Author Topic: Roller Rockers???? S&S 560S cam 68 Slabside build  (Read 841 times)

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Offline Reddog74usa

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Roller Rockers???? S&S 560S cam 68 Slabside build
« on: August 25, 2019, 03:47:41 PM »
Presently doing a build on a stock looking 68 FLH 88 incher and thinking about running the S&S 560S cam. Would roller rockers be worth the expense or needed with a cam like this? CR is 9.5-1 or is there a better cam with less lift for this bike? Riding style is 80 MPH on the slab and then twisties thru the rocky mountains and canyons with some good climbs over the mountain passes. Carb choices are from a cv, mik or S&S E with a stock 2-1 or true duals. Just lookin for a chrisp running slabside.
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Offline guppymech

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Re: Roller Rockers???? S&S 560S cam 68 Slabside build
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2019, 07:57:07 AM »
What elevation do you ride at in Colorado?  S&S no doubt makes compression recommendations based on sea level conditions.  Living at 670 feet elev in Illinois I've never had to compensate for the lack of air at 5K feet but it's something to think about when matching a cam and compression ratio.
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Offline Reddog74usa

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Re: Roller Rockers???? S&S 560S cam 68 Slabside build
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2019, 08:39:30 AM »
Locally I'm at 4700 feet but ride over 12K foot passes.
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Offline 76shuvlinoff

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Re: Roller Rockers???? S&S 560S cam 68 Slabside build
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2019, 01:46:13 PM »
I ran the 560 S&S with rollers but I can't swear it needed them. I would suggest the CV for widely varying elevations though.   If you are running an electronic sparker do you have a VOES?  I run my shovel between the cornfields on the flatland and don't seem to need one.  You might want to look into it.
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Offline Reddog74usa

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Re: Roller Rockers???? S&S 560S cam 68 Slabside build
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2019, 02:29:54 PM »
Hey Mark, how did you like the 560 in your shovel?
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Offline 76shuvlinoff

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Re: Roller Rockers???? S&S 560S cam 68 Slabside build
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2019, 03:08:36 AM »
Hey Mark, how did you like the 560 in your shovel?

 It came in my 93" S&S "HC" mill (should've mentioned that but the mind is a terrible thing and that was in 04) It might be too much for stockish?  I had it paired up with an E carb I don't recall a lot of specifics except that combination with a Thunderheader trounced a couple buddies evos. Sure THAT I remember  :teeth:. That was about 4 cams back and I sold it.

Tried an Andrews B.  I really wanted to try a Leineweber (L51) but they were like 6 months out at the time so I bought an Leineweber L3 might've been an L3S, LS3? I would need to look at their shovel cam page to remember. Sold that too because it pushed my  93's cyl pressure too high, like 210-215 psi.  I ended up with an Andrews 7, a 40mm CV carb. 

I highly recommend the 40mm but of course I then installed a 44mm....  and swore off further screwing with it..... :wink:

 I really should've written this stuff down  :embarrassed:
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Offline a_disalvo

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Re: Roller Rockers???? S&S 560S cam 68 Slabside build
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2019, 06:54:07 AM »
Roller rockers will definitely help the wear on the rear exhaust valve, a design flaw that has taken out many Harley heads. I run a Crane 308B in  my 98" shovel. Frank

Offline Reddog74usa

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Re: Roller Rockers???? S&S 560S cam 68 Slabside build
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2019, 09:44:07 AM »
Keep in mind this is a genny shovel. Not many cam choices on these models.
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Offline BUGLET

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Re: Roller Rockers???? S&S 560S cam 68 Slabside build
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2019, 01:02:28 PM »
   You can use the later cams and turn down the ignition side to fit the early can cover. Done quite a few over the years with no problems. And switch the gears if you have to.

Offline Reddog74usa

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Re: Roller Rockers???? S&S 560S cam 68 Slabside build
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2019, 05:48:18 PM »
 :beer: :up: Never knew anyone that turned down the iggy end to see how it worked out. Thanks fer sharing. Know anyone that does it in case I need one done? Might look at that Mackie 530 if I can get the cam turned to work with my genny shovel.
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Offline BUGLET

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Re: Roller Rockers???? S&S 560S cam 68 Slabside build
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2019, 06:57:46 AM »
   Any good machine shop should be able to handle it or someone with a lathe. Its no that hard to do.

Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: Roller Rockers???? S&S 560S cam 68 Slabside build
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2019, 07:26:05 AM »
Consider a different cam, shorter duration and ~.5 lift. Andrews J or S&S 450S. The elevation will drop torque so always move to a shorter cam. CV carb on a pressed flange adapter. Nose cone ignition Crane / S&S HI4. No VOES needed.

Offline Reddog74usa

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Re: Roller Rockers???? S&S 560S cam 68 Slabside build
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2019, 07:50:45 AM »
Even though the heads are set up for the S&S 560S cam I'm not against going to a different cam to move the power down lower but wouldn't a J make it ping with 9 1/2 CR? It's a genny shovel so no nose cone iggy and I'm not spending the money on the cam case gears to reverse the direction of the timer to use a cone iggy as it is way to much money. I'll tune the timer with different springs for the weights. I do have an old Sifton 440, andrews B and a #3 cam I could try. Just lookin for a nice crisp running stock looking 68 Genny to run the canyons and ride the slab with as little PMS as possible. Was looking for more of a stock build but found the S&S wheels, rods and cylinders in it when I tore it down and am going with them since there already there.
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Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: Roller Rockers???? S&S 560S cam 68 Slabside build
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2019, 08:02:36 AM »
The stock ignition works.
It wont ping, you drop 25lb+ CCP at 4500 ^sea level due to a loss of static air pressure

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Roller Rockers???? S&S 560S cam 68 Slabside build
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2019, 09:14:06 AM »
I used a lot of the S&S 514 cams years back, in 80" to 93" motors. They have a wide power band due to the shorter timing, which gives a narrower lobe center, keeping the torque at mid and lower RPM's. The lift being 0.514" helps to broaden the torque. This is a very quiet cam too. Andrews #3 is the same cam. I'd use that one.   


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Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: Roller Rockers???? S&S 560S cam 68 Slabside build
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2019, 09:16:03 AM »
Good choices.
Reddog
30+ years ago I actually made a distributor housing so that I could test the points ignitions and recurve the advance on my Sun machine. Even in my industrial complex with two independent HD shops it was a dud, nobody cared. If the ignition mechanical advance was not stuck, good to go, was the consensus.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2019, 09:20:22 AM by HD Street Performance »

Offline Reddog74usa

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Re: Roller Rockers???? S&S 560S cam 68 Slabside build
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2019, 10:52:33 AM »
Thanks very much for the info. The 560S was suggested by a friend of mine however I'm not an upper rpm rider, especially on a genny Shovel. Not that I wouldn't take er up there from time to time but I prefer the power in the low to mid range for the type of riding I do.

 Also, I do know I can get away with a bit more timing at 4800 ft. elev. however I like to keep my bikes tuned to the point where I can do a ride to either coast with just a small jet change as I don't believe in running a bike with the most timing I can squeeze into it. Rather I like being somewhat conservative with it again, for a happier engine and less PMS with all the changes I see in elevation.

 One of my local rides takes me from 4800 ft. to 11000 Ft. going over the Grand Mesa and includes getting on the slab at 80 MPH and twisties thru the canyons along with traversing the Mesa and back down.

 I was just back east in June for several graduations of family members and just couldn't believe how damn good my TC powered RK ran at sea level with just a set of Andrews 48's and set of 06 heads. Felt like it was super charged LOL. My 03 Silverado H-D with the 496 BB and Allison trans really liked it :SM: :SM: :SM:

Am I correct in thinking I really don't need roller rockers if I go with the #3? This build is much more costly than I expected so if I don't really need them I'm not going to go that route and use a new set of oem stock rockers.

I'm trying my best to make this a good quality engine build with a balanced bottom end, new pistons, S&S oil pump, cam, headwork all from very experienced builders including being able to convince Dave at BMO to do up a set of Velva Touch lifters for Shovel or Pan oem oiling systems which from what he told me, are most likely the very last he is making for the Pan and Shovel oiling factory setup. There awesome lifters and very pricey however I think there worth the cost for a reliable build.

I wasn't aware of how much prices have gone up and how bad quality control has slipped from suppliers that we normally counted on for quality parts. That said I believe this is my last all out bike build as the cost of labor Ie. bottom ends, headwork etc. and quality parts have gotten so high it's no longer fun. I will say it was freakin awesome while it lasted and I damn sure made the most of it.  :chop:
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Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Roller Rockers???? S&S 560S cam 68 Slabside build
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2019, 11:22:42 AM »
I have run the 514 (#3) both with and without rollers. It's fine without them. The best thing for valve guide wear on Shovels is to replace the OEM guides with later model aftermarket guides. The HD cast guides left a lot to be desired, then after lead left the fuel, they wore fast. Also when guys cut the OEM guide lengths down for more lift and or valve seals, this doesn't help much either. 
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Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Roller Rockers???? S&S 560S cam 68 Slabside build
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2019, 12:00:59 PM »
Depending on which 0.440" Sifton you have, there are three that were made over the years. The first in the list, the 112, that was if I remember the Sifton Cobra. Made later to give a cam with more low and mid-range. They're ok, but I liked the 514 (#3) better.


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Offline Reddog74usa

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Re: Roller Rockers???? S&S 560S cam 68 Slabside build
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2019, 01:24:24 PM »
Thanks Ohio, Guids are all new and headwork done by Randy Long in Pa.very good tech with mad welding skills which is why the heads went to him. Someone hogged the plug hole out in the rear head to jam an old ford style spark plug in it instead of fixing the stripped out plug hole. I had him repair that and convert both plug holes to long reach. The old Sifton 440 I have is a genuine Sifton with 440 on the lobe and not one of the later versions with 108,109,112 and so fourth which I believe came in when Taiwan Teddy bought the name but don't know for sure. It may be nice to give it a try for old time sake but I think the Andrews #3 is where I'm going to start and most likely finish. Fact is, there's not a lot of options for genny Shovel cams out there today as demand for them has dropped dramatically which is understandable.

One thing I really like about the old scoots is you can buy a cam and tune the engine for half of what it costs for just a dyno session on a newer FI bike.  :bike:
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Offline Burnout

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Re: Roller Rockers???? S&S 560S cam 68 Slabside build
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2019, 03:56:10 PM »
Are you really at 9.5-1 ?

Seems to me standard shovel CR's were/are much less.

If you have high CR pistons and they are coming all the way to the top, maybe.

Because of the late intake closing on those cams you need some compression to make them work. In other words they are better suited to a big bore stroker (especially the cams with 50+)
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Offline Reddog74usa

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Re: Roller Rockers???? S&S 560S cam 68 Slabside build
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2019, 04:43:53 PM »
Pistons are KB forged 9.5-1
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Offline Burnout

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Re: Roller Rockers???? S&S 560S cam 68 Slabside build
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2019, 07:58:44 AM »
Many of the motors I have done the pistons don't come all the way up and I have to leave out base gaskets or trim the cylinders to get the piston to the top.
You may be missing as much as a full point of compression if the pistons don't make it to the top.
Next to displacement compression is the next holy grail, then you get into a balancing act between the cam and what kind of gas you can get for it.

An under cammed higher compression motor will often have starting and pinging problems due to cylinder pressures that are too high due to early intake closing.
A cam that closes the intake Too late for the amount of compression will do the opposite and you'll have a motor that is lazy and wants too much spark advance (which is bad in high temps).

My point is to not agonize over a cam choice while not optimizing the compression. Ignore me if you have.  :beer:
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Offline crock

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Re: Roller Rockers???? S&S 560S cam 68 Slabside build
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2019, 04:47:19 AM »
Many of the motors I have done the pistons don't come all the way up and I have to leave out base gaskets or trim the cylinders to get the piston to the top.
You may be missing as much as a full point of compression if the pistons don't make it to the top.
Next to displacement compression is the next holy grail, then you get into a balancing act between the cam and what kind of gas you can get for it.
Not to hijack the thread but with a hemi head motor with not squish area how will trimming the cylinder base will raise the static compression?
« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 05:18:05 AM by rigidthumper »
Crock

Offline kd

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Re: Roller Rockers???? S&S 560S cam 68 Slabside build
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2019, 06:07:57 AM »
The amount you trim off the base will drop the cylinder head down towards the piston at TDC to reduce the combustion chamber volume by the same amount.  That means higher compression.
KD