Lubing new rings. pistons skirts and cylinder walls

[billbuilds]

     The piston 153 gram pins finally arrived so I can start assembling my top end. My question has to do with how much and which lube to use on the rings, piston skirts and cylinder walls. Some say to use assembly lube on the cylinder walls but say nothing about any lube on the rings. I watched one of Kevin Baxter's videos and he used medium weight motor oil on the rings and especially on the oil ring expander plus a light coat on the cylinder walls. When he's done installing the pistons there's enough oil that it puddles slightly on the top edge of the piston when rolled over and left at TDC. He points this out and wipes it up. Then again, I have read where at least one professional builder on here has said that he's seen excess oil ruin a set of rings.
     Is assembly lube too slippery for proper ring seal? Is a little oil on the rings ok? I'm a little conflicted on how to best proceed. Would appreciate a little direction here. Thanks, Bill

[Buglet]

   Being using 2 stoke oil for close to 50 years no problems. light coat of oil on piston, rings and cylinders.

[rigidthumper]

After checking everything for fit, ring clearance & gap, I clean everything one last time. A drop of assembly lube on the skirts, and a cylinder wall wipe with an engine oil dampened lint free cloth. Clean rings after using a dress file to round any sharp corners after gapping. Couple drops of MMO on rings and ring compressor.
Don't know if it's right, but it works for me.

[60Gunner]

Light coat of MMO on cylinder walls  rings, etc. and a light coat of 20W50 conventional on the skirts. Light coat of Redline assembly lube on the wrist pins.

I should add the 20W50 I use on the skirts is the same as my break in...VR1 Racing oil.
This is also the oil I run all the time.

[kd]

What Rigid said plus I also use 2 stroke oil lightly all around.  

[Don D]

This is controversial but shouldn't be. The lotions and potions of choice are not that critical but do not use a hypoid type assembly lube on rings or cylinder walls. Motor oil!

• Hospital clean everything, do not blow off cylinders after rinsing in hot water after soap washing first
• Spray cylinders generously immediately with WD40 after rinse, now blow dry
• I gap and debur rings for customers with a Total Seal machine and diamond wheel
• One drop of oil in each ring groove, motor oil
• A little oil on the skirts
• A light wipe of oil at the bottom skirt entrance
• Load the pistons and move on
• I recommend on the gaps, for simplicity, oil rails front and rear, rings 1 and 2 left and right over the pin.
• A product, OPTIONAL, Total Seal Quick Seat dry lubricant and their assembly lube
• Break-in oil Shell Rotella 15/W40, Valvoline VR1 20/W50, Driven 15/W50 Break In Oil, all non-synthetic mineral oil based

[FXDBI]

This is controversial but shouldn't be. The lotions and potions of choice are not that critical but do not use a hypoid type assembly lube on rings or cylinder walls. Motor oil!

• Hospital clean everything, do not blow off cylinders after rinsing in hot water after soap washing first
• A product, OPTIONAL, Total Seal Quick Seat dry lubricant and their assembly lube

[/li][/list]

The Total Seal Quick Seat will give you a education on clean cylinders I wont assemble a engine without using it. It will open your eyes up about what is clean.   Bob

[Thermodyne]

10/40 Rotella dyno for set up and first start.  Wipe the walls down with it and oil the skirts.  I just wipe the compression rings with an oily lint free rag just before installing them. Asm lube on the pins.  As a rule, I buy them .010 over what I need and file them to the tight end of the spec.  I'll trade a longer more tedious run in for longer/better ring seal. 

Now the controversial part.  I always load the pistons from the top.  That protects the upper edges of the rings from being damaged as they enter the jug.   

[FXDBI]

10/40 Rotella dyno for set up and first start.  Wipe the walls down with it and oil the skirts.  I just wipe the compression rings with an oily lint free rag just before installing them. Asm lube on the pins.  As a rule, I buy them .010 over what I need and file them to the tight end of the spec.  I'll trade a longer more tedious run in for longer/better ring seal. 

Now the controversial part.  I always load the pistons from the top.  That protects the upper edges of the rings from being damaged as they enter the jug.   

What about the bottom edges? They has important has the tops.
I see no advantage to installing the pistons from the top just inviting problems trying to install the pin and clips. I always remove the engine and do them in a stand on the bench. If you notice there is a very slight champer leading in to the cylinders this is to ease the rings into the bore with a ring compressor. Way easier and less chance of a screw up installing the pistons on the rods before the jugs go on. Other than being ham fisted I don't know how you would damage the ring edges. Has for the gaps this is a interesting article to read.   Bob

https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/engine/proper-piston-ring-gap-is-crucial-for-engine-performance/

[60Gunner]

10/40 Rotella dyno for set up and first start.  Wipe the walls down with it and oil the skirts.  I just wipe the compression rings with an oily lint free rag just before installing them. Asm lube on the pins.  As a rule, I buy them .010 over what I need and file them to the tight end of the spec.  I'll trade a longer more tedious run in for longer/better ring seal. 

Now the controversial part.  I always load the pistons from the top.  That protects the upper edges of the rings from being damaged as they enter the jug. 

I loaded from the bottom for the first time on this last build. I won't do it again. Back to the top for me.
I cut hoses to a length that let's the jugs sit down just far enough to still be able to get the pins and clips installed. Then slit them length wise to pull them off the studs and drop the cylinders down the rest of the way.

[Ohio HD]

What about the bottom edges? They has important has the tops.
I see no advantage to installing the pistons from the top just inviting problems trying to install the pin and clips. I always remove the engine and do them in a stand on the bench. If you notice there is a very slight champer leading in to the cylinders this is to ease the rings into the bore with a ring compressor. Way easier and less chance of a screw up installing the pistons on the rods before the jugs go on. Other than being ham fisted I don't know how you would damage the ring edges. Has for the gaps this is a interesting article to read.   Bob

https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/engine/proper-piston-ring-gap-is-crucial-for-engine-performance/

I agree, I load them from the bottom. And when working with some stroker pistons you have no choice as the oil ring assembly has to be removed to insert the wrist pin. Load them from the bottom with a quality ring compressor, and all is fine.


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[Don D]

If the piston uses a support rail your screwed trying to load from the top. Bottom loading is a must. Most >4 3/8" stroke engines use a support rail. My CP 4.125" custom pistons are designed to not need one. I am not a faan of support rails for other reasons than ease of installation.
Most shops including the OEM and S&S put a minimal chamfer on top when boring and honing for obvious reasons, it is a carbon trap and exposes the piston crevice space. The spigot bottoms bored and honed here have a generous chamfer to help load the rings plus prevent a rash on the skirt on turn over.

[kd]

    The lower chamfer is the biggest reason to bottom load.  A lot easier when mounted on the rod and most doable even without a ring compressor on an engine with full length studs like Harley big twin engines later than shovels.

[60Gunner]

As I understood it, the top edge of the compression ring is more vulnerable to chipping? Im no expert in this area so I'll defer to those that are.
I didn't use a ring compressor bottom loading. Just worked them around using popsicle sticks. Just seemed rather tedious. 
I guess I just got spoiled in my Sporty days where Hammer sent them already installed in the cylinders. I understand this doesn't work with all pistons.

[billbuilds]

      Thanks for all the replies. These spigots had an ok chamfer but not quite as nice as Kirby's work. I loaded the pistons from the bottom w/o a compressor just like I did with the last 3.937 pistons. Started each cylinder on studs then tapped the pistons out the bottom enough to slide the wrist pins in. I used FSG's home spun copper fitting tool to install the clips. Had been dreading this but it went fairly well. Heads were shaved another .030 so the intake is too snug now, will need to narrow it a bit. Bill   

[FXDBI]

Thanks for all the replies. These spigots had an ok chamfer but not quite as nice as Kirby's work. I loaded the pistons from the bottom w/o a compressor just like I did with the last 3.937 pistons. Started each cylinder on studs then tapped the pistons out the bottom enough to slide the wrist pins in. I used FSG's home spun copper fitting tool to install the clips. Had been dreading this but it went fairly well. Heads were shaved another .030 so the intake is too snug now, will need to narrow it a bit. Bill   

Are you assembling the engine In-Frame?   Bob

[billbuilds]

     Yes, in the frame. Why do you ask?

[FXDBI]

Yes, in the frame. Why do you ask?

Was just curious.  I personally dont like working on a engine in the frame prefer the bench and a engine stand. Much easier to torque everything, turn over by hand to check things and stay surgically clean. Completed engine is then loaded back into the frame( I can do this myself with rigging). Personally I am in no rush and am not trying to set any time records and dont care if its the long way of doing it. Worked on mine once in the frame and found it awkward, clumsy and uncomfortable. Each to his own.   Bob

[billbuilds]

     I hear what you're saying Bob. Doing it in the frame some of those rocker box fasteners can be a challenge without specialty tools. 

[FXDBI]

I hear what you're saying Bob. Doing it in the frame some of those rocker box fasteners can be a challenge without specialty tools. 

Even then its a pain in the arse no shortage of tools here. I just find it easier to do on a bench its easy enough to remove.   Bob

[kd]

 

I hear what you're saying Bob. Doing it in the frame some of those rocker box fasteners can be a challenge without specialty tools. 

Even then its a pain in the arse no shortage of tools here. I just find it easier to do on a bench its easy enough to remove.  Bob

   Give it just a few years Bob. The "easy enough to remove" part will go right out of your head.   

[FXDBI]

I hear what you're saying Bob. Doing it in the frame some of those rocker box fasteners can be a challenge without specialty tools. 

Even then its a pain in the arse no shortage of tools here. I just find it easier to do on a bench its easy enough to remove.  Bob

   Give it just a few years Bob. The "easy enough to remove" part will go right out of your head.   

Laffin almost 67years old and after 45yrs+ climbing around compressors and turbines has a millwright its a pleasure to work on a bench and my body likes it better. Each to his own.   Bob

[kd]

I hear what you're saying Bob. Doing it in the frame some of those rocker box fasteners can be a challenge without specialty tools. 

Even then its a pain in the arse no shortage of tools here. I just find it easier to do on a bench its easy enough to remove.  Bob

   Give it just a few years Bob. The "easy enough to remove" part will go right out of your head.   

Laffin almost 67years old and after 45yrs+ climbing around compressors and turbines has a millwright its a pleasure to work on a bench and my body likes it better. Each to his own.   Bob

Bob, your resume is no different than mine ,,,, Heavy equipment (you name it) and truck mechanic often on the road doing it alone...... except your age is a lot less but least enough that you are about to start wondering where the hell your strength went.  You don't have to believe me but reality will soon have you finding a way around lifting engines in and out of frames when possible.  Don't get me wrong, I like bench work too but ....    My lift table is a godsend.

[FXDBI]

........ 
You don't have to believe me but reality will soon have you finding a way around lifting engines in and out of frames when possible.  Don't get me wrong, I like bench work too but ....    My lift table is a godsend.

   I dont lift them out by hand about 5 years back already i figured out the rigging to use a little 500lb come-a-long i have. Hang it from the roof and its easy for this 140lb guy. Like I mentioned I have lots of tools. But I dont have a lift table      Bob

[Hossamania]

........ 
You don't have to believe me but reality will soon have you finding a way around lifting engines in and out of frames when possible.  Don't get me wrong, I like bench work too but ....    My lift table is a godsend.

   I dont lift them out by hand about 5 years back already i figured out the rigging to use a little 500lb come-a-long i have. Hang it from the roof and its easy for this 140lb guy. Like I mentioned I have lots of tools. But I dont have a lift table      Bob

If you don't work on them much, a table isn't necessary. But, it will be one of the better tools you get and you will wonder why you waited so long, unless you are lifting the bike in another way so you're not working off the ground.
I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't know already.

[Deye76]

"climbing around compressors and turbines has a millwright"

I understand, worked out of Local 1102 Michigan for a while.

[JSD]

If the piston uses a support rail your screwed trying to load from the top. Bottom loading is a must. Most >4 3/8" stroke engines use a support rail. My CP 4.125" custom pistons are designed to not need one. I am not a faan of support rails for other reasons than ease of installation.
Most shops including the OEM and S&S put a minimal chamfer on top when boring and honing for obvious reasons, it is a carbon trap and exposes the piston crevice space. The spigot bottoms bored and honed here have a generous chamfer to help load the rings plus prevent a rash on the skirt on turn over.