the pump not been stressed.
Title: Re: How does the oil get there?
Post by: kd on September 13, 2019, 06:43:39 PM
   :up:  Now we all know what  an cause that problem on a fresh assembly and what to be careful about to prevent it.  Thanks
Title: Re: How does the oil get there?
Post by: PoorUB on September 13, 2019, 07:53:33 PM
Did this information help anyone, other than satisfy their curiosity?

Maybe not today, but someone installing a S&S oil pump might take a second look at it brfore boling it up and catch what you didn't.

Don't feel bad, a couple other guys around here screw up once in a while, although it wasn't any of us in this thread!  :wink: