Author Topic: Rusty cylinders  (Read 693 times)

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Offline BVHOG

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Rusty cylinders
« on: April 15, 2019, 07:42:44 AM »
Seems the last two seasons I have been seeing signs of rust in cylinders, usually areas of old rust that have been scraped off from the rings and show up as dark areas in the cylinders. Very seldom did I see this years ago and it's in over 50 percent of the bikes I tear down now. Looks like rust from storage but why more now than ever?  Have any of you other builders seen this?
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Offline dave brode

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Re: Rusty cylinders
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2019, 08:04:42 AM »
Hydroscopic E10 gas?

Offline kd

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Re: Rusty cylinders
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2019, 08:10:30 AM »
Chinese or re-pop steel liners?
KD

Offline BVHOG

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Re: Rusty cylinders
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2019, 08:54:40 AM »
Factory and S&S
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Offline rbabos

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Re: Rusty cylinders
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2019, 09:32:46 AM »
Factory and S&S
First thing I wonder is what oil was used and how long the old oil was left in the bike before you got it. Some oils do suck at corrosion protection especially with fuel dilution.
Ron

Offline remington007

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Re: Rusty cylinders
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2019, 10:09:14 AM »
Are these guys that run there bike "to warm it up" in the garage in the winter? I have seen rust issues like that also and these guys were doing that.

Offline wfolarry

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Re: Rusty cylinders
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2019, 10:13:39 AM »
It's from the cheap gas.

Offline sfmichael

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Re: Rusty cylinders
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2019, 10:22:37 AM »
It's from the cheap gas.

That's about all I could think of that would cause it   :soda:
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Offline rbabos

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Re: Rusty cylinders
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2019, 10:50:14 AM »
Are these guys that run there bike "to warm it up" in the garage in the winter? I have seen rust issues like that also and these guys were doing that.
That would be number 1 reason in my book. Lot's of moisture pumped into the oil that way. Worst damn thing you can do to an engine.
Ron

Offline GMR-PERFORMANCE

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Re: Rusty cylinders
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2019, 06:11:28 AM »
Yes bob I see it on many in fact one that was a newer 2019 with like 9 miles on the clock .. I pulled complete drive train out  for pineapple cut and new powder coat, cylinders had dark stains and surface rust. I figured well no real heat in the engine etc but I see it on bikes with a few thousand as well . 
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Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: Rusty cylinders
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2019, 06:33:07 AM »
So as a prevention fog the motor with CRC Engine Stor before putting it down for storage.

Offline GMR-PERFORMANCE

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Re: Rusty cylinders
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2019, 06:34:37 AM »
I do not think that is it they are new some are ridden every day . A bike comes in that the guy just road 4 hours to get here . I pulled it down the next day and there is rust on the cylinder wall  :scratch:
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Offline BVHOG

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Re: Rusty cylinders
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2019, 06:46:31 AM »
My thoughts are what Larry suggested, has to be something as the last two seasons here I have seen more than half that had some indication of rust areas and the years before almost never.
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Offline kd

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Re: Rusty cylinders
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2019, 07:23:16 AM »
As I follow this conversation I can't help thinking this is a result of the quality of the steel used. The oils we use and the ambient influences both daily and in storage are not similarly effecting the Shovel, evo, TC etc. barrels.  (It would be interesting to know if other manufacturers are experiencing this and where they source their materials from.)

I think it's the steel. The steel must be recycled base material.  Reconstituted ferrous metal from recycled material has to contain some oxides.  I imagine it is next to impossible to remove all of it, at least economically.  If you recall, the automotive industry has been through this before.  Two notable and well known incidences would be the early 70's Ford pickups and the Toyota Tacoma's produced in the 80's.  Their bodies were rust infested and the steel was traced to being recycled stock.

Harley cylinders and liners have been produced for years / decades without this issue showing up.  The only thing I see different is the new design in the engine (M8) where it is occurring and the fact that the lowest tender for materials usually gets accepted now.  The only other "new" cylinder design that the MOCO is using beside the M8 is the "drop in" high grade steel versions.  There doesn't seem to be any reports of issues with them and it may be because they are so high grade that the process of making the steel purges the contaminants. 

I believe in the KISS aspect of discovery and that means investigate the material first especially when the issue is only effecting the latest M8 design.  Something must have changed in the materials and not the oil, gas, storage methods (or the "warm ups" while in storage) that the other previous versions also get exposed to, because the super low time "new" engines appear to be effected too.

My 2 cents  :teeth:
« Last Edit: April 19, 2019, 07:32:50 AM by kd »
KD

Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: Rusty cylinders
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2019, 07:51:40 AM »
This is about alcohol and derivatives in gas. Alcohol is hydrophilic. It attracts water. Short trips and cool oil not allowing moisture to be released compounds the issues.

Offline kd

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Re: Rusty cylinders
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2019, 08:07:10 AM »
This is about alcohol and derivatives in gas. Alcohol is hydrophilic. It attracts water. Short trips and cool oil not allowing moisture to be released compounds the issues.


I most certainly don't have the exposure that you do.  I do however understand the effects of corn in the gas.  Even the differences between methyl hydrate and isopropyl.  Are you are seeing the same effects in TC and Evo barrels? 
KD

Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: Rusty cylinders
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2019, 08:11:37 AM »
I had a set of shovels the other day in here rusted bad and was pumping oil, almost new rebuild. A shame, good work, cylinders were straight and true. Was deeply pitted. I think it can happen to all of them. I learned the Engine Stor trick from marine guys. It helps. A shot in the throttle at the end of the season till it kills the motor.

Offline doubletrouble

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Re: Rusty cylinders
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2019, 08:18:43 AM »
Low tension rings dont help either