Author Topic: Venting fix?  (Read 9562 times)

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Offline PoorUB

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Re: Venting fix?
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2019, 08:07:36 PM »
Why vent the heads back to the pan? The pressures should be the same. Why not just plug the heads and remove the head vents completely at that point and vent only with his pan vent?
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Offline Maddo Snr

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Re: Venting fix?
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2019, 12:16:17 PM »
Why vent the heads back to the pan? The pressures should be the same. Why not just plug the heads and remove the head vents completely at that point and vent only with his pan vent?

UB, in closed systems the emulsified contaminants and particulate-laden fumes generally rise to the top of the system, hence the general use of venting in the roof of the system.

For pressure control in a dry-sump system you can vent anywhere, as you rightly say. The HD system is also there to meet emission control regs as well.

p,s, The use of a transmission vent directly to atmosphere is illegal in Australia, how they get away with that is anyones' guess...
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 12:45:59 PM by Maddo Snr »
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Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Venting fix?
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2019, 04:13:49 PM »
Why vent the heads back to the pan? The pressures should be the same. Why not just plug the heads and remove the head vents completely at that point and vent only with his pan vent?

Because if you motor is an oil puker, it goes into the oil pan, not the TB or catch can, or all over your bike. 
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Offline PoorUB

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Re: Venting fix?
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2019, 06:02:21 PM »
Why vent the heads back to the pan? The pressures should be the same. Why not just plug the heads and remove the head vents completely at that point and vent only with his pan vent?

Because if you motor is an oil puker, it goes into the oil pan, not the TB or catch can, or all over your bike.

You missed my point.

Where is the pressure differential that moves the crankcase pressure at the heads back to the oil pan. They should be the same pressure. It would be like poking two holes in a sealed tin can, slipping the opposite ends of a single hose into the two holes and expecting air to flow through the hose.
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Venting fix?
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2019, 06:08:26 PM »
Why vent the heads back to the pan? The pressures should be the same. Why not just plug the heads and remove the head vents completely at that point and vent only with his pan vent?

Because if you motor is an oil puker, it goes into the oil pan, not the TB or catch can, or all over your bike.

You missed my point.

Where is the pressure differential that moves the crankcase pressure at the heads back to the oil pan. They should be the same pressure. It would be like poking two holes in a sealed tin can, slipping the opposite ends of a single hose into the two holes and expecting air to flow through the hose.

Larger motors that are run hard need more venting. More isn't going to hurt, it will help.
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Offline No Cents

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Re: Venting fix?
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2019, 04:15:57 AM »
   my question is why would you want to dump what comes out of the head breathers back into your oil pan/tank?
I would say 90% of what comes out of my head breathers, which I do run to a catch can...is "water". I do get some oil out of my breather system to the catch can...but it's mostly water. I wouldn't want to dump that watery muck back into my oil pan/tank that has clean oil in it. Last I knew...water and oil don't mix.
   Maybe I'm missing something here.   :nix:  If the oil pan/tank is building pressure...then I would think drilling and tapping the oil fill hole for a fitting should let it vent and release pressure if it needed to.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 05:40:44 AM by No Cents »
08 FLHX my grocery getter, 124ci, wfolarry 110" heads, Burns pipe, 158/152 sae

Offline PoorUB

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Re: Venting fix?
« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2019, 06:07:08 AM »
Larger motors that are run hard need more venting. More isn't going to hurt, it will help.


Sure, but this basically vents the crankcase back to the crankcase. The top of the heads is the same cavity as the crankcase and the oil pan. There is not more venting, unless something has drastically changed and I missed it! If i am wrong someone please tell me where the heads, crankcase and oil pan got closed off from each other. :idunno:
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Offline cherryseeg2

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Re: Venting fix?
« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2019, 12:09:42 PM »
   my question is why would you want to dump what comes out of the head breathers back into your oil pan/tank?
I would say 90% of what comes out of my head breathers, which I do run to a catch can...is "water". I do get some oil out of my breather system to the catch can...but it's mostly water. I wouldn't want to dump that watery muck back into my oil pan/tank that has clean oil in it. Last I knew...water and oil don't mix.
   Maybe I'm missing something here.   :nix:  If the oil pan/tank is building pressure...then I would think drilling and tapping the oil fill hole for a fitting should let it vent and release pressure if it needed to.

 :agree:

My 120 is vented to the ground and if anything ever comes out of it is more water than oil. 
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Offline kd

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Re: Venting fix?
« Reply #33 on: March 07, 2019, 05:42:49 PM »
 :agree:  x3
KD

Offline hd06

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Re: Venting fix?
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2019, 02:43:21 AM »
  I had mine vented to the ground and I was getting that crap all over my bags. That's when I went to a catch can.

Offline IronButt70

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Re: Venting fix?
« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2019, 09:09:13 AM »
Mine is vented to the ground. I save old socks, cut them in half and tie wrap to the hose. When they get oil soaked I change socks. Yes, Iím cheap but there is no mess.  :SM:
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Offline hogpipes1

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Re: Venting fix?
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2019, 10:10:49 AM »
Mine is vented to the ground. I save old socks, cut them in half and tie wrap to the hose. When they get oil soaked I change socks. Yes, Iím cheap but there is no mess.  :SM:

Cheap is good if it solves the issue. Going to do the same today with my XL drips on the the patio. Lots of old socks for rags now 1 more good use .  :up:

Offline Hossamania

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Re: Venting fix?
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2019, 10:25:35 AM »
Compared to the leak from my transmission shaft, my breather leak is pretty minimal. I can live with it.
It's on my list of things to fix. The first thing on the list is ride. There's stuff after that, but mostly I stick with the the first part.
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Offline hd06

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Re: Venting fix?
« Reply #38 on: March 09, 2019, 04:27:14 AM »
     Maddo Snr Is there a way you can tie in your gage on the oil pan to find how much pressure or what's going on.   Thank

Offline MakoHD

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Re: Venting fix?
« Reply #39 on: March 09, 2019, 06:15:15 AM »
I overnighted from TMAN two oil neck venting kits on Thursday... I installed one on my bike and another on my friends bike. it makes perfect sense to me, can't hurt it'll only help. I do have  a 124ci and I cruise 90mph.

Offline No Cents

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Re: Venting fix?
« Reply #40 on: March 09, 2019, 07:14:24 AM »
I overnighted from TMAN two oil neck venting kits on Thursday... I installed one on my bike and another on my friends bike. it makes perfect sense to me, can't hurt it'll only help. I do have  a 124ci and I cruise 90mph.

    deleted...sorry about that
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 07:20:12 AM by No Cents »
08 FLHX my grocery getter, 124ci, wfolarry 110" heads, Burns pipe, 158/152 sae

Offline MakoHD

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Re: Venting fix?
« Reply #41 on: March 09, 2019, 07:26:11 AM »
Breather

Offline No Cents

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Re: Venting fix?
« Reply #42 on: March 09, 2019, 08:31:03 AM »
  I would think that set up should work venting any pressure built up inside the the oil tank.
I was more concerned about the video TR posted on Facebook where he taps the heads with a fitting for the breathers and he vents the breather lines back into the transmission case back into the oil tank. I don't like that idea at all. Here is that video.
   https://youtu.be/WB4swSegxwI
   This is the ratio of water to oil that I get out of my catch can from my head breathers. No way would I dump that back into my clean oil like TR's set up is doing.
  [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]  
08 FLHX my grocery getter, 124ci, wfolarry 110" heads, Burns pipe, 158/152 sae

Offline Billy

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Re: Venting fix?
« Reply #43 on: March 09, 2019, 02:49:03 PM »
  I would think that set up should work venting any pressure built up inside the the oil tank.
I was more concerned about the video TR posted on Facebook where he taps the heads with a fitting for the breathers and he vents the breather lines back into the transmission case back into the oil tank. I don't like that idea at all. Here is that video.
   https://youtu.be/WB4swSegxwI
   This is the ratio of water to oil that I get out of my catch can from my head breathers. No way would I dump that back into my clean oil like TR's set up is doing.
  [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

That water comes from moisture inside the engine drawn in through the head breathers, TR is plumbing the heads back to the oil tank and allowing the engine to breathe only through the vent back at the fender. The crankcase has to be vented to the atmosphere somewhere and it will allow moist air in condensing inside the engine. When the engine is at full operating temperature it will turn the water back into vapor and expel it back out the vent wherever it is.
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Offline Heinz

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Re: Venting fix?
« Reply #44 on: March 09, 2019, 04:46:26 PM »
If this kit helps relieve pressure thereby making less oil and water going into the throttle body it sounds like a winner to me. The only thing that is unfortunate it is that it has to be in such a prominent location and can't be hidden better.

Offline No Cents

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Re: Venting fix?
« Reply #45 on: March 09, 2019, 05:40:27 PM »
   Billy...that is exactly my point.
Lets say you took four or five short rides and you had TR's venting system. The engine did not get hot enough in the short rides to come up to full operating temp...so the condensation/water that came out of the breathers that you have routed back to the oil tank doesn't turn back into a vapor so it can be expelled out of the filter at the rear fender. That condensation/water then sits in the oil pan and is eventually re-circulated back thru the engine until it reaches a temperature where it turns back to a vapor and it can be expelled out of the system. In the meantime...you have diluted your oil with water.
  I'd much rather take the condensation/water completely out of the mix and dump it directly into a catch can. That way my oil stays clean and free of any added moisture to it. Maybe I'm looking at this wrong...but I do not agree with dumping the breathers back into the oil pan. I do agree if the oil pan needs addition venting...the kit he is offering with the tapping of the oil filler hole should work without issue by releasing any excessive oil tank pressure build up. I will add...as you put more and more miles on the bike that filter at the rear fender will eventually begin to clog and restrict the gases from being expelled. I found that out the hard way on my catch can. That filter should be cleaned...very often.
08 FLHX my grocery getter, 124ci, wfolarry 110" heads, Burns pipe, 158/152 sae

Offline turboprop

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Re: Venting fix?
« Reply #46 on: March 09, 2019, 06:32:46 PM »
None of you guys are from the south. TR was saying he is venting the heads to the oil pan instead of to an external catch tank which he discusses at the beginning of the video. This is done not to relieve pressure from the oil tank, but to relieve the pressure from the heads back into the oil tank.

Those fittings in the heads are not a new idea. S&S does that on their 4-⅛" bore heads (Evo and TC) to get around harley's patent. From S&S, those fittings are plumbed to the AC and a nipple on the manifold. It is pretty common for gear heads to drill the front port (smaller size as it comes from S&S) to accept a ⅛ NPT fitting and run both heads to a catch can. That is how the TC124 in my re/white bike is done and is very similar to how PW has his TC126 set up. The traditional head vents in my engine are plugged. I run a hose from the fitting in each head to a catch can. I also have a line teed into the oil tank vent to engine hose (similar to the setup sold by Fueling). All three of these lines have one-way valves in them. Seems to work very well.
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Offline cheech

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Re: Venting fix?
« Reply #47 on: March 09, 2019, 07:59:57 PM »


That water comes from moisture inside the engine drawn in through the head breathers, TR is plumbing the heads back to the oil tank and allowing the engine to breathe only through the vent back at the fender. The crankcase has to be vented to the atmosphere somewhere and it will allow moist air in condensing inside the engine. When the engine is at full operating temperature it will turn the water back into vapor and expel it back out the vent wherever it is.
By design the head breathers have the Umbrella valve which only allows crankcase pressure to be expelled, nothing drawn back in. If it is working as designed. At least on the twin cam. Which the video was shot on. Did a double take because though whoa isn't this in the M8 forum,.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 08:04:41 PM by cheech »

Offline Vision

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Re: Venting fix?
« Reply #48 on: March 10, 2019, 08:34:23 AM »


That water comes from moisture inside the engine drawn in through the head breathers, TR is plumbing the heads back to the oil tank and allowing the engine to breathe only through the vent back at the fender. The crankcase has to be vented to the atmosphere somewhere and it will allow moist air in condensing inside the engine. When the engine is at full operating temperature it will turn the water back into vapor and expel it back out the vent wherever it is.
By design the head breathers have the Umbrella valve which only allows crankcase pressure to be expelled, nothing drawn back in. If it is working as designed. At least on the twin cam. Which the video was shot on. Did a double take because though whoa isn't this in the M8 forum,.

The umbrella valves in the stock M8 breathers are not very good.  Iíve watched a builder first-hand show me how air can and will go in both directions.  The umbrella valves are flimsy and about the size of your pinky nail and not very reliable.  For that reason,  I use and external engine breather with a Hayden valve that will only allow air and oil/mist out...  The twin cam design is more solid from what I understand.  T-Manís to mods working together seem like a more set it and forget it solution with the exception of cleaning the catch can by the fender periodically.

Offline Billy

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Re: Venting fix?
« Reply #49 on: March 10, 2019, 02:27:04 PM »
   Billy...that is exactly my point.
Lets say you took four or five short rides and you had TR's venting system. The engine did not get hot enough in the short rides to come up to full operating temp...so the condensation/water that came out of the breathers that you have routed back to the oil tank doesn't turn back into a vapor so it can be expelled out of the filter at the rear fender. That condensation/water then sits in the oil pan and is eventually re-circulated back thru the engine until it reaches a temperature where it turns back to a vapor and it can be expelled out of the system. In the meantime...you have diluted your oil with water.
  I'd much rather take the condensation/water completely out of the mix and dump it directly into a catch can. That way my oil stays clean and free of any added moisture to it. Maybe I'm looking at this wrong...but I do not agree with dumping the breathers back into the oil pan. I do agree if the oil pan needs addition venting...the kit he is offering with the tapping of the oil filler hole should work without issue by releasing any excessive oil tank pressure build up. I will add...as you put more and more miles on the bike that filter at the rear fender will eventually begin to clog and restrict the gases from being expelled. I found that out the hard way on my catch can. That filter should be cleaned...very often.

My thinking (very possibly flawed) is if atmosphere isn't introduced at the head there wouldn't be water/oil circulating there, it would be more of a closed loop there and just circulate the air/oil mist back to the tank and the moist air would take the path of least resistance out the fender breather. It sounds like what you have is working fine and as long as you're happy with it, I wouldn't change a thing. I run 2 lengths of 5/16th fuel hose to a T then down about a half inch below the frame, no filter or catch can and it never has dripped on the floor, but if repeated short rides in cooler weather, I do get some of that "chocolate milk" looking stuff on the dipstick, so I started taking the long way home.  :smiled:
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