Author Topic: Engine Spark Knock  (Read 786 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Boe Cole

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1070
  • Country: us
Engine Spark Knock
« on: September 10, 2019, 10:30:37 AM »
2011 103 RGU with S&S 103 cams, kuryakyn crusher mellows and a/c and TTS Tuner.

After the cam upgrade, had the bike dyno'd and its performance is really good over 3,000 rpm.  Putting along in the 2,500 range, its ok but if I'm going up an upgrade, starting to get engine knock.  I understand that there is built into the sofware a spark retard that will retard the spark when knock is detected.  How does it do that?  Is there a sensor or is it done with some sort of magic through the spark plug wires?  If there is a knock detector somewhere in the engine, how can i test it to see if its working properly?  I'm trying to avoid reducing the advance but I will if necessary.

Thanking you all in advance for your contributions to this perplexing issue.

Boe
We never really grow up, we only learn how to act in public.

Offline Armin

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 147
  • Country: de
Re: Engine Spark Knock
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2019, 10:57:00 AM »
The ECM is capable of employing an algorithm called Ion Sensing through the ignition circuitry. During phases of pinging or spark knocks the electrical behaviour of the ignition circuit is influenced causing the ECM recognize this and to momentarily retard ignition timing within certain limits by means of ion sensing. I am not aware of the exact process and probably the experts on this subject might chime in.

Armin.
Nothing can ruin a Man's day faster than an Almost-Takeoff!

Offline rbabos

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 13748
  • Country: ca
Re: Engine Spark Knock
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2019, 10:58:56 AM »
2011 103 RGU with S&S 103 cams, kuryakyn crusher mellows and a/c and TTS Tuner.

After the cam upgrade, had the bike dyno'd and its performance is really good over 3,000 rpm.  Putting along in the 2,500 range, its ok but if I'm going up an upgrade, starting to get engine knock.  I understand that there is built into the sofware a spark retard that will retard the spark when knock is detected.  How does it do that?  Is there a sensor or is it done with some sort of magic through the spark plug wires?  If there is a knock detector somewhere in the engine, how can i test it to see if its working properly?  I'm trying to avoid reducing the advance but I will if necessary.

Thanking you all in advance for your contributions to this perplexing issue.

Boe
It (ecm) senses current resistance in the ions within the spark gap during spark. Higher cyl pressures as in detonation produce more resistance and the ecm will pull timing. The amount pulled is in relation to how much resistance there is to fire the spark. To keep it working as designed the plugs and wires need to be in a spec the system is calibrated for or it either won't work or be way too sensitive causing false knock events in the logs.
Not an expert on the system but that's the basics as far as I know.
Ron

Offline Boe Cole

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1070
  • Country: us
Re: Engine Spark Knock
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2019, 12:00:31 PM »
2011 103 RGU with S&S 103 cams, kuryakyn crusher mellows and a/c and TTS Tuner.

After the cam upgrade, had the bike dyno'd and its performance is really good over 3,000 rpm.  Putting along in the 2,500 range, its ok but if I'm going up an upgrade, starting to get engine knock.  I understand that there is built into the sofware a spark retard that will retard the spark when knock is detected.  How does it do that?  Is there a sensor or is it done with some sort of magic through the spark plug wires?  If there is a knock detector somewhere in the engine, how can i test it to see if its working properly?  I'm trying to avoid reducing the advance but I will if necessary.

Thanking you all in advance for your contributions to this perplexing issue.

Boe
It (ecm) senses current resistance in the ions within the spark gap during spark. Higher cyl pressures as in detonation produce more resistance and the ecm will pull timing. The amount pulled is in relation to how much resistance there is to fire the spark. To keep it working as designed the plugs and wires need to be in a spec the system is calibrated for or it either won't work or be way too sensitive causing false knock events in the logs.
Not an expert on the system but that's the basics as far as I know.
Ron

Thank you for clarifying my thoughts on how it worked.  Since the wires are original, I'll just replace them with oem's and get a couple new plugs to see if that helps.  As I said before, I'm trying to avoid retarding the timing.  Could be the wires have degraded over the past 8 years and the plugs are cheap enough so I'll just go ahead and replace them as well.  I could check the resistance first but don't know what it should be to compare my wires against.  Anyone know???  I have the SM but don't recall seeing any specs on the wires in it.
We never really grow up, we only learn how to act in public.

Offline rbabos

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 13748
  • Country: ca
Re: Engine Spark Knock
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2019, 01:39:39 PM »
2011 103 RGU with S&S 103 cams, kuryakyn crusher mellows and a/c and TTS Tuner.

After the cam upgrade, had the bike dyno'd and its performance is really good over 3,000 rpm.  Putting along in the 2,500 range, its ok but if I'm going up an upgrade, starting to get engine knock.  I understand that there is built into the sofware a spark retard that will retard the spark when knock is detected.  How does it do that?  Is there a sensor or is it done with some sort of magic through the spark plug wires?  If there is a knock detector somewhere in the engine, how can i test it to see if its working properly?  I'm trying to avoid reducing the advance but I will if necessary.

Thanking you all in advance for your contributions to this perplexing issue.

Boe
It (ecm) senses current resistance in the ions within the spark gap during spark. Higher cyl pressures as in detonation produce more resistance and the ecm will pull timing. The amount pulled is in relation to how much resistance there is to fire the spark. To keep it working as designed the plugs and wires need to be in a spec the system is calibrated for or it either won't work or be way too sensitive causing false knock events in the logs.
Not an expert on the system but that's the basics as far as I know.
Ron

Thank you for clarifying my thoughts on how it worked.  Since the wires are original, I'll just replace them with oem's and get a couple new plugs to see if that helps.  As I said before, I'm trying to avoid retarding the timing.  Could be the wires have degraded over the past 8 years and the plugs are cheap enough so I'll just go ahead and replace them as well.  I could check the resistance first but don't know what it should be to compare my wires against.  Anyone know???  I have the SM but don't recall seeing any specs on the wires in it.
Can't help with the plug wires resistance. My v rod don't have any but the good part is wires are cheap enough to just slap in new ones and eliminate a potential issue if it exists.
Ron

Offline PIRSCH FIRE WAGON

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 893
  • Country: us
Re: Engine Spark Knock
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2019, 05:37:55 PM »
IIRC it's 250-583 ohms per inch. Q: Are you currently using OEM Plugs with less than 10,000 miles on them? We solve a lot of issues like yours changing plugs believe it or not.
Tom

Offline Boe Cole

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1070
  • Country: us
Re: Engine Spark Knock
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2019, 05:34:59 AM »
IIRC it's 250-583 ohms per inch. Q: Are you currently using OEM Plugs with less than 10,000 miles on them? We solve a lot of issues like yours changing plugs believe it or not.

The wires are original 2011 but I had replaced the plugs several years ago but don't recall when or how many miles ago.  Going to the dealer today to get the oem wires and plugs.  Hopefully that will make a difference.  When I remove the old wires, I'll check the resistance and compare it to the new wires and report back.

Thanks for response - it is giving me hope that the solution is simpler than reprogramming the ecm to reduce spark advance in that range.
We never really grow up, we only learn how to act in public.

Offline rigidthumper

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5153
  • Country: us
  • Mark, 06/02: There's no cryin' in modifyin'
Re: Engine Spark Knock
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2019, 06:13:32 AM »
Don't let the dealer sell you the SE wires- they provide as many issues as any other aftermarket wire  :angry:

Offline Y2KRKNG

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1385
  • Country: us
  • Fords and Harleys .
Re: Engine Spark Knock
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2019, 07:23:16 AM »
Do you have the HP103 or MR103 cams?
ATP(TurboHarry)95,Mik45,Branch/Mik "Flowmetric" heads,TW55,T.Header 2-1

Offline wolf_59

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1623
  • Country: us
Re: Engine Spark Knock
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2019, 10:52:05 AM »
You could try some vrod plugs 10R12 they are 2 steps colder than stock gap to .035

Offline jjdalynh

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 272
  • Country: us
Re: Engine Spark Knock
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2019, 08:47:51 AM »
the basics are kinda explained above.   there's a bit of mystery about the necessity for stock plugs/wires, but you'll have most tuners tell you to replace the plugs and wires before you do anything else.  if you are getting ping in the 2500rpm up to 3000 ranges, it sounds like your tuner maybe didn't do much if any work on the map in those areas.  fuel needs to be right first in those tps readings.  only after that should spark be a possible issue.  and if your build isn't crazy high CR there probably isn't a reason for it to ping in a properly tuned engine. 

post your .mt9 file

Offline Boe Cole

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1070
  • Country: us
Re: Engine Spark Knock
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2019, 10:02:19 AM »
Update - went to the dealer and got the se wires and se spark plugs.  Only $60 - was pleasantly surprised.  Putting the front wire on last night presented a challenge that I did not expect - had to pull the tank to tie up the wire so it won't chafe against the engine.  I should have expected that but since I've never had to replace spark plug wires before - I was not thinking it through as well as i should have.  Regardless, it was easy - just took longer than expected.

I'll post the mt file in a few days.  Got the mr103 cams and had the whole thing professionally tuned after install.  I know I have to enrichen the warm up map but am hoping the running (Not sure what its really called) map does not have to be changed.

Saw the recommendation against the se wire but when i went to the dealer, the counter guy (who I respect for his knowledge) recommended them along with the plugs.  Since he has more experience in these things that I do, I went along with his suggestions.

Measured the impedance in the front wire (the longest one) against the se wires.  The stock wire I removed was showing 10k ohms of resistance vs 15k ohms of resistance for the new se wires.  I would think that lower resistance is better than high resistance but I'll probably find out this weekend when I have a chance to ride it.

thanks all for the suggestions/questions.  I'll report back next week on my success - or lack thereof.....
We never really grow up, we only learn how to act in public.

Offline Coyote

  • HTT Janitor
  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13179
  • Country: us
  • The Sonoran Dessert
Re: Engine Spark Knock
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2019, 10:43:17 AM »
 :oops:  You should have listen to this guy.

Don't let the dealer sell you the SE wires- they provide as many issues as any other aftermarket wire  :angry:
I was promised Monsoons.

Offline 98fxstc

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1316
  • Country: au
Re: Engine Spark Knock
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2019, 03:15:05 PM »
:oops:  You should have listen to this guy.

Don't let the dealer sell you the SE wires- they provide as many issues as any other aftermarket wire  :angry:

 :up:

Offline 98fxstc

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1316
  • Country: au
Re: Engine Spark Knock
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2019, 03:23:45 PM »
Update - went to the dealer and got the se wires and se spark plugs.  Only $60 - was pleasantly surprised.  Putting the front wire on last night presented a challenge that I did not expect - had to pull the tank to tie up the wire so it won't chafe against the engine.  I should have expected that but since I've never had to replace spark plug wires before - I was not thinking it through as well as i should have.  Regardless, it was easy - just took longer than expected.

I'll post the mt file in a few days.  Got the mr103 cams and had the whole thing professionally tuned after install.  I know I have to enrichen the warm up map but am hoping the running (Not sure what its really called) map does not have to be changed.

Saw the recommendation against the se wire but when i went to the dealer, the counter guy (who I respect for his knowledge) recommended them along with the plugs.  Since he has more experience in these things that I do, I went along with his suggestions.

Measured the impedance in the front wire (the longest one) against the se wires.  The stock wire I removed was showing 10k ohms of resistance vs 15k ohms of resistance for the new se wires.  I would think that lower resistance is better than high resistance but I'll probably find out this weekend when I have a chance to ride it.

thanks all for the suggestions/questions.  I'll report back next week on my success - or lack thereof.....

scratch this guy from your 'go to for advice' list

Offline jjdalynh

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 272
  • Country: us
Re: Engine Spark Knock
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2019, 04:42:52 PM »
Update - went to the dealer and got the se wires and se spark plugs.  Only $60 - was pleasantly surprised.  Putting the front wire on last night presented a challenge that I did not expect - had to pull the tank to tie up the wire so it won't chafe against the engine.  I should have expected that but since I've never had to replace spark plug wires before - I was not thinking it through as well as i should have.  Regardless, it was easy - just took longer than expected.

I'll post the mt file in a few days.  Got the mr103 cams and had the whole thing professionally tuned after install.  I know I have to enrichen the warm up map but am hoping the running (Not sure what its really called) map does not have to be changed.

Saw the recommendation against the se wire but when i went to the dealer, the counter guy (who I respect for his knowledge) recommended them along with the plugs.  Since he has more experience in these things that I do, I went along with his suggestions.

Measured the impedance in the front wire (the longest one) against the se wires.  The stock wire I removed was showing 10k ohms of resistance vs 15k ohms of resistance for the new se wires.  I would think that lower resistance is better than high resistance but I'll probably find out this weekend when I have a chance to ride it.

thanks all for the suggestions/questions.  I'll report back next week on my success - or lack thereof.....

scratch this guy from your 'go to for advice' list

seriously.  just because he's behind the parts counter at HD doesn't mean anything.   sometimes even if they are behind the wrench at HD doesn't either. 

Offline mayor

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7642
  • Country: us
  • south-west central, Pee-Aye
Re: Engine Spark Knock
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2019, 06:49:14 PM »
The bike was dyno'd or dyno tuned?   

I would seriously doubt that an audible engine knock at a particular engine rpm was occurring due to spark plugs and wires.  Knock is usually caused by one of two things - too little fuel (lean) or too much advance (timing).  The built in Delphi knock retard is only there for somewhat of a safety net.  It works based on detecting pre-knock conditions in the combustion chamber (using the spark plugs as part of the circuit).  You do not want to simply rely on it to fix a lean or overly advanced timing scenario in your calibration, since tends to take drastic steps to fix knock events (pulls 2-4 degrees or more of timing at a time dependent on constraints of the calibration).  If you want to test to see if you are having knock retard events through the Delphi system, you can perform a data recording on your TTS units and review the data. 

to add a little more details to what rigidthumper noted.   I seriously doubt that the average HD parts counter guy understands the implication of using SE plugs and wires on the Delphi system.  The SE plugs and wires do not tend to play well with the Delphi knock retard system.  You could get phantom events that aren't necessarily related to an actual pre-knock condition.   This could result in excessive unnecessary timing retard events being done by your Delphi EFI system.  rigidthumper spent a bunch of years riding other peoples bikes on a motorcycle size treadmill (dyno tuning).  He is a guy who many of us consider to be an expert when it comes to tuning (and just about everything else most HD). 

warning, this poster suffers from bizarre delusions

Offline Hossamania

  • Hopeless
  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18358
  • Country: us
  • Mostly confused
Re: Engine Spark Knock
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2019, 07:01:56 PM »
Don't let the dealer sell you the SE wires- they provide as many issues as any other aftermarket wire  :angry:

Update - went to the dealer and got the se wires and se spark plugs.
Saw the recommendation against the se wire but when i went to the dealer, the counter guy (who I respect for his knowledge) recommended them along with the plugs.  Since he has more experience in these things that I do, I went along with his suggestions.

Umm...
No RoadGlides.

Offline rbabos

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 13748
  • Country: ca
Re: Engine Spark Knock
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2019, 06:01:57 AM »
I just don't understand why they would sell the SE wires if they are not compatible with Delphi. Somebody miss the memo or something? As far as plugs go, there really isn't any gain to branch away from stock.
Ron

Offline Boe Cole

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1070
  • Country: us
Re: Engine Spark Knock
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2019, 09:20:11 AM »
I got to the dealer before I got to the posts suggesting to stay away from the se wires/plugs.  The se wires are 10mm vs 8mm for stock.  The resistance is also 5k ohms higher than my old stock wires with 25k on them.  Go figure....

Will find out this weekend when I have (hopefully) time to take a ride.
We never really grow up, we only learn how to act in public.

Offline Boe Cole

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1070
  • Country: us
Re: Engine Spark Knock
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2019, 07:35:01 PM »
the basics are kinda explained above.   there's a bit of mystery about the necessity for stock plugs/wires, but you'll have most tuners tell you to replace the plugs and wires before you do anything else.  if you are getting ping in the 2500rpm up to 3000 ranges, it sounds like your tuner maybe didn't do much if any work on the map in those areas.  fuel needs to be right first in those tps readings.  only after that should spark be a possible issue.  and if your build isn't crazy high CR there probably isn't a reason for it to ping in a properly tuned engine. 

post your .mt9 file

Tried to attach the file but the site won't allow mt files to be posted here.  Is there another place i can share it with you?
We never really grow up, we only learn how to act in public.

Offline jjdalynh

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 272
  • Country: us
Re: Engine Spark Knock
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2019, 09:04:03 PM »
the basics are kinda explained above.   there's a bit of mystery about the necessity for stock plugs/wires, but you'll have most tuners tell you to replace the plugs and wires before you do anything else.  if you are getting ping in the 2500rpm up to 3000 ranges, it sounds like your tuner maybe didn't do much if any work on the map in those areas.  fuel needs to be right first in those tps readings.  only after that should spark be a possible issue.  and if your build isn't crazy high CR there probably isn't a reason for it to ping in a properly tuned engine. 

post your .mt9 file

Tried to attach the file but the site won't allow mt files to be posted here.  Is there another place i can share it with you?

if you use dropbox you can do it that way, it's just a matter of uploading the file and then sharing the link. 

otherwise you can email it

Offline Coyote

  • HTT Janitor
  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13179
  • Country: us
  • The Sonoran Dessert
Re: Engine Spark Knock
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2019, 05:18:34 AM »
Mt9 files are now allowed.
I was promised Monsoons.

Offline Boe Cole

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1070
  • Country: us
Re: Engine Spark Knock
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2019, 10:47:00 AM »
Mt9 files are now allowed.

Super!!!  That should help others in the future.  I was able to email it directly so I'm good for the time being.

Thanks again...
We never really grow up, we only learn how to act in public.