Author Topic: Help with Dyno tune and spark advance tables  (Read 1334 times)

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Offline harleytuner

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Re: Help with Dyno tune and spark advance tables
« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2019, 02:08:05 PM »
Roeders has a great reputation. From my research one of the best tuners they had used for many years was outstanding. This tuner left the area to open his own shop out of state a couple of years ago I believe. He posts somewhat frequently online. In my research I found these comments from him about the need to tune timing.

Those quotes are from me.  The fuel quality available to us doesn't allow a tuner to get nearly aggressive with the ignition tables as we used to.  You said they started with a starter MAP from FM, I'd venture to say that that MAP had the ignition tables pretty close so Jake either didn't feel they needed changed or changed them and ended up right where they were.  With the fuel quality and the cooler than normal weather you've been having he couldn't optimize the ignition tables without the risk of having spark knock when the weather gets hot.  How does the bike run? 

I can guarantee that George Cares,  if he gave you the impression he could "care less" he really must have had something on his mind.   I've never seen him be anything but completely professional with his customers.  Even though I don't work there anymore, that shop and everybody there mean the world to me.  I'll reach out to Jake and ask him about the tune.
Enjoying the hell out of my "hotted" up twincam

Offline BadHabit

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Re: Help with Dyno tune and spark advance tables
« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2019, 03:20:09 PM »
For me it's hard to After seeing several before and after successful dyno tunes (that show the delta in the spark advance tables)in the last few it's hard to believe they actually WORKED all the areas of the spark table and only changed those few areas dealing with starting. Fuel Moto themselves said those numbers are just in the ballpark and the only way to set them properly for each individual motor is to dyno tune. What are the chances the "ballpark" numbers are spot on? As far as how it rides because of the weather I've only gotten approx 100mi to and from work. It seems noticeably better in most areas except a rough idle over the canned map along with a very annoying slight miss when under very light load/throttle..thing is I paid for the afr, exhaust AND timing to be tuned on a dyno for the bike to run its BEST not just better... With all of that being said Your input/help is VERY much appreciated. As a final note it seems they only want the customer to deal with the service mgr instead of the tuner which makes communicating issues and concerns with the tune a little difficult.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2019, 03:33:46 PM by BadHabit »

Offline harleytuner

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Re: Help with Dyno tune and spark advance tables
« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2019, 03:51:44 PM »
For me it's hard to After seeing several before and after successful dyno tunes (that show the delta in the spark advance tables)in the last few it's hard to believe they actually WORKED all the areas of the spark table and only changed those few areas dealing with starting. Fuel Moto themselves said those numbers are just in the ballpark and the only way to set them properly for each individual motor is to dyno tune. What are the chances the "ballpark" numbers are spot on? As far as how it rides because of the weather I've only gotten approx 100mi to and from work. It seems noticeably better in most areas except a rough idle over the canned map along with a very annoying slight miss when under very light load/throttle..thing is I paid for the afr, exhaust AND timing to be tuned on a dyno for the engines needs and wants not just an getting the afr close. Would run files show the tuning they did? With all of that being said Your input/help is VERY much appreciated. As a final note it seems they only want the customer to deal with the service mgr instead of the tuner which makes communicating issues and concerns with the tune a little difficult.

I hear what your saying,  I'll see if i can get ahold of Jake, I'm not going to bug him on his day off but I'll talk with him Tues.  Like i was saying before,  a few years back we were able to get pretty aggressive with the ignition tables and not have to worry about it. With fuel quality like it is changed things up quit a bit.  Now we have to tune more in a "safe" area to allow for different fuel and climate.   Gas just isn't what it used to be. If I tune a bike in the Spring when it's cooler out and dial in the timing for max power there's a really good chance it'll have spark knock on a hot day.  A good tune doesn't necessarily have you leaving the shop with every 10th of a HP the tuner can squeeze out of it, it's having you leave the shop with a bike that will run good in all conditions.  Fuel changes from region to region as well, I've had bikes ride in for a tune from another state just to top off before they drop it off, problem is now it's being tuned on the fuel that is in my area not where they will be doing the majority of their riding.  We also get into winter and summer blends, etc. Tuning bikes for street applications versus race applications is to different things anymore.  Having the best of both worlds just isn't viable.  Best way to optimize timing tables is on a hot miserable day, time of year in Ohio can be real difficult.   It's really a no win for the shop, either you're leaving upset because you don't think you got what you paid for or your upset in August when your getting spark knock.  I'll talk with Jake, he hasn't been tuning for a real long time but he's very sharp and from what I saw when I was still there,  he had a lot of potential.  I haven't been on this forum in over a year but this post was brought to my attention and I felt compelled to come back.  Once this thread runs its course, whatever the outcome, I'll leave it again.  But until then I'll see what I can find out.  I know Roeders doesn't do anything on the forums so they won't see this.   
Enjoying the hell out of my "hotted" up twincam

Offline harleytuner

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Re: Help with Dyno tune and spark advance tables
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2019, 05:07:49 PM »
If you want to take a log you can send it to me and I'll take a look.  chad@wideopencycles.net

The last full year I worked at Roeders I did 364 full tunes,  you can do the math and see how much time it would take if I talked to every customer for just 10 minutes.   I get that it sucks to talk to a service manager that doesn't fully understand what all goes on during a tune, but at a shop that is as busy as they are it's the only way it can be run efficiently.

Enjoying the hell out of my "hotted" up twincam

Offline 98fxstc

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Re: Help with Dyno tune and spark advance tables
« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2019, 05:56:20 PM »
If you want to take a log you can send it to me and I'll take a look.  chad@wideopencycles.net

The last full year I worked at Roeders I did 364 full tunes,  you can do the math and see how much time it would take if I talked to every customer for just 10 minutes.   I get that it sucks to talk to a service manager that doesn't fully understand what all goes on during a tune, but at a shop that is as busy as they are it's the only way it can be run efficiently.

 :up: :up: :up:
agree 100% with this


Offline Herko

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Re: Help with Dyno tune and spark advance tables
« Reply #30 on: May 13, 2019, 05:46:53 AM »
IME, the ideal timing map is not derived via pushing the timing up to the point of uncle (spark knock, reported or actual) at a given operational parameter and then backing off a few degrees. Yes, these types of tools are available in some of the popular tuning software suites and can be a step in the right direction.
But, other testing and development that I’ve done individually or jointly showed optimal spark advance timing maps come from different strategies and thought processes. The thought processes include understanding the characteristics of these particular IC power plants, their application, environment, and load flow based on how they are typically operated.

Also worth noting IMO, the average tuner can make a pretty WOT graph for posting, impressing, bragging rights or whatever.
However, the real work, applied knowledge and expertise goes in to the abundance of operational parameters that precede WOT…where we spend 95+ percent of the time operating. Many tuners might say they tune all of the needed parameters. But, when it comes to having a full working knowledge of the main tuning tables from a dynamic perspective and how the ancillary tables correspond…this can be a different story.

Cheers
Considering a power upgrade?
First and foremost, focus on your tuning plan.

Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: Help with Dyno tune and spark advance tables
« Reply #31 on: May 13, 2019, 06:00:54 AM »
 :up: :up:
Perfect

Offline BadHabit

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Re: Help with Dyno tune and spark advance tables
« Reply #32 on: May 13, 2019, 07:44:26 AM »
Well the more I read the more it seems that the tuners knowledge, tools available as well as fuel quality available make a big difference in how much the timing can adjusted. Thing is I also believe most times you can adjust the timing in small increments and achieve small improvements. The only way to know this is to tune the timing tables. The bottom line is they said in writing they would tune the tables. So did they or not. Hopefully this is just a misunderstanding and they will alleviate my concerns and help fix the issues I might have.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 08:05:52 AM by BadHabit »

Offline lonewolf

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Re: Help with Dyno tune and spark advance tables
« Reply #33 on: May 13, 2019, 02:02:27 PM »
Thing is I also believe most times you can adjust the timing in small increments and achieve small improvements.
How do you measure those?

Offline BadHabit

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Re: Help with Dyno tune and spark advance tables
« Reply #34 on: May 13, 2019, 02:20:51 PM »
A dyno

Offline Mirrmu

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Re: Help with Dyno tune and spark advance tables
« Reply #35 on: May 13, 2019, 02:47:58 PM »
Think you have your answer from Roeder in this.

What i am getting from this is that Fuelmoto make very good tunes. Give the dyno the flick and stick with a great company.


Those quotes are from me.  The fuel quality available to us doesn't allow a tuner to get nearly aggressive with the ignition tables as we used to.  You said they started with a starter MAP from FM, I'd venture to say that that MAP had the ignition tables pretty close so Jake either didn't feel they needed changed or changed them and ended up right where they were.  With the fuel quality and the cooler than normal weather you've been having he couldn't optimize the ignition tables without the risk of having spark knock when the weather gets hot.  How does the bike run? 

I can guarantee that George Cares,  if he gave you the impression he could "care less" he really must have had something on his mind.   I've never seen him be anything but completely professional with his customers.  Even though I don't work there anymore, that shop and everybody there mean the world to me.  I'll reach out to Jake and ask him about the tune.

Offline BadHabit

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More not less exhaust discs= MORE tq?
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2019, 04:51:41 PM »
Still looking at the tune I got from roeders  Been confused on how many discs they actually ended up using and have been talking to the tuner. He said the bike made its most power with 14 discs but at 2450 rpms 15 discs made 10 more hp and 5 more tq...So they ended up tuning the final tune with 15...I thought less discs= more tq and less top end yet on my build it was backwards...Can someone help explain why?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 05:13:25 PM by BadHabit »

Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: Help with Dyno tune and spark advance tables
« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2019, 07:55:01 AM »
Consider this. You have a functioning exhaust port now. It has much increased low lift flow. The cam has an additional 15 degrees duration over the intake and it does not need that and it is not liking it at low speed. Generic rules of added discs and subtracting go out the door. We still have a relatively low compression motor that would love to have a 240deg exhaust lobe on 110CL. The disc and cap exhaust compounds the issue and the added overlap becomes a source of low speed reversion.

Online Hossamania

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Re: Help with Dyno tune and spark advance tables
« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2019, 08:03:03 AM »
t this point you have a couple options. Run it, or take it to another tuner.
No shirt, no shoes, and I still get service. Why?
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Offline BadHabit

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Re: Help with Dyno tune and spark advance tables
« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2019, 08:04:25 AM »
Consider this. You have a functioning exhaust port now. It has much increased low lift flow. The cam has an additional 15 degrees duration over the intake and it does not need that and it is not liking it at low speed. Generic rules of added discs and subtracting go out the door. We still have a relatively low compression motor that would love to have a 240deg exhaust lobe on 110CL. The disc and cap exhaust compounds the issue and the added overlap becomes a source of low speed reversion.

Don you should have been a science or math teacher...you are really able to explain things.. Thanks

Offline stogieluvr60

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Re: Help with Dyno tune and spark advance tables
« Reply #40 on: June 10, 2019, 11:32:23 AM »
Roeders has a great reputation. From my research one of the best tuners they had used for many years was outstanding. This tuner left the area to open his own shop out of state a couple of years ago I believe. He posts somewhat frequently online. In my research I found these comments from him about the need to tune timing.
That is true...but for health reasons he has since left the business to pursue other avenues...our loss for sure but his gain.

Offline jjdalynh

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Re: Help with Dyno tune and spark advance tables
« Reply #41 on: June 13, 2019, 07:45:58 AM »
Roeders has a great reputation. From my research one of the best tuners they had used for many years was outstanding. This tuner left the area to open his own shop out of state a couple of years ago I believe. He posts somewhat frequently online. In my research I found these comments from him about the need to tune timing.
That is true...but for health reasons he has since left the business to pursue other avenues...our loss for sure but his gain.

yep, I got Chad's dyno and it's been moved up to New England.  Great guy.  I'm sure he'll be missed in our community.

Offline 98fxstc

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Re: Help with Dyno tune and spark advance tables
« Reply #42 on: June 13, 2019, 10:48:19 PM »
Been around a bit that dyno
I think Chad bought it from WurkTruk

Offline Hilly13

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Re: Help with Dyno tune and spark advance tables
« Reply #43 on: June 13, 2019, 10:51:51 PM »
Been around a bit that dyno
I think Chad bought it from WurkTruk
I miss John, he always tried to help people, a good man.
Just because its said don't make it so

Offline jjdalynh

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Re: Help with Dyno tune and spark advance tables
« Reply #44 on: June 15, 2019, 12:59:01 PM »
i know it's done a lot of bikes.