Camplate Failure

[98fxstc]

So,
You are going to use again a part you say is a failed part? Why would you do that?
You are then going to modify said part, despite thousands of these parts having zero issues, as is from factory?
I have run, and know of several of these personally with zero issues.

common sense to improve a part if you can
particularly after experiencing a failure

"I used S&S again because I know they are a reasonable product and I was just unlucky"
You used S&S because they are the performance leader for over 50 years, and no company is better (although for your specific part you could have run a Smith Bros.) Also, of course Jesel is numero uno here, but a race application. Either way S&S is still King of the street VTwin world .

the only bit that makes any sense
Yeah, next time I would go with Smith Bros.

the rest is just a ramble that misses the point

[Scotty]

I'm waiting for PeeWeeMorris to comment on this which he thinks is a internet fabrication designed to destroy S&S 

[turboprop]

I used to be the opinion that the problems reported online about the M8 were simply the 'sky is falling' mentality of online forums, but starting to think there are real issues with this new platform that even the aftermarket has yet to get in front of. Why anyone on any of the forums would knowingly pay more than what my first house cost for one of these problematic bikes is beyond logical. Especially an informed member like Thermodyne. I don't get it.

As for S&S, PW and I usually agree on most things, but not S&S. They have burned me so many times I have lost count. But, they are the 10k pound gorilla in the room (and they know it) so I have to source some components from them.

I understand the consensus here is to pin the new pushing. Got it. Maybe it has been posted, but I have not seen the root cause of the spun bushing. Running it through the logic matrix, the root issue is either bushing/plate or pinion shaft/bushing related.

Has S&S been made aware of this catastrophe and are they interested in looking at the plate? As a manufacturer, I would think their quality department would want to have a look at this component.

[Nastytls]

I'm waiting for PeeWeeMorris to comment on this which he thinks is a internet fabrication designed to destroy S&S 

Facts and logic are too much for some people to deal with, they'd rather just rant and rave about things that have nothing at all to do with the issue at hand. We're dealing with someone that is attempting to assert that most of not failures are the end users fault, not the manufacturer's and that it's fine for a company to not stand behind their product.

At this point I believe that it's reasonably well established that the sumping issue with M8's is related to the loose piston oilers and over filling of oil, which makes these expensive aftermarket plate/pumps a waste of money. Rebuild the engine with the factory plate/pump and ride on.

[VDeuce]

My 120 sumped after I replaced the oiler gaskets, handled the screw depth, loctite and with oil half quart low. My fix was a Feuling pump and plate with no other changes and has been sump free for 12k miles.

[PoorUB]

I used to be the opinion that the problems reported online about the M8 were simply the 'sky is falling' mentality of online forums, but starting to think there are real issues with this new platform that even the aftermarket has yet to get in front of. Why anyone on any of the forums would knowingly pay more than what my first house cost for one of these problematic bikes is beyond logical. Especially an informed member like Thermodyne. I don't get it.

I don't get it either. For me to spend upwards of $30K on a motorcycle is a major investment, I will spend the money, but it better run when I want it. That is why I bought a new Limited in 2016. I was ready for a new motorcycle, heard talk of the M8 coming out and bought the 2016. IMO, the TC is pretty well tried and tested and a pretty solid engine at the end. No way was I going to buy into the first year of a new engine from the MoCo, and I am glad I didn't. Here we are four model years later and nobody is certain that HD has fixed the M8 yet. Sure, only a low percent have issues, but I will not take that chance. I can't imagine spending $28K and getting a lemon. I would not be fun to be around.

[Admiral Akbar]

That is pretty extreme off center wear for just a spun dry bushing problem.  Is the came plate alignment OK?  Why would the wear be so pronounced on the one half of the bushing if the crank is good and the plate is doweled in place?   

The bushing spun and starved it for oil.   Then the cam wore into the high load area of the bushing, but slightly past the center of static load because of the way the cam loads against the tappets.  No issue there.  The unworn area of the bushing has no load to speak of.  And once the clearance opened up, there was probably some oil getting to the bushing, the waste from the outer tappet was probably getting splashed all over it.  That's the only way it could have survived the roll home.

My mistake, I thought everyone knew this..

[Will-Run]

What are the differences..... if any, between S&S pump & plate & Fuel Moto. pump & plate?.

[turboprop]

What are the differences..... if any, between S&S pump & plate & Fuel Moto. pump & plate?.

No such thing as a Fuel Moto pump and plate as they are simply a reseller, not a manufacturer.

[Thermodyne]

What are the differences..... if any, between S&S pump & plate & Fuel Moto. pump & plate?.

S&S uses a three rotor (stage) pump.  Pretty much everyone else uses a two rotor pump.  The problem with scavenging two separate areas with one rotor is that if one area has no oil, the pump draws air.  And the air stalls the scavenge side of the pump.  Stall the pump, drown the sump.  Harley uses a 2 rotor pump because its cheaper to produce.  Quite a lot cheaper as production parts go.  And most companies just use a modified version of the Harley pump.

S&S also adds magnets and chip screens as well as an adjustable bypass valve. 


On the cam plate, S&S  changed the way oil is routed through the plate, and installed replicable bushings for the cam and crank.  Most others just ride in the material of the plate.  Riding in the plate material is fine, the bushings just make the plate rebuildable. 

The bushing is not a new idea.  S&S used them on their twin cam plate.  As did Screaming Eagle.

[yobtaf103]

S&S pump will work with the stock cam plate ?

[To The Max]

S&S pump will work with the stock cam plate ?

I don't have a problem with my softail but have been pondering putting in the 3 stage pump . thoughts anybody. Max .

[IronButt70]

S&S pump will work with the stock cam plate ?

I don't have a problem with my softail but have been pondering putting in the 3 stage pump . thoughts anybody. Max .

If it ain't broke.......Well, you know. JMHO

[Ohio HD]

S&S pump will work with the stock cam plate ?

I don't have a problem with my softail but have been pondering putting in the 3 stage pump . thoughts anybody. Max .

Keep working on it until it does have a problem?   

If you have one that has no issues, just ride it and be happy.

[wfolarry]

If you plan on pinning that bushing why not just replace the bushing in the plate you have?
When you drill that new plate & press a pin in there it will leave a raised spot in the bore. It will have to be resized. If you're equipped to do this then you're all set. If not plan ahead.

[Thermodyne]

S&S pump will work with the stock cam plate ?

As I understand it, yes.  But I would double check that with S&S.

[Thermodyne]

If you plan on pinning that bushing why not just replace the bushing in the plate you have?
When you drill that new plate & press a pin in there it will leave a raised spot in the bore. It will have to be resized. If you're equipped to do this then you're all set. If not plan ahead.

I checked the size on the cam journal and its a standard reamer size.  1.100 IIRC.  So I can run a pin reamer through it then fit size it on the rod machine.

[Thermodyne]

If you plan on pinning that bushing why not just replace the bushing in the plate you have?
When you drill that new plate & press a pin in there it will leave a raised spot in the bore. It will have to be resized. If you're equipped to do this then you're all set. If not plan ahead.

I would have been good with that.  But S&S has the call on that.  And their call was a new plate. 
They probably want the old plate back on their bench to see if they can determine what the bushing spun.  If its a fit issue, then they can correct it with their vender.  I suspect its a fit quality issue, no reason this bushing should behave differently than the bushings in the TC plate.

With that said, if I was to press that bushing and replace it, I would cut a feed grove in the bore of the plate.  So the bushing was not reliant on being indexed correctly.   But that would also involve a line reamer and a bare case to correct the bushing after leaning on it that hard.  And with the way motor parts are built these days, the bushing might need to be dipped in nitrogen before setting it in place. 

[pwmorris]

I'm waiting for PeeWeeMorris to comment on this which he thinks is a internet fabrication designed to destroy S&S 

Obsolete part that you got from Taiwan Ted, Custom Chrome, etc.
S&S does not make, or have this P/N any more.

https://www.sscycle.com/search

Note the double layered sticker, new part number.

If you plan on pinning that bushing why not just replace the bushing in the plate you have?
When you drill that new plate & press a pin in there it will leave a raised spot in the bore. It will have to be resized. If you're equipped to do this then you're all set. If not plan ahead.

I would have been good with that.  But S&S has the call on that.  And their call was a new plate. 
They probably want the old plate back on their bench to see if they can determine what the bushing spun.  If its a fit issue, then they can correct it with their vender.  I suspect its a fit quality issue, no reason this bushing should behave differently than the bushings in the TC plate.

With that said, if I was to press that bushing and replace it, I would cut a feed grove in the bore of the plate.  So the bushing was not reliant on being indexed correctly.   But that would also involve a line reamer and a bare case to correct the bushing after leaning on it that hard.  And with the way motor parts are built these days, the bushing might need to be dipped in nitrogen before setting it in place. 

Parts fail from all manufacturers. I know of an aerospace circuit board vendor who has has a rejection if just one out of 10,000 is even in the thousands out of spec....
So S&S has offered you a new plate?
Despite all the hero modification advice posted, I will bet you do nothing-and assemble as is.
You will install it just as thousands have before you.
However, going forward, as I said, I would tear that motor down, and split cases. I also believe this is a symptom of another issue -crank, etc. and if Im not 100 percent, positive, it's simply too risky to re-assemble as is.
As far as re-using parts I deem inferior....never have never will, but that's just me.
You screw me, you are out. Period.
Anyway, Since you seem to think you are good not doing that, best of luck going forward, and hope it works out for you.

[Mule]

Obsolete part that you got from Taiwan Ted, Custom Chrome, etc.
S&S does not make, or have this P/N any more.
They went obsolete pretty darn fast seeing how the packaging date was last March 2019...

[pwmorris]

Obsolete part that you got from Taiwan Ted, Custom Chrome, etc.
S&S does not make, or have this P/N any more.
They went obsolete pretty darn fast seeing how the packaging date was last March 2019...

That is the secondary aftermarket sticker date posted above the original S&S part number.
Call S&S tomorrow, then own it here on this post.....

[98fxstc]

I believe the S&S standard lifters are made in Mexico
the S&S Premiums are made in the US

[To The Max]

S&S pump will work with the stock cam plate ?

I don't have a problem with my softail but have been pondering putting in the 3 stage pump . thoughts anybody. Max .

If it ain't broke.......Well, you know. JMHO

Thanks guys , to say the truth I would rather stay with the OEM party any way. Max

[Thermodyne]

Good thing I have another scooter to ride. 

M8 oil pans for baggers are on back order till the 20th.  So by the time it gets to Fuelmoto and then to me, it'll be end of the month.

Now with that said, the MoCo makes an oil pan that has a baffle permanently attached, making the part disposable.  I get it, they save some money on a part that few expect to ever replace.  But then they run out of replacement pans?  Someone cut the inventory budget too thin, or is the demand for service pans higher than expected?     

[PoorUB]

Now with that said, the MoCo makes an oil pan that has a baffle permanently attached, making the part disposable.     

Drill of the rivets, and drill and tap the holes for screws. Not hard to do at all.