Author Topic: Camplate Failure  (Read 5060 times)

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Offline Thermodyne

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Re: Camplate Failure
« Reply #75 on: September 13, 2019, 09:57:36 AM »

Now with that said, the MoCo makes an oil pan that has a baffle permanently attached, making the part disposable.     

Drill of the rivets, and drill and tap the holes for screws. Not hard to do at all.

Ya, I know I could remove the baffle.  But since this is a warrantee job and S&S is eating the pan, I'd still need an old one to send back. 

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Camplate Failure
« Reply #76 on: September 13, 2019, 09:58:05 AM »

Now with that said, the MoCo makes an oil pan that has a baffle permanently attached, making the part disposable.     

Drill of the rivets, and drill and tap the holes for screws. Not hard to do at all.

Got any pics of doing one?
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Offline PoorUB

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Re: Camplate Failure
« Reply #78 on: September 13, 2019, 08:00:32 PM »

Now with that said, the MoCo makes an oil pan that has a baffle permanently attached, making the part disposable.     

Drill of the rivets, and drill and tap the holes for screws. Not hard to do at all.

Got any pics of doing one?

Nope, but someone here posted pics of them removing the baffle and reinstalling it a while back.
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Offline klammer76

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Re: Camplate Failure
« Reply #79 on: September 14, 2019, 09:49:22 AM »
Well, if you saw the pictures before they were removed you got the idea. Find the ones from here, Whatever.

Offline Coyote

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Re: Camplate Failure
« Reply #80 on: September 14, 2019, 09:56:29 AM »
Guys, you can't take stuff from other websites and upload them here. Either hotlink the pics or use a photo hosting service and post them that way.

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=350.0

Quote
Do not cut and paste material from other sites on HTT. Use a link instead. Do not upload any material that is owned/copyrighted by others.
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Offline pwmorris

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Re: Camplate Failure
« Reply #81 on: September 14, 2019, 05:23:56 PM »
My bad,
Have to own this big time, as it has been several years since I contacted anyone I know at S&S, as to their products origin. Have used their products for over 20 years and assumed all was as it was.
I was wrong.
As life and economic pressures change, American manufacturing is constantly under stress from the Global economy to adapt. S&S is no exception. Despite local manufacturing, local sourcing materials in the USA, and trying to assemble the final product here in our Country, they DO use foreign products as their own-
On 2% of their final products shipped to consumers.
This is a fact, and actually, based on the overall V Twin manufacturing situation as a whole (electric, and alternative power sources and political pressures are here now, or right around the corner, making the internal combustion motorcycle engine in serious jeopardy going forward in the next few years), I guess I have been asleep at the wheel, living in a glass house as to S&S being immune to this spreading virus that everyone else was dealing with.

Here are the facts from a trusted S&S source as of September 2019......

“The fact is, we do live in a global economy, in some cases, components of US made parts are made in other countries, sometimes that is price driven, other times it is driven by expertise. Either way, S&S does not make pistons, but we do go out of our way to use the best parts available and in this case (Wiseco or whoever we purchased from) uses an offshore vendor. That being said, 98% of what we sell is made in the USA.”

Again, to all, including FSG (a MOD who apparently enjoys piling on-see post #48) “Ahhhh to funny and to be expected  :hyst:
and everyone else who I defended S&S against you, sometimes, well, many times hardcore, pile on..... :teeth:
All good, I can take it.............

Still believe S&S an excellent, viable option to Harley for performance parts in the V Twin world, as apparently do many across the Globe.






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Offline PoorUB

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Re: Camplate Failure
« Reply #82 on: September 14, 2019, 05:41:25 PM »
My bad,
Have to own this big time, as it has been several years since I contacted anyone I know at S&S, as to their products origin. Have used their products for over 20 years and assumed all was as it was.
I was wrong.

That had to hurt! :hyst:

It is a good man that can admit when he is wrong.
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Offline 98fxstc

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Re: Camplate Failure
« Reply #83 on: September 15, 2019, 01:08:14 AM »




Obsolete part that you got from Taiwan Ted, Custom Chrome, etc.
S&S does not make, or have this P/N any more.
 They went obsolete pretty darn fast seeing how the packaging date was last March 2019...
That is the secondary aftermarket sticker date posted above the original S&S part number.
Call S&S tomorrow, then own it here on this post.....

might need some glasses to go with your humble pie
there are three stickers on the package
the later sticker is the S&S sticker with the shipping date as pointed out by Mule

Offline Thermodyne

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Re: Camplate Failure
« Reply #84 on: September 25, 2019, 09:33:46 AM »
Still waiting on parts.  Got a few more pictures I can post. 

When I dropped the pan it was a real mess





The little silt traps cast into the bottom of the pan seem to have done their job.  The suck hole is clean as was the passage in the case.



In the past, when I've dropped pans, I never found anything worth the effort.  But I guess I'm a believer now.

Offline Thermodyne

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Re: Camplate Failure
« Reply #85 on: October 04, 2019, 11:09:32 AM »
All back together and running well.

I did not split the cases.  But I also did not find any brass past the filter.  Return port was clear, as were the feed passages in the plate.  Tappet were free of brass as were the pushrods.  The sump swabbed clear as did the crank pinion port, and the piston oiler passages.  (for what that's worth)  And I realize that there could be an issue that turns up later, from contamination in the wheel set, but the only solution to that is to send the wheels out for disassembly (rebuild).  So I rolled the dice and reassembled it.  If it was a customers scooter, then time being money, it would have gotten a short block or a replacement engine.  I'd have to get the calculator out to decide which. 

Fuel Moto was great about taking care of everything, but really wanted the parts back asap.

When I spoke with S&S they were kind of neutral about the whole thing.  More concerned about when and where I bought the parts than anything else.  No suggestions as to check on anything at all. 

And as I talked with some of the people I consider to be my mentors, the one thing that seemed to be universal (past everything since the evo being crap) was that I should not modify the cam plate.  Reason being that that would let S&S off the hook if it has a repeat failure.

As it stands now, this is a less than $100 repair for me.  Oil - filter - a few orings off the shelf - some solvent and 3 bond.  If it goes bad, I'll deal with it then. 

Here's a few more photos from the process.

Run out check





Twin cam sprocket lock works fine



Plate style inner cam bearing tool from the twin cam will not work, you need one for an M8.
Or you can use the single bearing puller and driver set from a twin cam.



And just because, I primed it until I saw oil drain from the cam bushing.  So it has oil at this point.  If it spins again, its not from lack of oil. 

 

And some oil filter gore.








Offline lucasg

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Re: Camplate Failure
« Reply #86 on: October 04, 2019, 12:01:10 PM »
Wow...that’s gotta suck big time.   Glad Fuel Moto and S&S are helping you out, and you’re not out of pocket much;  much more “ convenience “ than anything.  Nice that you’re able to do all that wrenching yourself.  Hope you don’t experience anymore issues and get riding sooner than later ....looking good 👍

Offline FSG

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Re: Camplate Failure
« Reply #87 on: October 04, 2019, 02:04:12 PM »
 :up:

Quote
Twin cam sprocket lock works fine

 :up:

Offline pwmorris

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Re: Camplate Failure
« Reply #88 on: October 05, 2019, 07:01:05 PM »
All back together and running well.

I did not split the cases.  But I also did not find any brass past the filter.  Return port was clear, as were the feed passages in the plate.  Tappet were free of brass as were the pushrods.  The sump swabbed clear as did the crank pinion port, and the piston oiler passages.  (for what that's worth)  And I realize that there could be an issue that turns up later, from contamination in the wheel set, but the only solution to that is to send the wheels out for disassembly (rebuild).  So I rolled the dice and reassembled it.  If it was a customers scooter, then time being money, it would have gotten a short block or a replacement engine.  I'd have to get the calculator out to decide which. 

Fuel Moto was great about taking care of everything, but really wanted the parts back asap.

When I spoke with S&S they were kind of neutral about the whole thing.  More concerned about when and where I bought the parts than anything else.  No suggestions as to check on anything at all. 

And as I talked with some of the people I consider to be my mentors, the one thing that seemed to be universal (past everything since the evo being crap) was that I should not modify the cam plate. Reason being that that would let S&S off the hook if it has a repeat failure.

As it stands now, this is a less than $100 repair for me.  Oil - filter - a few orings off the shelf - some solvent and 3 bond.  If it goes bad, I'll deal with it then. 

Here's a few more photos from the process.

Run out check





Twin cam sprocket lock works fine



Plate style inner cam bearing tool from the twin cam will not work, you need one for an M8.
Or you can use the single bearing puller and driver set from a twin cam.



And just because, I primed it until I saw oil drain from the cam bushing.  So it has oil at this point.  If it spins again, its not from lack of oil. 

 

And some oil filter gore.



As I said.....
Post #68-
“Despite all the hero modification advice posted, I will bet you do nothing-and assemble as is.”

Yup.

S&S.......that bad bitch.......you can’t stand to be with-and you can’t stand to be without- because at the end of the day, she is damn good. No matter how many times you and your friends sit around the campfire with a couple brews and bash the witch....you ain’t got nothin’ Better.....and you are right back where you were before. And that’s O.K.

Glad S&S took care of you.
Enjoy the ride, and best of luck going forward on the build.
 :up:
« Last Edit: October 05, 2019, 07:22:18 PM by pwmorris »
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Offline harleytuner

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Re: Camplate Failure
« Reply #89 on: October 06, 2019, 01:26:21 PM »
All back together and running well.

I did not split the cases.  But I also did not find any brass past the filter.  Return port was clear, as were the feed passages in the plate.  Tappet were free of brass as were the pushrods.  The sump swabbed clear as did the crank pinion port, and the piston oiler passages.  (for what that's worth)  And I realize that there could be an issue that turns up later, from contamination in the wheel set, but the only solution to that is to send the wheels out for disassembly (rebuild).  So I rolled the dice and reassembled it.  If it was a customers scooter, then time being money, it would have gotten a short block or a replacement engine.  I'd have to get the calculator out to decide which. 

Fuel Moto was great about taking care of everything, but really wanted the parts back asap.

When I spoke with S&S they were kind of neutral about the whole thing.  More concerned about when and where I bought the parts than anything else.  No suggestions as to check on anything at all. 

And as I talked with some of the people I consider to be my mentors, the one thing that seemed to be universal (past everything since the evo being crap) was that I should not modify the cam plate. Reason being that that would let S&S off the hook if it has a repeat failure.

As it stands now, this is a less than $100 repair for me.  Oil - filter - a few orings off the shelf - some solvent and 3 bond.  If it goes bad, I'll deal with it then. 

Here's a few more photos from the process.

Run out check





Twin cam sprocket lock works fine



Plate style inner cam bearing tool from the twin cam will not work, you need one for an M8.
Or you can use the single bearing puller and driver set from a twin cam.



And just because, I primed it until I saw oil drain from the cam bushing.  So it has oil at this point.  If it spins again, its not from lack of oil. 

 

And some oil filter gore.



As I said.....
Post #68-
“Despite all the hero modification advice posted, I will bet you do nothing-and assemble as is.”

Yup.

S&S.......that bad bitch.......you can’t stand to be with-and you can’t stand to be without- because at the end of the day, she is damn good. No matter how many times you and your friends sit around the campfire with a couple brews and bash the witch....you ain’t got nothin’ Better.....and you are right back where you were before. And that’s O.K.

Glad S&S took care of you.
Enjoy the ride, and best of luck going forward on the build.
 :up:

 :up:The next time this needs rebuilt it will be blamed on S&S as well.  If you don't have time to do it right....you'll won't have time to do it again.
Enjoying the hell out of my "hotted" up twincam

Offline Thermodyne

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Re: Camplate Failure
« Reply #90 on: October 11, 2019, 05:40:07 PM »
250 mile oil change, oil looked good as did the filter.  So far so good.


Offline cbumdumb

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Re: Camplate Failure
« Reply #91 on: October 11, 2019, 07:18:09 PM »
Glad to see Fuel Moto stand up .... had issues twice on a product from them and both times they stood up to the plate and made it right .  Didn’t read whole post  but despite my easy to get ugly personality they worked with me and were more professional than I.

Offline PIRSCH FIRE WAGON

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Re: Camplate Failure
« Reply #92 on: October 11, 2019, 07:53:09 PM »
I'm glad to see you fared well in this.

HOPEFULLY, this was just an isolated incident since there was no "definitive" explanation provided you. And, you really can't blame them - They made good on everything. A lot of places would place blame squarely on the installer before anything is known. Personally, I prefer S&S over H-D in many area's - This being one for sure!

I've put about 15 of those in in the past couple years at my Part-Time. Have yet to see one with a failure (KNOCK-ON-WOOD). Hope I don't!

Good luck!
Tom

Online barny7655

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Re: Camplate Failure
« Reply #93 on: October 11, 2019, 11:03:17 PM »
I have a feeling ,with what you discribed what happened ,it started with ,oil starvation start further up the line as to tappet noise etc , thus starving the main bush ,when a bush or bearing spins you are left with a high side which wears the bush or shaft,to follow the oil flow chart may lead to where the blockage occured first,if that is not addressed this will happen again,chirping would of been bearing spun,hope the new parts has flushed out any debrees that was left in the oil lines , cheers Barny
riding since 62, BSA bantum the first bike

Offline Thermodyne

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Re: Camplate Failure
« Reply #94 on: October 12, 2019, 08:31:43 AM »
I have a feeling ,with what you discribed what happened ,it started with ,oil starvation start further up the line as to tappet noise etc , thus starving the main bush ,when a bush or bearing spins you are left with a high side which wears the bush or shaft,to follow the oil flow chart may lead to where the blockage occured first,if that is not addressed this will happen again,chirping would of been bearing spun,hope the new parts has flushed out any debrees that was left in the oil lines , cheers Barny

As said above, S&S changes the oil flow path to the cam boss in their plate.  I don't know why, and they didn't care to elaborate about it. 

A couple of people who deal with them daily say that their lack of interest speaks volumes.  As did their wanting to know exactly when the part was purchased, and not caring about how long it was in service.  I guess I can read between those lines too.

Offline pwmorris

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Re: Camplate Failure
« Reply #95 on: October 13, 2019, 05:57:15 PM »
I'm glad to see you fared well in this.

HOPEFULLY, this was just an isolated incident since there was no "definitive" explanation provided you. And, you really can't blame them - They man good on everything. A lot of places would place blame squarely on the installer before anything is known. Personally, I prefer S&S over H-D in many area's - This being one for sure!

I've put about 15 of those in in the past couple years at my Part-Time. Have yet to see one with a failure (KNOCK-ON-WOOD). Hope I don't!

Good luck!
Yup-
As I said, it’s take a dump on S&S big time here (but..... :embarrassed: I still love them so while I dump, on one hand, I use their products with the other...damn joke.
Problem is, no matter how you spin this with the Mob mentality, S&S owned up and tried (and did), to make good here, no matter who’s fault.
On top of that, there is ZERO confirmation what caused this in the first place.

“A couple of people who deal with them daily say that their lack of interest speaks volumes.”
Bullshit.
What people? Name them. Lack of interest? Seriously? Myself, and many racers/shops use and deal with S&S on a regular basis. Straight forward on that end. Order, done. Problem. What is it and how can we address it? Done.
No denial, string along, excuses, etc...even though the “blame game of responsibility NEVER goes to the other parties involved.
Installer?
“I did everything perfect...must be the part!” (No damn way he screwed anything  up here.......)
Tuner?
“I tuned it perfectly! Must be the way the owner rides!” Or, “the installer must have screwed up the install!”
Owner?
I ride very gently, and never rev the motor!” “Gotta be the parts! Or....
“The tuner didn’t tune it right!”

Bottom line.....
They sent you a new plate, even though the cause of this is more likely due to other issues (thousands of these plates in use-zero issues).
S&S sucks! (But, hey, can’t wait to use their products again.... :embarrassed:
Hypocrisy at its best.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2019, 06:18:10 PM by pwmorris »
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Online ecir50

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Re: Camplate Failure
« Reply #96 on: October 13, 2019, 07:31:41 PM »
kiss ass :0 if not for fuel moto what would have happened is the question.

Offline pwmorris

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Re: Camplate Failure
« Reply #97 on: October 13, 2019, 07:58:58 PM »
Did Fuel Moto save the day?
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Offline turboprop

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Re: Camplate Failure
« Reply #98 on: October 13, 2019, 08:24:03 PM »
Did Fuel Moto save the day?

Jamie did actually. Scroll through the thread. S&S spent more time confirming when, where and from who the OP purchased the parts from and was not too eager to offer any technical advice or replacement parts. That is where Jamie at Fuel Moto kicked in.

This mirrors my recent experiences with S&S. I will remind you of my TC case that S&S admitted to having improperly machined, didn't offer anything and were really more concerned with the when, where and from who that I purchased the case from. Once that was established they were very quick to point out it was not under warranty and dam near hung up on me.

S&S is not the company it used to be. IMO, S&S went bad when Bret Smith was in charge. You and others that know people at S&S might get treated well, but when the average person calls them the results are very different. Even on this page, they signed up to be a sponsor, said they were here to help, etc. Look at their posts. Minimal to nonexistent. Their few posts on this page have failed to answer any technical questions in an open forum, but have redirected people to their website. Total failure.

But you are right, there are things I need them for and just have to suck it. But I tell you what, I do everything I can to source parts from manufacturers other than S&S. Other than their 4-⅛" bore cases and heads, there is not much I need from them.
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Offline klammer76

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Re: Camplate Failure
« Reply #99 on: Yesterday at 10:40:55 AM »
delete