Tmax and backfiring

[sprocket99]

Looked at your MAP and one thing I would do is go to

Air Fuel Ratios Curves,

AFR Correction vs Engine Temp, Go to  226 degrees AFR correction 3.515 hit the L key, go to 401 degrees change it to 3.515 and hit the L key and it should draw a straight line across and if it get better or goes away you know you are on the right track.

Let me know if that helps but looking at your curve there seems to be to lean for my taste.

I think I made that correction, but just guessing where where 3.515 is, unless there is a better way.

[7hogs]

When you are in the MAP area to make changes hit the space bar and the info will appear.

You can also add to the lower temps to fix this also. I had to increase the correction across the board.

Print of the manual and put it in the "Potty mouth"ter and pick it up and ready during the long ones

[sprocket99]

When you are in the MAP area to make changes hit the space bar and the info will appear.

You can also add to the lower temps to fix this also. I had to increase the correction across the board.

Print of the manual and put it in the "Potty mouth"ter and pick it up and ready during the long ones

Duh. Thanks. I better read all of it.
On adding lower temps- how much at a time to add? Is there a limit? (I assume using the AFR correction vs engine temp). And is this something I should do right away? Sorry about all the questions.

[7hogs]

Go to the AFR correction vs temp, make sure you are linked to the bike, click on monitor and look at your AFR front and rear corrections and if you see a bunch on fuel being added (above 12%) look at the monitor line to see where you need to add. Once you hit 200 the auto tune kicks in.

Where are you at?

Read up on the monitor log and what and where the file is stored. During a cold warm up run the monitor log all the way up to 275 and if you could send it to me I can look at it call you back and step you through the changes and explain what you are doing.

Cool?

Send me a PM and your info and I can explain a lot more over the phone than typing it out.

[7hogs]

OK I looked your map over and Mayors Map over and he is on the right track but I put my twist on it being a stock bike except intake and exhaust.


Look at the changes I made in the AFR correction vs eng temp, timing and AFR.


If you load this and that is totally up to you. Load it, run the initialization and ride it and keep a eye out on your learned offsets.............

If you want just change the AFR correction vs Eng Temp and see if that helps

Looking over your Map it seems to me that you AFR is way off plus your timing.



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[7hogs]

I forgot.

Always clear your learned offsets when loading a new MAP.

[mayor]

not trying to take anything away from what you posted 7....but wow, you sure like timing.    

[sprocket99]

OK I looked your map over and Mayors Map over and he is on the right track but I put my twist on it being a stock bike except intake and exhaust.


Look at the changes I made in the AFR correction vs eng temp, timing and AFR.


If you load this and that is totally up to you. Load it, run the initialization and ride it and keep a eye out on your learned offsets.............

If you want just change the AFR correction vs Eng Temp and see if that helps

Looking over your Map it seems to me that you AFR is way off plus your timing.

I appreciate the map and will give it a try. Since I already made the AFR correction I'll got for a ride and see what it's like.
I want to see how your map works, so that will be next. If you still want a monitor log I could do that tomorrow. Tonight is not gonna work. Let  me know and I will PM you.

[7hogs]

not trying to take anything away from what you posted 7....but wow, you sure like timing.    

I usually put more than that on a stock bike so I was conservative on his but every bike is different. My 107" is not to far off of that and bike runs smooth and my oil temps never get above 200 unless I am traveling long distances and the temp is pushing over 95.

If the timing is to much for his bike he can reduce it if needed.

If you compare the two I took out some timing in the some of his areas. What I thought was way out of line was his AFR on his original MAP.  More timing will need less fuel.

[7hogs]

sprokett99

Send me the monitor log when you can. I am heading to the Nebraska game and will not be back until late tonight. We need to hook up on the phone and I can explain a few things a lot easier to help you through this.........

To me your AFR's look like they are a little rich.

Remember what you do will need sometime to adjust and it does not happen right away.

Do you ride 2 up and if so what is the lb's?

If you are riding 1 up most of the time and around 225 lb's that timing should be ok but you will need time to adjust your bike to the fuel curve to the changes.

[sprocket99]

sprokett99

Send me the monitor log when you can. I am heading to the Nebraska game and will not be back until late tonight. We need to hook up on the phone and I can explain a few things a lot easier to help you through this.........

To me your AFR's look like they are a little rich.

Remember what you do will need sometime to adjust and it does not happen right away.

Do you ride 2 up and if so what is the lb's?

If you are riding 1 up most of the time and around 225 lb's that timing should be ok but you will need time to adjust your bike to the fuel curve to the changes.

You should have the log sometime today. When I took the bike to Zippers I told them my mpg was around 30, so they must have leaned it out. I'm not too concerned about fuel economy, the priority is how it runs.
I ride solo, and my weight has ballooned up to 165.
Enjoy the game.

[7hogs]

What I saw was too much fuel and you should be getting 40+ per gallon. I am getting around 39 in town on a FLHXI, 107" and I am 230.


We will get her straight. More power, run smoother, cooler temps and better MPG!

[genedjr]

I am having the same issues, but with this:

2003 Road King
88" stock notor
SE A/C
SE Exhaust

I watched the videos for dealing with pop and backfire on deceleration and added the 1* to the throttle off timing.  But this had little effect.

I have the AFR set to 14 moving down to 13 from 28.6 throttle to 42.9 Throttle.

I am also getting a light surging under light loads (30 MPH in 3rd gear).

I will gladly start another post, but I was curious about the massive timing change to light throttle positions.
And ohhhh yes, I hear all this talk about detonation, but I do not know how to tell.
I have attached my current map.
...gene

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[sprocket99]

Well, I think if you have detonation you should be able to hear it ping. Someone tell me if that's incorrect. As for your other question, you'll have to wait for the experts.

[mayor]

I watched the videos for dealing with pop and backfire on deceleration and added the 1* to the throttle off timing.  But this had little effect.

you missed the most important part, advancing timing on the base timing map from 1024 to 1536 rpm's (or advancing in the light tps ranges). 

try the map I attached. Clear your learned offsets, and run the auto IAC after you initialize the map.   I adjusted the timing some and the afr.  You may want to check to see if you have the most recent firmware version on your module as well .  Your fuel offsets look kinda jerky.  I think the newest firmware makes the offsets much smoother (although I'm not positive of that). 

I have the AFR set to 14 moving down to 13 from 28.6 throttle to 42.9 Throttle.

I am also getting a light surging under light loads (30 MPH in 3rd gear).

the light surging could be from being too lean.  A couple of the fellows on this site pointed out that their T-max is reading about .6:1 afr leaner than the settings on their map.  I adjusted the afr slightly on the map I attached, but you may want to try richening your light cruise up to around 13.8:1.  Might want to wait to adjust that until after you see what the timing changes do.....

let us know how that works,
mayor

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[genedjr]

Mayor, first thanks.  I was remiss in explaining exactly what I had done.  To much scotch 

I followed the example video exactly moving the timing vs engine speed to match what I saw on the video.  The narrator said he also had a 88" engine so I figured it was a good place to start.  Then I went for a ride.  It seemed to me to be the same or worse for poping and much worse for backfiring.  So all day yesterday I tried different settings, to no avail.  All of them had significant poping and backfiring under moderate to hard decel.

I will try your map now.  It seems I do have the latest firmware as it said it was checking the internet then nothing.  I will make sure its actually loaded into the module   

Now my real question is how far can I go with timing before I go to far?  And how will I know?

I am going to go for a short ride now and see what we will see.
Thanks again Mayor!
...gene

[genedjr]

OK, here is what I did.

I checked and confirmed that I have the latest firmware and its loaded into the module.
I cleared learned fuel offsets.
I cleared learned IAC.
I loaded the map provided by Mayor.
I ran Auto IAC.
I went for a ride.

The surging and pop was the same - bad.  But I did notice alot more noise at idle and low RPM.  This may be pinging, but I am unsure as I really don't know what pinping sounds like.

Any suggestions?
...gene

[FLTRI]

.... I really don't know what pinping sounds like.

Any suggestions?
...gene

TINK-A-TINK-CA-TINK-TINK-CA-TINK!!! Sometimes loud and for long durations if the throttle is kept twisted and sometimes just a TINK-TINK then dissappears after 1/2-1 second if the throttle is kept twisted.
There ya have it......an internet text desription of detonation,
Bob

[mayor]

The surging and pop was the same - bad.  But I did notice alot more noise at idle and low RPM.  This may be pinging, but I am unsure as I really don't know what pinging sounds like.

Any suggestions?
...gene

what rpm's was surging and popping at, and around what tps?  try richening up the afr in those areas, first.  There's a few fellows on this site who have said that the T-max afr settings are generally richer than they see when compared to a dyno sniffer.  Your light tps settings at cruise is set to 14:1, so it may be over 14.6:1 and over if the widebands read .6:1 off like some suggest.


I agree with Bob's desciption of ping, furthermore pinging generally sounds like bb's hitting your front fender. The bike shouldn't be pinging at idle, since there is no load on the engine. 
You may need to let the autotune correct the fuel for the new timing.  I'll compare the map I did last night for you, to one I've been running in my 88" and see if there's anything that seems out of the norm.  My guess is you just need to ride it a little more to make sure you allowed the needed fuel adjustments to be made, but we may have to pull a little timing out of problem areas.   

Now my real question is how far can I go with timing before I go to far?  And how will I know?

that's a good question that I'm not smart enough to know, in fact I was just asking Max the same thing yesterday.  I noticed that 7hogs uses much more timing than I'm comfortable with, but that doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's doing...could be just the opposite, since I'm new to alot of this stuff myself. 


I'm running am 88" as well.  I attached my one of my most recent maps for you to compare to yours (I made some more adjustements yesterday that I wasn't able to try yet).  My build is:
'02 RK 88" w/stock heads, stock TB, Cobra true duals, se ac, and supertrapp 3" internal disc mufflers (21 discs each muffler).

this map has a little less timing than the one I did for you last night, and it doesn't surge or pop with my build (although my mufflers do muffle the sound at lower rpm's probably more than others).


so, was your firmware on your module up to date?

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[genedjr]

FLTRI and Mayor, thanks again.
I decided to work on the surging issues first.  And I think I have that solved.  At least to the point I can let autotune autotune it  

Here is that map.
The only adjustments I made were to timing vs engine speed.
...gene



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[genedjr]

Mayor - yes the firmware is up to date.

Now the harder part.  I don't get a slight poping on decel, I get a 21 gun salute.  Its very loud, very frequent.

I am trying to add timing to the closed throttle position and lower.  For me that is 12.669 degrees.  I have made about 6 runs adding 1* of timing after each run.  There is litteraly no change.  It is really backfiring badly.

Here is the map of where I stopped.  I am going to revert back to the '6' map for now.

...gene

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[genedjr]

 
OK, I screwed up the backfire adjustments.  After re-reading this post, I am reloading the '6' map and adjusting the AFR to take fuel away (increase AFR) at the positions left of closed throttle.

...gene

[7hogs]

My popping and surges were not fixed by adding timing but by adjusting the AFR Correction vs Engine temp. No more popping or surges.


Anyone interested

[mayor]

My popping and surges were not fixed by adding timing but by adjusting the AFR Correction vs Engine temp. No more popping or surges.


Anyone interested

sure, tell us what you did, and what we should be looking for...

[7hogs]

What I have found is the relationship in the AFR Correction vs Engine Temp.

See the MAP below and I changed the timing in the lower RPM ranges.

Now if you are getting Popping and surges what I did was add fuel corrections in those ranges without touching timing and I no longer have surges or popping.

This will not happen right away and the bike needs to be rode quiet a bite. Fuel curve also needs to be in a normal operating range and you can see that using your Auto tune point analyzer.

Another thing that I have found was when you apply your learned offsets the popping and surging will come back until the auto tune has corrected it back in this areas. Why this happens I have not idea.

Once your fuel curve is good no need to apply your learned offsets and you can check that in the Auto tune Point Analyzer. If the fuel increased and decreased are under 250 you are good. Mine stays in the 100-150 range and I also set my closed loop adjustments from 20 to 25.

Now without riding each bike I cannot tell you this will completely work and you may have to add more or take away.

Also you should only run you IAC-Auto if you cannot get your idle correct. Double check the IAC offsets and if they are maxed out move that area up or down one or two steps at a time until you see that they are not maxed out anymore.

This worked for me and may not work for you but I am pretty sure that it will help.

Jim

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