o2 conversion question

[FLTRI]

I did a datarun lastnight and both front and rear o2 are working properly in range.  I believe ToBeFrank hit on the head about the rear running real rich at first.  The Vtune sessions tuned it in, though there is a significate difference between Front and Rear VE table; up to 30%, don't know if that is normal?

Edit: I reviewed the SampleData for Generic O2 and it shows the same percentages that I am getting.

I had the same issue with rear being 20% more than front when using a certain map. In my case, the NI176 map produced these results. When I switched to NL176 or PC176, these major differences disappeared and became much closer together.

What base map are you using?

Anyone know why it is desireable for the front and rear VE numbers to look/be similar front-to-rear?

[nc-renegade]

Anyone know why it is desireable for the front and rear VE numbers to look/be similar frontier?

Got me..if you are asking.  I was expecting it to be closer than 30% at points, with everything else being equal. (No experience, just a gut feeling or preconceived notion.)

I am using PG176-B1-000 for my base.  So far, the bike runs good...not great, but good.  I have not finished tuning it and I have not looked at the ignition yet.  I think it is interesting that several different base maps produce varying results for the VE tables??  If that is the case, than there is a lot going on behind the scenes that we do not know or have access to.   Especially if you consider the VE is the measure of air through the engine...why would different maps have different VE (assuming they are tuned the same) for the same engine?

[Scotty]

Every bike I have done has different VE's front to rear and that is what I would expect to happen.

Exhaust scavenging, cam profile etc wil make each cylinder behave differently and that is the beauty of EFI and mapping each cylinder seperatley.

Of course I could be talking rubbish as well 

[nc-renegade]

Every bike I have done has different VE's front to rear and that is what I would expect to happen.

Exhaust scavenging, cam profile etc wil make each cylinder behave differently and that is the beauty of EFI and mapping each cylinder seperatley.

Of course I could be talking rubbish as well 

Yep, you are right, I just did not expect 30% at points..but that makes sense when you consider the high overlapping, lift cam and other performance parts on my bike.

The one thing that bothers me is the report from VDeuce on the wide differences on the VE's from different base maps; after the tune.  I would not have expected this.

[blkfalc4]

I'm just about done on my o2 conversion on my 05' WG and trying to decide on the base map to use. Gotta say this latest is definately throwing a little curve at it now.
Now I don't know where to begin. Was guessing I was on to something, Now I'm confused as there is no map that closely matches my build.
Kinda noticed the differences uysing the 127 cals but thought nothing of it.

Oh well back to the drawing board I guess.

Mike

[cts1950]

Please list the part number for the o2 sensors and what are you guys doing for wiring. I helped a guy and we used a couple ACR harnesses for the pin connections, got to be an easier less expensive way.
TIA

Here is a list that Ram sent me:

2 ea....72007-05.........Housing Socket
4 ea....72006-05.........Socket, terminal
2 ea....72076-00.........Pins
4 ea....72011-05.........Wire seal, #16-20 AWG/Yellow
2 ea....27683-07.........o2 Sensor

I was looking through a 07 police parts manual and was going to place a order tor these parts and found a difference in the connectors in the plug. They were using a gold plated connector in this circuit I think because of the extremely low voltage any resistance would be intolerable. The list I compiled is mostly the same .

2 ea... 72007-05.....socket housing 2-way
4 ea... 72011-05.....wire seal #16-20 awg yellow
4 ea... 72611-07.....socket terminal #16-20 awg gold
2 ea... 27719-07.....o2 sensor

[nc-renegade]

I've run about 12 VTunes and was somewhat satisfied with the tune.  Today, I used Doc's method and went out and ran 2 VTune sessions and the bike tuned in real good.

I also used ToBeFrank's MyTune and really liked it as well.  I plan to use that program to optimize my timing.

[Don D]

What is My Tune and what does it cost?

[nc-renegade]

What is My Tune and what does it cost?

MyTune is software that takes SERT or SEST datarun files (as well as TwinScan II log files and generates corrections to your VE tables.  It has a well done user interface.  It also looks at your ignition knock sensor and provides new ignition tables based on the knock sensor.

Here the website: http://www.tunemyharley.com/

It is $50.

I find MyTune and VTune are very good tools for tuning.  ToBeFrank wrote MyTune and he is the one that told me my high reading of 4000 mV was from too rich of mixture on my rear cylinder when I was having my sensor problem.  That is exactly what was going on.  He knows his stuff on this.

[Steve Cole]

Be careful when tuning the spark side of things as taking spark away from the main spark table many times is not the right thing to do. There are several spark tables to use and using them correctly will give you a better running bike along with greater overall power and mileage.

[nc-renegade]

Be careful when tuning the spark side of things as taking spark away from the main spark table many times is not the right thing to do. There are several spark tables to use and using them correctly will give you a better running bike along with greater overall power and mileage.

Hi Steve,
I have access to a Dyno 250 with inertia brake.  How do you recommend optimizing the timing using a dyno?

Thanks in advance!

[Steve Cole]

You need to look at the data to determine what is the right thing to do. Pay attention to the temperature and load (kPa) If you see  knock at say 80 kPa and only above 96* you may want to adjust the Spk Vs Temp table, if it's knock at all temperatures then you may want to pull timing from the main tables. A general rule of thumb is that you can run more Spk. at cooler temp to gain both power and fuel economy also the richer the mixture the more Spk you can run (PE SPK).  So when you ride on a hot day or double up the bike pings but on a cooler day by yourself it runs like a bat out of hell why would you take away the spark from the main tables? This is why we do not do a auto timing adjustment, yes it's easy to do but we feel it gives the customer a false sense that it's done right.

[nc-renegade]

You need to look at the data to determine what is the right thing to do. Pay attention to the temperature and load (kPa) If you see  knock at say 80 kPa and only above 96* you may want to adjust the Spk Vs Temp table, if it's knock at all temperatures then you may want to pull timing from the main tables. A general rule of thumb is that you can run more Spk. at cooler temp to gain both power and fuel economy also the richer the mixture the more Spk you can run (PE SPK). 

Steve, thanks!

[flhtci2006]

How the hell do you get the crimped sockets into the amp connector?

[Ram]

How the hell do you get the crimped sockets into the amp connector?

The ECM end have to push into the vacant spot.  Some times the use of a connector pin/socket insertion & extraction tool is recommended.

I used AMP Red. The red end is for pushing into back shell and the white end is for extraction.

For inserting into the o2 back shell you can just push them straight in place.  If they don't go its not crimped right, or the plug end has something obstructing it or your just not doing it right.  Do you have a photo of what your wanting to push in? And did you use the proper crimp on tools? Which end are you trying to insert? And if you have inserted into the o2 back shell and want to remove them those pin contact insertion and extraction tools will not work for the removal of the o2 sockets. Those require tools much like dental tools or lock smith pick tools.  Entirely different procedure to remove them opposed to removing from the ECM connector.

[flhtci2006]

Reference your reply #48.  My socket housings look like yours except, the is a red locking ring.  I have sockets like yours and also sockets that are similar but different.  The ones that are slightly different I got from the dealer and they were on a strip of 10 in a bag with the correct part number.

[blkfalc4]

The red lock ring snaps on after the pins have been inserted into the plug.
I take it you tried both ways. The hooks maybe hanging up on you.
Btw, your gonna love the bike with the 07 cals in it. My bike is running better than it ever has. And it ran really well before. YMMV

Mike

[Ram]

Reference your reply #48.  My socket housings look like yours except, the is a red locking ring.  I have sockets like yours and also sockets that are similar but different.  The ones that are slightly different I got from the dealer and they were on a strip of 10 in a bag with the correct part number.

The ones you have from the dealer, if they exact same part number listed above (way up above), then all you do is cut off the flashing strip they are attached to with a small set of wire cutters.  See photo below.

When you crimp on the wire with the yellow seal like in the photo attached above then that entire assembled end just pushes straight into the black big hole of the back shell and the seal plugs it so its all environmentally tight.  Only when you get both wires seated into the back shell, then you take that red part and slide it home and you then can mate the connector to the other one pig tailed from the o2 sensor.

Is this more clear?

[flhtci2006]

Well, it is as clear as can be.  I have tried this not sure how many times.  I'm gonna have the dealer crimp the pins and sockets and install the housings.  I will say, the sockets are just a bit different in looks compared to yours.  They are the same part number.  Anyway, dealer is pretty cool and will do the crimping no charge.
Now, any secret to getting the pin out of the ECU connector?  I want to remove the common wire so I can solder the 2 wires from the O2's and put the shrink sleeve on.

[blkfalc4]

Do you have the Electrical Diagnostic Manual (EDM) for your bike?
It explains it pretty well with pics in the last chapter.

Mike

[Steve Cole]

To remove the pin or install the pin into the ECM connector is very easy. Look at the grey part of the connector where the wires come in and you will find three small tabs holding the two halves closed. Using a small screwdriver lift up on the tab and open the two halves apart. Now look at the side that goes into the ECM. On each end you will see a small white tab that sticks out into the cover. Depress this tab and slide the cover off, you will have to do both ends before pulling to hard on the cover. Once the cover is off you can slide the wire and pin out the backside. When pushing new pins in place you may have to use a small sharp object and push it through the first time. There is a silicone seal and if there was no pin in a hole it is still sealed closed, a small straight pin will do the trick.

[flhtci2006]

I don't know why I couldn't get the sockets in the O2 connector end.  But, I will have them done by the dealer and also have the pins on the ECM connector end crimped on. That should be done tonight.  Tomorrow I'll disassemble the ECM side connector, run the 2 O2 harnesses and terminate them.  Should be ready to start the programming/mapping Wednesday.

A stupid question, How does the ECM know you have O2 sensors and what to do?  Is the ECM programmed at the factor to accept O2's or is this part of the TTS programming that will be done?  I assume the TTS software programs the ECM.  My reason for asking is that replacing "maps" is different than totally reconfiguring what the ECM sees and does.

[Don D]

Use an .MT7 starter map.

[flhtci2006]

Just a quick note about those damn O2 sensor connectors.  I tried many times to crimp and install the sockets into the connectors (not the pins in the ECM connector).  Finally, wanting to make sure this was not a possible problem area for the future, I went to the dealer and asked to have them terminate the ends.  Well, they crimped on new sockets, had some problems and I bought 2 new housings, then after 1 1/2 hours, I left with the job still not done.  What I'm saying here is, even the trained professionals had the same problems I was having.  I cannot say the parts I had were the same parts listed in a reply before but, I can say the parts were in bags with the bar coded part numbers being the same.  Misbagged parts, possibly.  Don't know yet.

[Herko]

...even the trained professionals had the same problems...

Not likely that they had specific training for this connector or is it something that they do every day.
Having the the proper crimper at home would help but pricey. Or, they may or may not have grabbed the proper cripmer from their special tool stash.
But this crimping can be done with average tools such as needle nose pliers, wire cutters, hemostats etc. if a little finese is used.

As mentioned above there's some pretty good tutorials in the back of the SM's and EDM's.
Shows part numbers and style of cripmers per the given crimp task at hand. Got books?
Little more involved here than adding a fender light to a Ford 8N. 

Getting more than the required number of connector components will be a great asset for trial and error purposes.
Is the wire type/size at least in the ballpark?
Good lighting and maybe a magnifyer would help too.
Perform a pull test (crimp integrity) on the crimps.

Hang with it. Sucess will come.
It's worth the time and work.