Tmax and backfiring

[7hogs]

Also guys the bike changes will take time to take affect so ride it and give it sometime.


Remember AFR Correction vs Eng Temp, AFR and IAC stop vs eng temp are all tied together and if one is off it will throw them off also.

[genedjr]

7hogs, thanks.
I am off for a couple hour ride and I will try your updates to my map.  The experiment in rasing the AFR left of the closed throttle did not seem to do anything interesting, it was a little better under mild decel, but not that much.  Hard decel still produces huge backfires.

Thanks to all of you for helping, its a bunch better now.  Hopefully with your help I can gain a better understanding of the T-Max and be able to adjust it properly when I start making real changes to the bike.
...gene

[mayor]

What I have found is the relationship in the AFR Correction vs Engine Temp.

See the MAP below and I changed the timing in the lower RPM ranges.

Now if you are getting Popping and surges what I did was add fuel corrections in those ranges without touching timing and I no longer have surges or popping.

This will not happen right away and the bike needs to be rode quiet a bite. Fuel curve also needs to be in a normal operating range and you can see that using your Auto tune point analyzer.

this is good stuff Jim.  I haven't played in this area yet, so I'm finding this very interesting.  I think I'm following what your doing, but how are you gauging how much to add?  and when would you adjust this map, over allowing the autotune correct the fuel on it's own?

here's the area we're talking about for those following along:

Gene's base map:


7hogs corrections:

[sprocket99]

I made another AFR correction, upgraded the firmware, regapped the plugs,and an hour later the rain stopped and the sun came out. (I think it was a coincidence, Jim). So I got on the bike and the first thing I noticed was there was almost no pop with the cold motor, a big change. Only got about 20 miles before the rain came back and it felt smoother. The backfire was still there at the same rpm, not as frequent, and not in 2nd gear anymore, but towards the end of the ride it seemed to go away for the most part.
One new thing, I was going downhill around 20 mph in 2nd with a slightly open throttle and there was a lot of pop. There was no time to try it again. I realize that it takes time for the system to settle in but there were some definite improvements right away.

[mayor]

sprokett99

Send me the monitor log when you can.

You should have the log sometime today.

sprocket, could you send the log to me as well?  I'm trying to follow along with what Jim is doing. if you don't mind, please send the log to me4mayor at yahoo.com

thanks,
mayor

[genedjr]

I need 30 min to let the laptop battery recharge, but I will run a log on the hour I plan to ride.

Thanks again.

BTW: How long do you normally ride before saving learned fuel settings?  I have been riding abotu 30 min between saving learned fuel settings.
...gene

[sprocket99]

sprokett99

Send me the monitor log when you can.

You should have the log sometime today.

sprocket, could you send the log to me as well?  I'm trying to follow along with what Jim is doing. if you don't mind, please send the log to me4mayor at yahoo.com

thanks,
mayor

Sent. Let me know if you didn't get it.

[mayor]

I got it.  Which map was you running when you ran the log? 

[7hogs]

I love helping people as long as it works out.

[sprocket99]

I got it.  Which map was you running when you ran the log? 

this one

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[genedjr]

Jim,
You updates to my map helped quite a bit.  At cruise the bike has never been this quite    I still have some minor poping/surging in 2nd at about 20mph (~2500 rpm).  I did not try any hard decel, just went for a ride.  BTW: I live in Colorado Springs so most of my riding is above 5K ft elevation.  So, I like this so far.  I am going to run it a week or so to see how it adjusts.

Now - the autotune point analyser is fubar.  It lists about 3 tables that it says are corrupt.  I said I needed to reload the map (which I did), but it still shows errors and all the values are zero except the top engine points.  What do I need to do?
...gene

[sprocket99]

I can't answer that question, but for info like that you can call Zippers for product support at 410-579-2100, ext. 120. Usually it's Randy. I'm not saying Jim doesn't know, but until you hear from him...

[genedjr]

Sproket, thanks - I will call in the morning.

I had the chance to get out tonight and go for a little ride.  It's amazing what you can hear at night that is just part of the white noise background during the day.

I noted before that I had what I thought was the normal harley clatter from around 1700rpm to about 2700rpm.  (I bought an autometer speedo/tach - but it broke cruise and signal canceling).  So I believe I am pretty accurate with these rpm values.

Today I also had the timing advanced enough that I would get a real ping, it was inconsistant but dramatic.  The best description I can give is a cross between a rock hitting the fender really hard and a cymbal crash. 

The reason I bring this up is that what I thought was normal harley clatter, really does sound like pinging - just not as loud or dramatic.  And the noise moved to a much more narrow rpm range, say (I have the stock speedo back on) between 2200 and 2500.  It is definately over a narrower rpm range and is quiter than before today.

So what if this is pinging?  What can I do to make sure and then how do I adjust it out?
...gene

[mayor]

So what if this is pinging?  What can I do to make sure and then how do I adjust it out?
...gene

determine where you are getting the ping and remove some timing.  Use tape on your throttle to indicate what tps your running at when it pings and determine what rpm range that it's happening, then go to your individual timing map and pull some timing out of that area.  Here's an example of marking your throttle for tps:

Hook the T-max up to your computer and mark where 14.8, 29.6, 44.3, and 59.1 deg of tps are, then take the bike for a ride and determine where your problem areas are in relation to tps.  I also use this to to set my afr per rpm map as well.   


can you post the map you're running now?

[7hogs]

Jim,
You updates to my map helped quite a bit.  At cruise the bike has never been this quite    I still have some minor poping/surging in 2nd at about 20mph (~2500 rpm).  I did not try any hard decel, just went for a ride.  BTW: I live in Colorado Springs so most of my riding is above 5K ft elevation.  So, I like this so far.  I am going to run it a week or so to see how it adjusts.

Now - the autotune point analyser is fubar.  It lists about 3 tables that it says are corrupt.  I said I needed to reload the map (which I did), but it still shows errors and all the values are zero except the top engine points.  What do I need to do?
...gene

I have never seen the situation that you are telling us about in the autotune point analyzer............... ride the bike some more and then download your learned offsets and see if you adjustments are maxed out or not and if they are give me your MAP and I will take a look at it.

[7hogs]

So what if this is pinging?  What can I do to make sure and then how do I adjust it out?
...gene


Gene,

What I saw in your MAP was too much timing at lower RPM ranges and I lowered them and if you are getting what sound like ball bearings rolling against metal and it happens all of the time you need to drop the timing at least 2-5 degrees until it goes away if you AFR is good. Too much fuel and too much timing will cause detonation. If your fuel curve is not where it needs to be it will cause issues. Lower the timing and ride the bike for a least two tanks of gas at different riding conditions including two up then send me the MAP.

Jim

7hogs@cox.net

[sprocket99]

Gene-
Just want to make sure you're using premium gas only.

[genedjr]

Thanks everyone.
I will be playing with this over the next couple of weeks.  Hopefully the weather will cooperate. 
In colorado premium gas is 91 octane and yes I always run premium.
I am running the map that Jim provided - unaltered.  It's the best so far.
I will try and narrow down exactly where I am hearing the noise and report back later.

Thanks again.
...gene

[7hogs]

Gene,

If you are getting detonation we need to get it taken care of so if you do not have a tach let me know what gear and MPH you are running and that will help.

[genedjr]

Jim, thanks.  I have the pointer for big boyz.  I will get out sometime to day to get a more accurate data.
...gene

[genedjr]

OK, so I went for a short ride to get the general information.  But most places here are very busy during the day so I plan a short ride this evening to verify my findings.

I hear the noise start at about 2100 rpm (32mph in 3rd gear) at about 16 TPS and it gets loudest at about 2350 rpm (35mph in 3rd gear) at about 20 TPS and is gone about 2500 rpm (38 mph in 3rd gear) at about 25 TPS.  After which I do hear valves and pistons sliding but the noise is gone.

Sooo - If I look at the timing, over this TPS over this RPM range,
@ 2048 RPM - timing is 34* from 16 to 22 TPS, dropping to 33* at 24 TPS to 31* at 25 TPS.
@ 2304 RPM - timing is 35* from 16 to 25 TPS
@ 2560 RPM - timing is 37* from 16 to 22 TPS, dropping to 35* at 23 TPS to 34* at 25 TPS

As you know with just tape marks to go by the TPS numbers are subject to error one way or another.  I used the big boys chart to guestimate the RPM vs speed.

So now if I understand correctly, dropping ignition by 2* across these RPM ranges and TPS positions would be the next step.  Correct?

...gene

[mayor]

So now if I understand correctly, dropping ignition by 2* across these RPM ranges and TPS positions would be the next step.  Correct?

...gene

yes, although my guess is you may end up pulling out a little more.     for you, the easiest thing to do is just drop the main timing map down, since the wot timing will probably need adjusted as well.  Here's the map you have now:


I would suggest pulling 2 degrees out at 2048 rpm, 3 degrees out at 2304 rpm, and 1 degrees out at 2584 like this:


in addition to the main timing map changes, I would pull an additional degree out of the light TPS on the individual map for 2584 from 11.261 tps to 30.968 tps (which drops that a total of two degrees in those areas)


not to take anything away from Jim's map, but I just added more timing to my 88" map, and I'm questioning if my timing is too much..... with much lower timing than your current map.  here's a reference to what I'm running in the same engine currently:

@2048 rpm timing is 31* from 14 to 19.7 tps
@2304 rpm timing is 31* from 15.4 to 21 tps
@2560 rpm timing is 33* from 16.8 to 21.1 tps

[notlost_nc]

"AFR Correction vs Engine Temp"     can someone explain what this part of the map really does ?   What does raising or lowering the settings do for me ?    Excellent thread.

[7hogs]

"AFR Correction vs Engine Temp"     can someone explain what this part of the map really does ?   What does raising or lowering the settings do for me ?    Excellent thread.

Cross between pulling out the chock when warming up and when it is warm it is like turning your idle air screw in and out.


That is my opinion only.

[7hogs]

OK, so I went for a short ride to get the general information.  But most places here are very busy during the day so I plan a short ride this evening to verify my findings.

I hear the noise start at about 2100 rpm (32mph in 3rd gear) at about 16 TPS and it gets loudest at about 2350 rpm (35mph in 3rd gear) at about 20 TPS and is gone about 2500 rpm (38 mph in 3rd gear) at about 25 TPS.  After which I do hear valves and pistons sliding but the noise is gone.

Sooo - If I look at the timing, over this TPS over this RPM range,
@ 2048 RPM - timing is 34* from 16 to 22 TPS, dropping to 33* at 24 TPS to 31* at 25 TPS.
@ 2304 RPM - timing is 35* from 16 to 25 TPS
@ 2560 RPM - timing is 37* from 16 to 22 TPS, dropping to 35* at 23 TPS to 34* at 25 TPS

As you know with just tape marks to go by the TPS numbers are subject to error one way or another.  I used the big boys chart to guestimate the RPM vs speed.

So now if I understand correctly, dropping ignition by 2* across these RPM ranges and TPS positions would be the next step.  Correct?

...gene

Drop the timing 2-3 degrees in those areas and ride it for a while and see how it is but give it a chance to adjust your AFR's this is very very important.