Author Topic: Cold starting issues  (Read 616 times)

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Offline Vision

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Cold starting issues
« on: March 09, 2019, 07:15:54 PM »
Guys,

Hoping you guys can help with a cold starting issue that has me confused.   My bike is a garage kept (non-heated) 2018 RGS.  I picked it up with an HD Stage 4 from new.  As soon as the temperature dropped under 50 degrees, I have a very difficult time starting it.  My bike sumped back in November and I took the opportunity to bump it up to a 124.  It actually has a little less compression than with the Stage 4, but still the same issue when under 50 degrees.  I also notice that the bike lunges when I try to start in gear when the bike is cold as well.  I’ve heard the lunging is normal behavior,  but I wanted to make sure I disclosed everything.

I know it’s not the battery.  I’ve gone as far as getting a 720 CCA lithium ion battery and although it cranks hard over and over again,   It does not start. Checked voltage, 13 amps doesnt drop much at all when cranking.

So,  I went to Home Depot today completely frustrated due to missing a great day of cool weather riding in the North East.  I purchased a 500W halogen lamp.  Aimed it right at the primary cover for about 1.5 hours.   Came out and the bike started strong on the first try...  Took the bike out for a 25-30 mile ride and no issues.  Ran strong.   It fired right back up after I turned it off and restarted in neutral also started in gear with no lunging.   WTH??? Is this an oil weight issue?  At the moment, I’m running regular Dino 20/50 until the new cylinder/Pistons are broken in and then I will switch to Amsoil. 

The only comparison I have is my 2014 SGS with an S&S 124 Crate motor running Amsoil motor, primary and tranny oil.  I swear the 2014 explodes on if you look at it too hard and regardless of the weather.

Any ideas?  Thanks in advance!
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 07:27:01 PM by Vision »

Offline cbumdumb

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Re: Cold starting issues
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2019, 07:32:30 PM »
My 18 and my 19 rgu both lunged when started in gear when cold and would or will grind going into first if not rocked clutch pulled in . If allowed to idle until cooling fans come on not so bad ...... bye the way I live in south west Louisiana so temps not that damn cold

Online Hossamania

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Re: Cold starting issues
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2019, 10:20:29 PM »
That's why I don't like starting it in gear, especially when cold. The thick gear oil and mildly sticking clutch plates put extra drag on the starter motor.
As far as it not starting cold, it has nothing to do with the oil. It could be the temperature sensor, possibly a crank position sensor, the bike can be hooked up to a scanner to check those and also check what else is going on. But the weight of the oil is not causing the issue.
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Offline Tail Ridr

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Re: Cold starting issues
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2019, 04:24:44 AM »
Never started one in gear...would never have thought of it doing that. Why would anyone start one in gear, No first gear Clunk?  :idunno:

I guess the only time I ever start my Semi in gear is because I can't get it in gear from clutch brake issues.
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Offline Vision

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Re: Cold starting issues
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2019, 05:13:37 AM »
My 18 and my 19 rgu both lunged when started in gear when cold and would or will grind going into first if not rocked clutch pulled in . If allowed to idle until cooling fans come on not so bad ...... bye the way I live in south west Louisiana so temps not that damn cold

Thank you for your input.  Not a typical practice to start my bike in gear unless Iím already out and some how pop the clutch while sitting at a light or something by mistake. Got to the point I tried it to see if it would make a difference starting.  It didnít so,  wonít be doing that any more.

Offline Vision

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Re: Cold starting issues
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2019, 05:20:00 AM »
That's why I don't like starting it in gear, especially when cold. The thick gear oil and mildly sticking clutch plates put extra drag on the starter motor.
As far as it not starting cold, it has nothing to do with the oil. It could be the temperature sensor, possibly a crank position sensor, the bike can be hooked up to a scanner to check those and also check what else is going on. But the weight of the oil is not causing the issue.

Thanks for your response..  I will definitely look into both!

Offline Vision

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Re: Cold starting issues
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2019, 05:27:47 AM »
Never started one in gear...would never have thought of it doing that. Why would anyone start one in gear, No first gear Clunk?  :idunno:

I guess the only time I ever start my Semi in gear is because I can't get it in gear from clutch brake issues.

Thanks for your response..  Please read up.  Definitely not a typical practice to. start in gear.  Only mentioned because I was unsure if the two conditions were somehow linked. I think weíve all started our bikes in gear at some point.  Maybe not When cold,  but surely for some other reason.  I donít think thatís standard practice with anyone.

I forgot to mention that Iím running a Thundermax on my bike.  Does it make any sense to plug the stick ecm in and see if the bike will start cold and then shut it right down?  A little apprehensive to try this because of the wide band 02 sensors and the lack of tune on the stock ecm.

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Re: Cold starting issues
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2019, 08:10:32 AM »
Installing the stock ecm would be an easy way to check if the Thundermax is the issue. Don't worry about the tune, you're not going to be riding it, or riding it very far, just checking for cold start.
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Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Cold starting issues
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2019, 08:26:51 AM »
If he's a 124" now, that OEM ECM with OEM tune isn't going to act right at cold startup either. Especially with WB O2's in there.
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Offline rigidthumper

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Re: Cold starting issues
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2019, 09:15:45 AM »
I didn't see a T-Max map for a 124" M8.  Which base map are you running? Did you call Thunder Max support for cold start help?

Offline Vision

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Re: Cold starting issues
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2019, 09:46:25 AM »
Thanks guys, I can try the swap.  Just read in Thundermax literature that they suggest a swap if having starting issues regardless of the 02 sensors. 


I didn't see a T-Max map for a 124" M8.  Which base map are you running? Did you call Thunder Max support for cold start help?

Thanks for your input.  Yes, you are correct.  I did speak with Thundermax prior to the 124 build and they instructed me to use map 447, which I believe is a 117 map.  They said that it would adjust.  It rides beautiful once started.  No flat spots,  idle is good, no decel popping at all.  Just this cold start issue with the magic heat lamp fix. Smh.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2019, 11:30:39 AM by Vision »

Offline Vision

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Re: Cold starting issues
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2019, 12:11:34 PM »
I swapped out the TM ECM with the stock.  The bike did not start, BUT  there was actual combustion!  It wanted to start but probably due to the new build,  it had difficulty.  I  swapped back the TM,  re-initialized it and tried to start.  I got cranking,  but no combustion whatsoever.  I set up the heat lamp pointing at the primary and will go back out in another 1.5 hours and try again with the TM.  Makes me feel that there may be a temperature sensor/setting thatís off in the Thundermax as suggested.   Will let update you guys once I try to start the bike again.

Offline rbabos

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Re: Cold starting issues
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2019, 12:40:03 PM »
I swapped out the TM ECM with the stock.  The bike did not start, BUT  there was actual combustion!  It wanted to start but probably due to the new build,  it had difficulty.  I  swapped back the TM,  re-initialized it and tried to start.  I got cranking,  but no combustion whatsoever.  I set up the heat lamp pointing at the primary and will go back out in another 1.5 hours and try again with the TM.  Makes me feel that there may be a temperature sensor/setting thatís off in the Thundermax as suggested.   Will let update you guys once I try to start the bike again.
Probably nothing more then initial pulse setting or cranking fuel setting. Give it a shot of fuel in the intake to confirm too lean for cold start, then adjust the tables.
Ron

Offline Billy

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Re: Cold starting issues
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2019, 02:05:53 PM »
I swapped out the TM ECM with the stock.  The bike did not start, BUT  there was actual combustion!  It wanted to start but probably due to the new build,  it had difficulty.  I  swapped back the TM,  re-initialized it and tried to start.  I got cranking,  but no combustion whatsoever.  I set up the heat lamp pointing at the primary and will go back out in another 1.5 hours and try again with the TM.  Makes me feel that there may be a temperature sensor/setting thatís off in the Thundermax as suggested.   Will let update you guys once I try to start the bike again.
Probably nothing more then initial pulse setting or cranking fuel setting. Give it a shot of fuel in the intake to confirm too lean for cold start, then adjust the tables.
Ron

I agree, it sounds like too little fuel for cold starts.
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Offline Vision

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Re: Cold starting issues
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2019, 04:32:08 PM »
I swapped out the TM ECM with the stock.  The bike did not start, BUT  there was actual combustion!  It wanted to start but probably due to the new build,  it had difficulty.  I  swapped back the TM,  re-initialized it and tried to start.  I got cranking,  but no combustion whatsoever.  I set up the heat lamp pointing at the primary and will go back out in another 1.5 hours and try again with the TM.  Makes me feel that there may be a temperature sensor/setting that’s off in the Thundermax as suggested.   Will let update you guys once I try to start the bike again.
Probably nothing more then initial pulse setting or cranking fuel setting. Give it a shot of fuel in the intake to confirm too lean for cold start, then adjust the tables.
Ron

I swapped out the TM ECM with the stock.  The bike did not start, BUT  there was actual combustion!  It wanted to start but probably due to the new build,  it had difficulty.  I  swapped back the TM,  re-initialized it and tried to start.  I got cranking,  but no combustion whatsoever.  I set up the heat lamp pointing at the primary and will go back out in another 1.5 hours and try again with the TM.  Makes me feel that there may be a temperature sensor/setting that’s off in the Thundermax as suggested.   Will let update you guys once I try to start the bike again.
Probably nothing more then initial pulse setting or cranking fuel setting. Give it a shot of fuel in the intake to confirm too lean for cold start, then adjust the tables.
Ron

I agree, it sounds like too little fuel for cold starts.

Thanks Fellas. Will make that adjustment.  It still puzzles me why the heat is making so much of a difference. 

Sorry for the late update,  but just like yesterday,  the bike started up once the heat lamp was on it for a while.  Took a little longer today because the temp dropped a bit.  Once again, the bike ran strong.  Took the opportunity to get her out for a ride and get some more break in miles on the new cylinders.   

Online Hossamania

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Re: Cold starting issues
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2019, 04:45:52 PM »
I imagine it's much like using a choke. When cold, my bike starts fine when I use the choke. No way it will start without it unless I work that throttle hard.
When warm, it starts fine with no choke.
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Offline Vision

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Re: Cold starting issues
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2019, 07:34:33 PM »
Thatís a great Point!  Will be reaching out to Thundermax this week.

Offline Vision

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Re: Cold starting issues
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2019, 04:52:11 PM »
Good news. Did a support data collection on the Thundermax last night and sent it in to be analyzed.  Jimmy in Tech support contacted me this morning and told me that my map and data collection looked great.  I was not surprised because the bike runs great once started.

He sent me a Firmware update that was not on their site and said that he was confident that it would fix the cold start issue and it did immediately after running through the process!!!!!!!!!!   

If anyone with an M8 is having this problem using Thundermax.  this may be your solution as well!

Thanks guys for pitching in to Help!  Hossamania,  you led me to it with the ECM swap! You're the man!  Thanks again!
« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 11:50:52 PM by Vision »

Offline 96349

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Re: Cold starting issues
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2019, 09:14:33 PM »
My 18 and my 19 rgu both lunged when started in gear when cold and would or will grind going into first if not rocked clutch pulled in . If allowed to idle until cooling fans come on not so bad ...... bye the way I live in south west Louisiana so temps not that damn cold

Thank you for your input.  Not a typical practice to start my bike in gear unless Iím already out and some how pop the clutch while sitting at a light or something by mistake. Got to the point I tried it to see if it would make a difference starting.  It didnít so,  wonít be doing that any more.
I understand the principal of why some people think it does harm to start your bike in gear. But, I have been starting every bike I have ever owned in 55 years of riding and I have yet to see any damage. I have often wondered how many people start their cages by putting them into neutral first or how many put their bikes into neutral when coming up to a stop light. Those were rhetorical questions as I really don't give a rat's hind quarters what others do or don't do. Ride more & worry less is my motto.

Offline rbabos

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Re: Cold starting issues
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2019, 06:28:40 AM »
My 18 and my 19 rgu both lunged when started in gear when cold and would or will grind going into first if not rocked clutch pulled in . If allowed to idle until cooling fans come on not so bad ...... bye the way I live in south west Louisiana so temps not that damn cold

Thank you for your input.  Not a typical practice to start my bike in gear unless Iím already out and some how pop the clutch while sitting at a light or something by mistake. Got to the point I tried it to see if it would make a difference starting.  It didnít so,  wonít be doing that any more.
I understand the principal of why some people think it does harm to start your bike in gear. But, I have been starting every bike I have ever owned in 55 years of riding and I have yet to see any damage. I have often wondered how many people start their cages by putting them into neutral first or how many put their bikes into neutral when coming up to a stop light. Those were rhetorical questions as I really don't give a rat's hind quarters what others do or don't do. Ride more & worry less is my motto.
You must give a rat's or you wouldn't have posted? :hyst:
Ron

Offline Vision

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Re: Cold starting issues
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2019, 04:12:25 AM »
My 18 and my 19 rgu both lunged when started in gear when cold and would or will grind going into first if not rocked clutch pulled in . If allowed to idle until cooling fans come on not so bad ...... bye the way I live in south west Louisiana so temps not that damn cold

Thank you for your input.  Not a typical practice to start my bike in gear unless I’m already out and some how pop the clutch while sitting at a light or something by mistake. Got to the point I tried it to see if it would make a difference starting.  It didn’t so,  won’t be doing that any more.
I understand the principal of why some people think it does harm to start your bike in gear. But, I have been starting every bike I have ever owned in 55 years of riding and I have yet to see any damage. I have often wondered how many people start their cages by putting them into neutral first or how many put their bikes into neutral when coming up to a stop light. Those were rhetorical questions as I really don't give a rat's hind quarters what others do or don't do. Ride more & worry less is my motto.

When warm,  I’ve no problem with it.  When cold,  I’ll refrain.  Had I not been paying attention, I could have ruined my day in my small garage.   Agree with your motto for the most part,  but knowing my bike is what gives me my comfort when taking long trips.

« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 07:11:06 AM by Vision »

Offline havenolife

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Re: Cold starting issues
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2019, 04:41:13 AM »
you have a cracked or warped intake manifold problem is a possibility Harley knows about it and just turned loose of a brand new screamin eagle replacement part number 27300167 retail is $151.96 so you can replace it on your dime its a known problem or HD would not make one p.s. and the no start only happens when its cold outside I think around 25 degrees or lees     
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Offline Vision

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Re: Cold starting issues
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2019, 08:44:22 AM »
Thanks Havenolife. I believe the 64mm SE throttle body has an aluminum manifold vs the Composite plastic on the Stock TB. Starts a bit easier with the new Thundermax firmware in colder temps, but not perfect and I donít have any issues while riding whatsoever.    Do you think that would still apply to my case?