Author Topic: 2nd to Neutral  (Read 3715 times)

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Offline cheech

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Re: 2nd to Neutral
« Reply #50 on: March 15, 2019, 03:18:29 PM »
FWIW, I have no problems finding neutral on any of my bikes. Even with an Ironhead! The point of my complaint with the Evo 5 speed is how to get into neutral. Can only be done from 1st, whereas any of the other four bikes I own can be done easily and reliabily from 2nd.

I get it, this is no big deal to many/most people, to have to shift into 1st to get into neutral. The absolute primary reason I hate that is because I'm a big city boy, ride daily to work and back through 25+ stoplights, some of them very long. I'm not one to sit at a 2-3 minute stop light holding the clutch in, so I pop into neutral, preferably as I roll up to the stop. Which, 99 times out of 100, is in 2nd gear. So why shift to 1st to simply get in to neutral? Clearly Harley-Davidson agrees, as all of their big twin bikes since 2000 allows you do get from 2nd to neutral (as did the Shovelhead 4speed before it). It's the Evo 5 speed that does not. And I have no idea how the Evo Sportster 5 speed trans does, but the Ironhead 4 speed also goes easily from 2nd to neutral.

-JW
I'm with ya JW113, I like that fact also. For the same reasons. As I've ridden and owned a Evo of that nature. Just the hollow, roller arm detented shift drum supported in the ball bearing pillow blocks has been in play since the 2000 Softails. And all through this thread it's claimed 02 up is the fix. But in actuality if you come across a take out from a 2000 up Softail you're in business. Now there is a 02 up revision to the shift drum which supersedes the earlier drum. It's not the fact it's hollow, nor roller arm detented. I don't have any first hand idea what the revision was nor held the old drum and the revised in my hand. I did search a little, didn't really come up with anything eye catching, nor trust any Ebay pictures as an actual representation of the part number it's claimed to be. So I thought maybe Turbo Knew as he seems well versed and knowledgeable, so I asked  and you see where that went.
 Oh well, Hopefully someone that is aware can chime in just for the sake of the differences and how well the revision improves it or what the intent of the revision was.
Best of luck!

Offline ecir50

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Re: 2nd to Neutral
« Reply #51 on: March 15, 2019, 03:36:14 PM »
don't understand why this matters since the part number now is -02. Harley got rid of the -00 for a reason obviously. 

Offline cheech

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Re: 2nd to Neutral
« Reply #52 on: March 15, 2019, 03:49:38 PM »
don't understand why this matters since the part number now is -02. Harley got rid of the -00 for a reason obviously.
Yeah, everything Harley changes ends up better.  :scratch:
Just for the sake of knowing the differences would be one. The other is, I don't think he's wanting to roll down to the dealer and get all the revised parts new. A nice used setup off of Ebay would be way more economical and it does what he wants out of it. And firsthand I have a 01 Road King since new, never been into the trans, so it has -00 drum. 65,000 beat the shit out of miles and shifts fine still!

Offline ecir50

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Re: 2nd to Neutral
« Reply #53 on: March 15, 2019, 04:03:07 PM »
Yeah OK but the -02's are plentiful and cheap so no need to look for one out of a -00 from a softail.

Offline david lee

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Re: 2nd to Neutral
« Reply #54 on: March 16, 2019, 02:53:44 PM »
My shovel hits neutral darn near any direction lol   But 1st or 2nd either one, easy peasy.
my shovel is the same but you have to be moving

Offline cheech

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Re: 2nd to Neutral
« Reply #55 on: March 17, 2019, 05:40:30 PM »
Yeah OK but the -02's are plentiful and cheap so no need to look for one out of a -00 from a softail.

My 2000 up reference wasn't meant as he should specifically look for a 2000 Softail.
As this thread was pretty much solved within 10 post, anything after that was just tidbits of info and discussion. And the 02 up intrigued me and prompted me to research lightly and made me aware of the 02 up revision. And that research didn't really net any major differences to the drum. So as there are many knowledgeable people on here I figured someone was aware of the revisions and any improvement they made to the shift setup if any and could recite them as easily as their birthdate. Simple as that.
For what it's worth if anyone goes to the dealer there is this part number: 33386-02 CAM SHIFTER/LEVER KIT, w/ 11342, 33301-00A, 33383-02, 34972-02B & 34978-00.
And it's what they give you if you order a drum for the earlier Twincam bikes. Comes with the drum, shift lever, and one of the pillow blocks. So the other pillow block would also need to be bought.
But onto the 02 up. If a guy reads this and it makes him want to update his Evo 5 speed. So he's at the swap meet, ask the seller at the table if he's got any 02 up shift drum setups. The seller replies no, but I got a 2000 Softail take out or maybe a 2001 FLT takeout. Then the guy that read this thread says that isn't going to work, the HTT thread says 02 up. But that's not the case. If he buys either of those is he going to get the smoother shifting, lighter, roller arm detented, ball bearing drum? YEP Is it going to allow him to go down to neutral from 2nd? YEP Is it the latest revised drum? NOPE
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 09:59:58 PM by cheech »

Offline JW113

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Re: 2nd to Neutral
« Reply #56 on: March 19, 2019, 08:24:56 AM »
So I've received the late 5 speed drum, blocks, & shift arm from ebay, and the trans top cover arrived yesterday. One curious thing though, the part number on the inside is ground off, and from what I can tell, it does not look any different than the Evo style cover. It's been said that with the TC drum and Evo cover, neutral light comes on in neutral and 5th gear. So the neutral switch is relocated on the TC trans cover, right? Is it in a drastically different locoation than the Evo?

I did ping the seller and ask WTF is up with the part number ground off, will probably send it back.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline turboprop

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Re: 2nd to Neutral
« Reply #57 on: March 19, 2019, 11:04:50 AM »
So I've received the late 5 speed drum, blocks, & shift arm from ebay, and the trans top cover arrived yesterday. One curious thing though, the part number on the inside is ground off, and from what I can tell, it does not look any different than the Evo style cover. It's been said that with the TC drum and Evo cover, neutral light comes on in neutral and 5th gear. So the neutral switch is relocated on the TC trans cover, right? Is it in a drastically different locoation than the Evo?

I did ping the seller and ask WTF is up with the part number ground off, will probably send it back.

-JW

Post a pic of the cover. The sensor on both covers is in a very similar location, but there are external differences between the two.

I think I have a cover you can have if yours is not correct.
(Admins dont get your panties in a wad. Not selling).
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Offline JW113

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Re: 2nd to Neutral
« Reply #58 on: March 19, 2019, 02:31:17 PM »
Sorry, I'm lazy!
 :SM:

Here are the pix that are on ebay. And indeed I can see in one of them that the p/n is ground off. Don't understand what that's all about.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Harley-Twin-Cam-Chrome-Transmission-Top-Cover-00-06-Softail-P-N-34541-00-2/172397075527?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Online Hossamania

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Re: 2nd to Neutral
« Reply #59 on: March 19, 2019, 02:59:27 PM »
Sorry, I'm lazy!
 :SM:

Here are the pix that are on ebay. And indeed I can see in one of them that the p/n is ground off. Don't understand what that's all about.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Harley-Twin-Cam-Chrome-Transmission-Top-Cover-00-06-Softail-P-N-34541-00-2/172397075527?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

-JW

Maybe it's hot and he thinks it's a serial number?
No shirt, no shoes, and I still get service. Why?
Girl, look at this body!

Offline cheech

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Re: 2nd to Neutral
« Reply #60 on: March 19, 2019, 03:14:30 PM »
Sorry, I'm lazy!
 :SM:

Here are the pix that are on ebay. And indeed I can see in one of them that the p/n is ground off. Don't understand what that's all about.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Harley-Twin-Cam-Chrome-Transmission-Top-Cover-00-06-Softail-P-N-34541-00-2/172397075527?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

-JW


Is that the one he indeed sent you? One pic just seems blurry, but appears number there. Maybe sandblasted, the 34543-00 is the part number on that 2nd picture

Offline ecir50

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Re: 2nd to Neutral
« Reply #61 on: March 19, 2019, 03:17:17 PM »
I appears you have the right one. Notice in below examples the distance between the recess area for the neutral switch. Also the later model has a has a large flange on the front between the two front holes.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Drag-Specialties-Chrome-Transmission-Top-Cover-for-87-99-Harley-Touring-Softail/302948191180?epid=1511821509&hash=item46891e8bcc:g:vNEAAOSwF5Vb4dXb

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Drag-Specialties-Chrome-Transmission-Top-Cover-98-06-Harley-Touring-Softail-FLHX/132978357633?hash=item1ef620b581:g:~p8AAOSwbURcgBzL

I used the early model cover on the drum swap as you are doing and the neutral light did come on in 5th. There is a good bit of movement when cover is loose so may have been able to tweak it when fasten to not allow the 5th neutral. Kinda got used to it like that and just left it alone. Now when I went to a N1 noticed internally the covers are different too The early cover interfered with the drum, could have clearanced but the later model fit without doing so. Sorry haven't tried the later cover with the drum swap but you should be ok if have later cover.

Offline cheech

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Re: 2nd to Neutral
« Reply #62 on: March 19, 2019, 03:20:36 PM »
And for the sake of everyone following this discussion, I had some extra time, got my assignment done as previously directed in this thread and going to post some pictures.  :hug:
It appears the later drum had an extra flange to tie the shift pins together. Must of had some issues with bending or them flexing.

Offline cheech

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Re: 2nd to Neutral
« Reply #63 on: March 19, 2019, 03:22:22 PM »
And for extra credit I have some cover pictures and differences I seen.  :hug:

Offline Deye76

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Re: 2nd to Neutral
« Reply #64 on: March 19, 2019, 04:30:43 PM »
Well done!
Note: the early cover is compatible with a later drum.
East Tenn.
2014 CVO RK, 2015 RGS, 1992 FXRP

Offline JW113

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Re: 2nd to Neutral
« Reply #65 on: March 19, 2019, 08:48:15 PM »
Nice work Cheech, but in fact the one I have here is not like either of those two in your pictures. Compare this picture of the inside view to two inside views you posted. Note the gasket surface. This one is almost perfectly rectangular. And note the placement of the injection gates. And the part number of this one has been clearly ground off with a grinder, he scarred one of the ribs next to the part number with the grinder. Why would somebody go to the trouble to do that?

I have no idea what I have, and the seller has not responded yet.

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I guess I'll also dig around on ebay and try to find one that looks the same.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline JW113

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Re: 2nd to Neutral
« Reply #66 on: March 19, 2019, 09:01:42 PM »
Well I think I know why it does not look like the *stock* HD part, and why the part number is ground off. From what I can tell, it is V-Taiwan p/n 43-0504.. Which, by the way, can be had brand new for LESS than I paid for this supposedly OEM part. Time to contact ebay and bitch...

-JW

2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline cheech

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Re: 2nd to Neutral
« Reply #67 on: March 19, 2019, 09:04:19 PM »
If you bought the exact one in the link that you posted earlier and he sent that. That's clearly not what was represented in the ad then. Total BS. Seems a need to dispute. Appears aftermarket to me. Its missing all the other markings the 2 OEM show on the inside also. And shaky as the switch recess is narrow as the Early OEM
LOL, you were posting as I was.

Offline Deye76

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Re: 2nd to Neutral
« Reply #68 on: March 20, 2019, 07:16:05 AM »
Ebay is a crap shoot. Actually buying the correct Taiwanese one is safer. I have a aftermarket clutch release trans end cover on my FXR, as good as any OE. Have been hearing the aftermarket inner primary cases are OK too. Sometimes you have to buy foreign parts to keep these older models on the road.
East Tenn.
2014 CVO RK, 2015 RGS, 1992 FXRP

Offline JW113

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Re: 2nd to Neutral
« Reply #69 on: March 20, 2019, 07:52:29 AM »
Much more often than not Ebay has been OK, and very often the ONLY place you can find hard to find parts. Yes, I've had to use aftermarket parts on occasion, but what burns me about this transaction is the deception. I try to avoid V-Tiwan parts at all cost, since 99% of anything that I've ever bought from that company is now in the landfill. There appears to be quite a few of the real deal for these trans top covers on ebay, I'm guessing many of them from guys converting their 5 speed to 6 speed. Rather have the real deal anyday over aftermarket. The only reason I'm chainging the trans top is to relocate the neutral switch so it don't come on in 5th. I can't trust V-Tiwan to get the switch hole in the correct location. They are incredibly half-ass at anything that requires precision.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline JW113

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Re: 2nd to Neutral
« Reply #70 on: September 15, 2019, 02:51:42 PM »
Well this story has a happy ending. Since it was screaming hot this weekend, I figured what the heck, might was well go out into the SOUTH FACING shop, sweat my can off, and swap the shift drum. While at it, I also changed the rear pulley back to a 70T. Took most of Friday and half of Saturday, but it's all back together and just went for a shake down cruise. YAY! It snicks right into neutral from 2nd gear now. Time to start thinking of the next annoying little personality quirk to improve.

 :baby:

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline turboprop

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Re: 2nd to Neutral
« Reply #71 on: September 15, 2019, 03:12:16 PM »
Well this story has a happy ending. Since it was screaming hot this weekend, I figured what the heck, might was well go out into the SOUTH FACING shop, sweat my can off, and swap the shift drum. While at it, I also changed the rear pulley back to a 70T. Took most of Friday and half of Saturday, but it's all back together and just went for a shake down cruise. YAY! It snicks right into neutral from 2nd gear now. Time to start thinking of the next annoying little personality quirk to improve.

 :baby:

-JW

You swapped in the late TC style drum and pawl?
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Offline JW113

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Re: 2nd to Neutral
« Reply #72 on: September 15, 2019, 03:20:11 PM »
Yup.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline turboprop

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Re: 2nd to Neutral
« Reply #73 on: September 15, 2019, 03:46:54 PM »
Yup.

-JW

I think I have  discussed this before on this page. I build about a dozen five speed transmissions every year. Most of them are for FXRs in my buddies bikes but that doesn't matter. I initially bought into the Baker drum and pawl update but eventually realized that my stock '05 bagger shifted much better than the gear set in one of my bikes that had the Baker stuff. Like you, I eventually bit the bullet and pulled the Baker stuff in favor of the late model TC.  Every transmission I have built since then has the late TC drum and pawl. I also have the gears back cut, and micro polished.

Glad to hear you found success after biting the bullet on this.
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Offline JW113

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Re: 2nd to Neutral
« Reply #74 on: September 15, 2019, 05:25:02 PM »
Exact-a-mundo, I had installed the Baker kit, which is what I just pulled out of it. I pinged Baker multiple times, asking if this kit allowed shifting from 2nd to neutral, which was my main concern. All I got back was nonsense, how much better my trans would shift with their kit. Which, by the way, did not turn out to be true, and they never would answer if their kit allowed shift to neutral from 2nd. It DOESN'T. Same as stock EVO trans. And it also did not eliminate the false neutral between 3rd and 4th. Am very happy with this stock TC drum, does exactly what I need it to, and so far, no false neutrals either.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber