Author Topic: Another oil question  (Read 701 times)

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Offline FTBY55

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Another oil question
« on: June 07, 2019, 09:11:04 AM »
Temperatures here in AZ already in the triple digits. Was looking at oils and saw that Amsoil has a straight 60 WT Full synthetic but it does not say recommended for EVO's.
I want a bit more protection then the 20-50 as at idle my gauge is bottoming out. No light coming on and I have flow. What are you high temperature riders using?

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Another oil question
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2019, 10:12:35 AM »
When I lived in AZ I used Redline 20w60. Now back in Ohio again I still use Redline 20w60.

Find any quality 20w60 synthetic oil.
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Offline thumper 823

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Re: Another oil question
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2019, 10:13:17 AM »
I will tell you all I know in about 3 sentences
Pour point s (viscosity) has very little to do with protection.
It is that simple.
Read the charts and you will find the pour point all the same after 160 deg.
Heavy viscosities is old school thinking.
the AMSOIL 20/50   (or most any other top brands) is just fine -read the specs.

Please take the time and look up the stuff (dont take my words for it) or you will get regurgitated vomit from people that are clueless again and again.

If you start a google search some night and spend an hour for about 5 nights you will be a hell of a lot smarter then most on here repeating the BS from a 100 years ago.
I do ask -
please don't belive me-make the knowledge your own, you will fell enlightened!
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Offline Mule

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Re: Another oil question
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2019, 10:21:09 AM »
I use Red line 20-60W as well There is a noticeable difference in the extreme heat.

Offline Burnout

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Re: Another oil question
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2019, 10:32:49 AM »
An oil cooler!

Because if you switch to 60w you will loose the low temp flow characteristics of the 20-50.
This is critical for startup oiling.
60w is recommended for ambient temps over 80° but how doe you run at night and what about morning starts.
A cooler negates all those issues allowing you to run 20-50.

I have an 87 FXR that still has the original standard bore pistons and untouched heads and a huge number of miles (I'd guess over 100k),
driven like I stole it, beaten like an ugly stepchild and shows no signs of giving up.
This motor has been run through the Calif central valley in 100°+ temps at near full throttle for consecutive tanks of fuel.
I never let my oil get black, If my rear tire lasts 6k miles (2 oil changes) I am pleased. (My inner child loves burnouts)
It has more miles with the front wheel in the air than many put on their bikes in a year!
My secret is HD 20-50 "dinosaur" oil (chosen because the motor runs quietest with this oil) and an oil cooler and frequent oil changes.

I also don't buy into the synthetic oil cost because our machines all fall under extreme service duty parameters.
You can't do extended oil changes unless you are running cross country back to back.
The need for oil changes has to do with contaminants (blow by and unburned fuel) from larger clearances required by air/oil cooled motors.
Frequent short stops where it is not run long enough to purge contaminants from the oil tank don't help either.
They don't call me Ironhead Rick just because I'm "hard headed"

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Another oil question
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2019, 11:52:41 AM »
An oil cooler helps, it helps even more for free-flowing synthetics.
that's the advantage to them.
 The early Evo is blessed, when the FI arrived and the 14.5 is strictly adhered to
temps can get hot!
I run to Sturgis and back no trailer.
 Ten  to one  CR
It never gets hot, even flat footing for 45 min through twn.
This year I bumped it a bit more ..see what I can get away with.
In the end, it is walking a precipice asking people that have no more knowledge they you about
oils and chemistries.

Most on here could not tell you about
 pour point index
shear
PSI ratings
The different bearing testing machines and why some are called one arm bandits.
The NEW information on zink.
Long fiber / short fiber (grease)
I don't recommend oils nor do I sell them.
However, if you buy from the top 5 brands you will be better then ok.
I doubt that any will blow your engine up.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline FTBY55

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Re: Another oil question
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2019, 10:25:18 PM »
Thanks all,

Running Mobil 1 20-50 right now and the temperature on the oil tank dipstick seldom passes 210 usually around 200. I do run at 3500-4000 rpm for a 30 mile run each way daily. Perhaps the 20-60 would be an option.

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Another oil question
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2019, 01:51:12 AM »
180 /190 is minimum for you modern day oils to work right.

Years and years ago Porsche allowed short interval to 250 deg with mag cases.!

You should try your different formulas of oils -I will bet the 20/50 will give you a lower temp in the end.
Carry on.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline JW113

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Re: Another oil question
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2019, 08:49:19 AM »
200-210? You have no worries at all, mate. When it gets north of 260, then worry. Flickering light at idle in hot weather is perfectly normal.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Another oil question
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2019, 09:22:53 AM »
Most people should understand the pressure limitation of the chosen brand.
The oil I use is good for over a 100,ooo lbs
A huge shear factor.
EZ poor points both ends.
A proper menu of additives.
 There are a lot of oils on the market not any good after 70,000 lbs (not very good)
I always encourage people to read objective reports.
You will sleep better at night.
As I said, asking people here on the internets that are no more informed then you are a waste of anyone's time.
  If anyone spends just a little energy getting the education you will not be sucked into oil wars.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline JW113

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Re: Another oil question
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2019, 10:40:59 AM »
I sure would like somebody to show me conclusive evidence that ANY type of modern oil in a Harley-Davidson lead to engine damage. I think reality is that oil couldn't have it easier in an HD, as opposed to, say, a long hual Diesel big rig. Which, I might add, doesn't see oil changes for 25,000 to 50,000 miles. Can you even imagine the pressure on oil in the plain bearings of 500HP supercharged Diesel? Or how hot the piston crowns get, which are cooled by oil by the way. HD, with all roller bearings and the only place that's not is the piston rings and rocker arm tips only needs a little oil spashed around to keep the surfaces wet. Blows my mind how much HD owners fret about oil.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Another oil question
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2019, 11:47:46 PM »
Just for discussion-and no bone to pick.
First, you are right -I doubt ANY oil is going to blow your HD up!
I used to own a few big rigs and pretty educated in their nature-
Being like you, I used to think oil for a big diesel had to be better!
Seems logical.
I would even put it in my car engine.
Guess what?
DONT !
It is not as good. (well except for one brand )
Now as I say I am not an oil engineer but I have spent a LOT of time in the books.
Most of us only know what we have read and study,  we don't have time to prove everything.
The Books say they make the diesel engine oil to lesser  standards and quality as there is So much oil in a big rig  (about 12 gallons)
So much oil that it becomes too expensive to sell it !  Or  To change it!
Those are the words from the manufactures.
Not mine
To prove the point -look up the pressure ratings for diesel engine oils
They run about 60,000 lbs!
That is a very low figure.
Little gas engines want a min of about 75,000 lbs!
Most diesel oils run about  15,000 lbs under anything a little car engine demands.
A diesel gets away with it because of the huge bearings and larger surfaces.
Only one engine oil out there  (afaik) has a rating for little engines and big ones with a rating over a 100,000 lbs .
I encourage you to look it up.
Most other gas engine oils are somewhat less the 80,000.
And of course, the diesel engine oils a lot less.
PS -I don't sell oils.
One day I got up and decided I had had it with all the BS on the net and started my own study.
I continue it to this day.
The charts are pretty EZ to read.
I do recommend everyone to look up the specs on at least their favorite oil and compare it to a few other brands.
This will become interesting to you.
Don't take my word for it.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline Hossamania

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Re: Another oil question
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2019, 04:25:53 AM »
I buy name brand oils, change them fairly often (not over so except the first couple on a new motor) and trust that I will be fine. So far, so good, and I put my motors to the test.
The exception to name brand oils is when I've had motors that burned oil and then just bought the absolute cheapest stuff on the shelf. (No HD motors have fallen into that category yet.) Except, I will not use Pennzoil. Back in the late 70's I used it in my old Ford, what a mess. It had a lot of parafin wax in it, and it coated and plugged everything in that motor. The recipe may have changed, but I'll never know.
No shirt, no shoes, and I still get service. Why?
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Offline thumper 823

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Re: Another oil question
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2019, 03:35:17 PM »
Back in the day- it was normal to pull a valve cover and find 3inchs deep goo.
It was double yuk.
This is just not ever found anymore.  thankfully.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline screem

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Re: Another oil question
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2019, 04:52:48 PM »
i get a big kick out of the oil experts, that spend researching oils and have opinions and beliefs, and then the others that have angst over what type, what brand, what exact weight they need.
    one of my bikes is an '95 Evo with a small cam(ev27) S&S carb and set of 40" shotgun drag pipes and no oil cooler .. i run whatever decent name brand 20w-50 is on sale. I live in South West Florida and ride most of the summer in 95 degree heat, and have never had overheating or any kind of failure due to oil. As far as filters go, i have a local indy shop and he sells Drags filters.
     The one thing i do, is keep fairly fresh oil in my bikes at time, rarely do i run oil and filters past 2500 miles. That being said...whatever floats your boat

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Another oil question
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2019, 08:33:28 PM »
Perhaps you are passively aggressively calling me an expert?
  I am no expert but I do know how to read.
I do not want to depend on the internet armchair experts that have no more information then I do.
In fact most the time,  less.
It is better to wallow in ignorance?
Or advance to the problem and solve it?
As for me, I don't like people making decisions I am fully capable of.
To come to terms with the subject at hand makes one sleep better.
The beauty of oil conversations is all the information is right here at anyone's fingertips.
Lead, or be led.
Choose one.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline FSG

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Re: Another oil question
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2019, 10:02:14 PM »
Quote
rarely do i run oil and filters past 2500 miles

now IMO that's a waste of resources but as you said

Quote
whatever floats your boat

Offline PoorUB

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Re: Another oil question
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2019, 02:03:40 PM »
 :agree:
Take the time and send your "used" oil to Blackstone.  I have sent in several oil samples out of my Harley  with  7,000-8,000 miles on and every one has come back saying run it 2,000 more and send in a another sample.
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Another oil question
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2019, 05:40:54 AM »
Some thoughts-you are allowed to disagree-
To get Oil samples to actually work you should do one "right now" as this gives the lab a baseline to work from.
That is what they will tell you right up front.
Then the engine demise can be monitored over time.
there should be no sudden spikes.

Next- to draw an oil sample from a diesel truck (about 11 to 12 gallons ) is prudent and good business practice as an oil change
is expansive.
The 30 dollar charge per sample for a big diesel is peanuts and good business practice (plus just another write off. )
To do an oil sample on the two-wheelers for 30 bucks is near not worth it.
For that amount of monies, it cost, about 1/2 an oil change,  depending on what oil religion you subscribe to it is questionable.
If your engine is making noises and you send in a sample ..you are taking it apart anyway.
A very good caveman way is always to cut the old filter apart and check the folds.
 Some things to think about-
What blows on an HD engine?
Steel parts can be caught with a good mag plug .
Neodymium mags  have been epoxied in several places to my Evo engine
One place is under the cam chest, to the oil plug etc.


D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline PoorUB

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Re: Another oil question
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2019, 10:07:52 AM »
You don't think Blackstone has a baseline of various oils to work  from? Also thier report shows min/max/averages  for different engine types. If they have tested oil for a thousand Twin Cams they will have a pretty good idea what particulate content is high, low or averge.

I will agree that regular oil samples will give a good indication of what is going on with an engine but an occasional oil sample will tell you oil quality and amount  of contaminants at that time. I was more concerned of the general condition  of the oil after extended oil changes and it convinced me that we change oil way to soon. As long as the additives are intact, the oil  viscosity is good and contaminants are low, why change the oil?
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Another oil question
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2019, 10:12:05 AM »
You don't think Blackstone has a baseline of various oils to work  from? Also thier report shows min/max/averages  for different engine types. If they have tested oil for a thousand Twin Cams they will have a pretty good idea what particulate content is high, low or averge.

I will agree that regular oil samples will give a good indication of what is going on with an engine but an occasional oil sample will tell you oil quality and amount of contaminants at that time. I was more concerned of the general condition  of the oil after extended oil changes and it convinced me that we change oil way to soon. As long as the additives are intact, the oil  viscosity is good and contaminants are low, why change the oil?

They ask for a sample as soon as you get the engine running, add to the fleet, etc.
The baseline is NOT for the oil, but rather a look at what your oil looks like in that engine.
When something starts going south the reference point is/was the baseline.
  To abstractly send in an oil sample is truly not utilizing how it works.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline PoorUB

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Re: Another oil question
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2019, 05:21:16 AM »
Trust me, I know how it works. I went through a few hour class on oil testing years back. The class was given by a rep from one of the testing labs. Tons of info.
If you continue to test an engine over it's life you can get an idea when something is starting to fail,or the engine has reached the end because it is simply worn out.

They also have a good Idea what is normal for a particular engine series and know what is normal for that engine so a one time oil sample can tell if it is normal for that engine.

They also test just the general condition of the oil and can tell if the oil additives are depleted , if the viscosity is good or not.

So there is value in a one time old sample.
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Offline Phu Cat

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Re: Another oil question
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2019, 12:17:32 PM »
Why do diesels last longer than gaso engines?One reason is they’re built heavier and run hotter due to the fuel they burn which results in oil that doesn’t become fouled with moisture.  Most of us make short trips that result in our oil not getting hot enough to become dehydrated.

PC
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Offline Burnout

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Re: Another oil question
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2019, 12:42:42 PM »
Diesels run cooler not hotter than gas.
Most diesels hold many times more oil than a gas motor.
Diesels run on the lean side so most all the fuel is burned.
They don't call me Ironhead Rick just because I'm "hard headed"

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Another oil question
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2019, 01:05:29 PM »
A couple of things -
Diesel  burns oil and has dierect injection.
They are more efficient than gas pots and need less radiator per cube.
Does this have anything to do with oil change intervals?
IDK .
Back in the dino days, oil was changed every 10 K in a big rig.
Now with syn and oil analysis 20K 30K  is doable
 Our little HD engines ...Hmmm  I go 5k  on fairly expensive oil.
Sturgis and back a little more.

A 12 L Detroit is 770 cube or so  , 400 Hp all day long and massive TQ !  LIKE 1500 LBS
They are massively built as most types of diesel are.
They turn a slow RPM  most the pwr is generated 1200 to 1600 RPM, all most an idle compared to a gaser.
Things to ponder.
 

 
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.