IAT Relocation Kit

[hotroadking]

What would be interesting would be to have a sample of outside air temp as you ride,
the temp of the air in the area behind the filter and the temp of the air in the manifold without
the sensor being subject to the temp changes from the manifolds heat.

What is the "real" difference, are we talking 50, 100, or 20 degrees.

[rbabos]

That's what the iat does, as in add or remove fuel depending on intake air temp...

I was just reviewing the thread before closing out the tab when I saw this and remembered I'd wanted to comment on it.  I believe it's stated rather like that a time or two subsequently in the thread by other folks, too.

The IAT sensor doesn't add or subtract fuel any more than an O2 sensor does, or than a TPS does, or than a CKP does.  They're only reference devices which the ECU uses to decide upon fuel quantities.  The sensors don't care what the ECU does.  They just report what they're seeing at the moment.

I'm not suggesting we use such tediously precise language as a lawyer might use, but it's pretty important to get the proper mental image across.  Don't you agree?

glens: I don't agree that the O2 will add fuel to what the iat removes. If so, it's function would be worthless. I think it uses the iat as a guideline for the O2 to be richer or leaner in afr.  Not one case I've read about has the mixture revert back to where it was before relocating the iat to a cooler place that made it slightly richer. This would mean the O2s have a new base to work from. A new tune would be required to restore your original afrs but they would not fluctuate as much now since the iat bias would be more constant. I've never felt the O2 compensate for a heat soaked iat yet. Only when it cools off some does the running return to where it was tuned.Granted, my tune is on the edge and it most likely will show this much quicker than one with a completely dyno tuned operator with an anal attitude for perfection. None the less the condition exists.
Ron

[rbabos]

What would be interesting would be to have a sample of outside air temp as you ride,
the temp of the air in the area behind the filter and the temp of the air in the manifold without
the sensor being subject to the temp changes from the manifolds heat.

What is the "real" difference, are we talking 50, 100, or 20 degrees.

I've seen 90 sitting in traffic and idling. This was at 275 head temp. It could go much higher, given more time to climb. There comes a point where the head temp sensor goes out of it's normal operation range where it has 0% influence on afr and will start adding some fuel as it sees the extra heat.  What that is exactly I don't know but I'm hoping that it would exceed what the iat pulled from the heat soaking or there would be no real gain. As with the iat, the head temp is not counteracted by the O2s
Ron

[1FSTRK]

I've seen 90 sitting in traffic and idling. This was at 275 head temp. It could go much higher, given more time to climb. There comes a point where the head temp sensor goes out of it's normal operation range where it has 0% influence on afr and will start adding some fuel as it sees the extra heat.  What that is exactly I don't know but I'm hoping that it would exceed what the iat pulled from the heat soaking or there would be no real gain. As with the iat, the head temp is not counteracted by the O2s
Ron
[/quote]

Are you saying that the O2s don't have the final say when in closed loop ?

[FLTRI]

I've seen 90 sitting in traffic and idling. This was at 275 head temp. It could go much higher, given more time to climb. There comes a point where the head temp sensor goes out of it's normal operation range where it has 0% influence on afr and will start adding some fuel as it sees the extra heat.  What that is exactly I don't know but I'm hoping that it would exceed what the iat pulled from the heat soaking or there would be no real gain. As with the iat, the head temp is not counteracted by the O2s
Ron

Sure would be nice to see a data log of your running issues! I realize you may feel you are dialed into the Delphi ECM EFI operation, but maybe someone can see something you MAY have overlooked or misunderstood as far as operation is concerned.
....OR just figure ways to trick the system and ECM into doing what you want rather than tuning for the desired results.
Bob
PS - Have you modded the warmup enrichment table yet? ...to see how it affects the run quality when the engine sees high intake tract heat?
There IS a reason for that table and how it affects hot running/restarts, etc.

[Steve Cole]

Guys

This is like building a house. Everything stacks on top of the foundation. If the foundation is faulty, so goes the rest. O2's are only one indicator of what is going on but when they show something’s wrong you need to find it and fix it. As I've tried to tell Ron there are three modes that the ECM fuel control works in, Open Loop, Closed Loop and Closed Loop Learning. The only time the AFV's learn anything is in closed loop learning but they are used to correct fuel mixture all the time.

[glens]

glens: I don't agree that the O2 will add fuel to what the iat removes.

Then we agree, because I also don't agree with that statement.  I'm sure I never made it.  Neither of the devices change fuel amounts.

If so, it's function would be worthless. I think it uses the iat as a guideline for the O2 to be richer or leaner in afr.

I don't know which "it's" you're referring to.  But let's look at an example.

Say you got your bike professionally tuned on a dyno with enough airflow to keep the intake manifold at a "roadlike" temperature.  Everything's spot-on.  The AFVs are all within a percent of "100" and staying there.  The ECM's happy and so are you.

Then you take and put the IAT into the back of the intake, outside the throttle plate and inside the filter.  Let's say you even made a little heat-shield/duct to keep the outside of the unit as cool as possible.

Certainly, the air temperature would come in at a lower value.  The ECM will use this lower temperature to increase the amount of fuel, because cooler, denser air will contain more oxygen molecules by volume.  But the air will become the same temperature it did (and was reported as) before (thus less dense), on its way into the engine.  The O2 sensors will increase their mean output as this now-richer mixture works through the system.  The ECU will see this and "take care of it" by decreasing the appropriate AFV to where the O2 sensor set-point matches the sensor output.  The more AFV cells that get learnt with this new IAT location, the more evenly fuel gets pulled everywhere.  This same process is what happens just about every time you fill up at a different station while traveling.  Hell, maybe across town.  In that case, sometimes fuel will get pulled and sometimes it'll get added.

On a side note, I feel that, ideally, all the AFVs but one would be redundant.  The more precisely the VE tables are populated the more closely it should all get to this "ideal".

Not one case I've read about has the mixture revert back to where it was before relocating the iat to a cooler place that made it slightly richer. This would mean the O2s have a new base to work from.

The O2s will still have the same programming setpoint they had before.  Relocating the IAT doesn't change that.  If none of the reported mixtures reverted, then either they weren't checked or the system was running completely open-loop.  There is one more alternative, but it pertains to lack of knowledge/understanding somewhere along the chain of information.

A new tune would be required to restore your original afrs but they would not fluctuate as much now since the iat bias would be more constant.

Granted, it sure would stand to reason that the outside temperature of the IAT would not fluctuate so wildly in a more remote location.  But this has not been proven to cause problems.  You're only suggesting it might.  And I agree, it might.  But I also feel the response of the unit under these varying conditions is well-known by the designers, and more, compensated-for in the ECU programming.

I've never felt the O2 compensate for a heat soaked iat yet. Only when it cools off some does the running return to where it was tuned.Granted, my tune is on the edge and it most likely will show this much quicker than one with a completely dyno tuned operator with an anal attitude for perfection. None the less the condition exists.

I certainly can't argue against that.  If you have a problem, then you have a problem.  How much is an IAT with which to test your theory?

[rbabos]

Guys

This is like building a house. Everything stacks on top of the foundation. If the foundation is faulty, so goes the rest. O2's are only one indicator of what is going on but when they show something’s wrong you need to find it and fix it. As I've tried to tell Ron there are three modes that the ECM fuel control works in, Open Loop, Closed Loop and Closed Loop Learning. The only time the AFV's learn anything is in closed loop learning but they are used to correct fuel mixture all the time.

I knew you couldn't resist this thread.   Once again you are missing my point. You know very well I need to run open loop from 1500-2250 since it didn't vtune with low kpa's. So far the cause has not been determined and I'm frankly tired of you and a few others harping about me fixing it when not one can give a possible cause for it. At some point it might be discoverd,  so with that in mind I tuned to my existing conditions.  What I'm trying to accomplish here is to remove the leaning influence from the heat soaked iat when driving through the city and keep those(open) areas more stable in afr. As you pointed out the O2s and afv have no play in this area and the afr is in a fixed state.  Correct me if I'm wrong but in open loop the only influence in afr is the head temp sensor and the iat sensor? This is a simple question and if I'm wrong in the relationship for open loop regarding the iat influence I'll re-think my plan on iat relocation. Give me some credit here, since I've gotten a stable tune in all other areas running in closed loop, without a dyno, widebands or sniffers. The small open loop area is still a best guess, however without tools to know where I stand.
Ron

[rbabos]

I've seen 90 sitting in traffic and idling. This was at 275 head temp. It could go much higher, given more time to climb. There comes a point where the head temp sensor goes out of it's normal operation range where it has 0% influence on afr and will start adding some fuel as it sees the extra heat.  What that is exactly I don't know but I'm hoping that it would exceed what the iat pulled from the heat soaking or there would be no real gain. As with the iat, the head temp is not counteracted by the O2s
Ron

Sure would be nice to see a data log of your running issues! I realize you may feel you are dialed into the Delphi ECM EFI operation, but maybe someone can see something you MAY have overlooked or misunderstood as far as operation is concerned.
....OR just figure ways to trick the system and ECM into doing what you want rather than tuning for the desired results.
Bob
PS - Have you modded the warmup enrichment table yet? ...to see how it affects the run quality when the engine sees high intake tract heat?
There IS a reason for that table and how it affects hot running/restarts, etc.

Yes, did that right away after your post. Went a bit much because it runs lumpy until the warmup enrichment decays and then jumps to slighly lean again. Drive a couple of blocks the idle returns to what seems to be good afr. I will drop the W-E a tad and drop my idle afr out of closed loop to 14.4 and try again. Has to be a decent setting in there someplace.
Ron

[glens]

As you [Steve] pointed out the O2s and afv have no play in this area and the afr is in a fixed state.  Correct me if I'm wrong but in open loop the only influence in afr is the head temp sensor and the iat sensor?

AFVs do have "play" in that area.  They don't get developed there, but the nearest ones which do get developed will still apply all the same.

If you happen by chance to have wound up with a particular AFV which no longer receives updates, it can affect surrounding areas adversely.  Such as with different fuel where more is needed, it will not happen in the area of that AFV's influence.  But maybe your area is smack dab in the middle of four AFVs which continually get updated and maybe this is why you're noticing changes in that running area under different operational conditions.

Ron, I recommend you sit down with Steve.  Provide him whatever information he wants and to do [edit: damn spell-check said the word was okay...] exactly what he says in response.  If after you've exhausted all possibilities with him and still end up with a "problem", only then would I suggest you start to pursue other avenues like this.

[hotroadking]

Good grief can't we discuss this without someone taking offense, really I didn't see any shots given, just simple advice based on knowledge.

OK so it is about the change and relocation of the IAT as a potential solution, as pointed out there are several other sensors that provide input to the ECM, I would imagine it's logic is to pull all the data from every location and then decisions are made as to what is done based on the total data, not Just the IAT.

When you get your new IAT mounted in the plate it will be interesting to see what temp differences you see and by how much the location differs,  The heat transferred to the intake is also going to travel to the backing plate, and you have heat from the head/cyl that will heat the back of the sensor as well so it might not give you a big difference.

In a car you could stick an IAT way down an intake tube into a piece routed into the front fender, front headlight area or wheel well and see significant changes in temp, but the plates not that much farther away.

Perhaps a reading of the intake temp, then from the backing plate see what you gain or loose via temps...

[rbabos]

Good grief can't we discuss this without someone taking offense, really I didn't see any shots given, just simple advice based on knowledge.

OK so it is about the change and relocation of the IAT as a potential solution, as pointed out there are several other sensors that provide input to the ECM, I would imagine it's logic is to pull all the data from every location and then decisions are made as to what is done based on the total data, not Just the IAT.

When you get your new IAT mounted in the plate it will be interesting to see what temp differences you see and by how much the location differs,  The heat transferred to the intake is also going to travel to the backing plate, and you have heat from the head/cyl that will heat the back of the sensor as well so it might not give you a big difference.

In a car you could stick an IAT way down an intake tube into a piece routed into the front fender, front headlight area or wheel well and see significant changes in temp, but the plates not that much farther away.

Perhaps a reading of the intake temp, then from the backing plate see what you gain or loose via temps...

Did a bit of location testing already. Running the SE Heavy breather I've found the elbow gets really hot from conducting heat off of the tb. The only area that don't seem to change much is the back of the filter element since it's rubber mounted and isolated from conduction. Not sure there would be as much gain with the conventional football cover, but there would be some. Got a new sensor now and all I have to do is get my lazey ass off this internet and do the conversion.
Ron

[rbabos]

As you [Steve] pointed out the O2s and afv have no play in this area and the afr is in a fixed state.  Correct me if I'm wrong but in open loop the only influence in afr is the head temp sensor and the iat sensor?

AFVs do have "play" in that area.  They don't get developed there, but the nearest ones which do get developed will still apply all the same.

If you happen by chance to have wound up with a particular AFV which no longer receives updates, it can affect surrounding areas adversely.  Such as with different fuel where more is needed, it will not happen in the area of that AFV's influence.  But maybe your area is smack dab in the middle of four AFVs which continually get updated and maybe this is why you're noticing changes in that running area under different operational conditions.

Ron, I recommend you sit down with Steve.  Provide him whatever information he wants and to do [edit: damn spell-check said the word was okay...] exactly what he says in response.  If after you've exhausted all possibilities with him and still end up with a "problem", only then would I suggest you start to pursue other avenues like this.

I think I have that afv thing covered. My small area of open loop was confined too much in my problem area and like you say by going closed in all the surrounding areas I felt I might have been picking up some influence from afv in my main area of the closed loop. I've moved over one cell column up down and to the right with an afr blend throwing them into open as well. My specific area seems stable now. Heat is the only influence that changes it now. You say, why not just richen the closed a bit more to counteract what the iat pulls from heat soak. Tried that and it's disgustingly rich when cold in those areas until it heats up to normal temp. Second issue is with hot starts with a heat soaked iat. If I set the idle afr to run right on a heat soaked start, it will be too rich after the iat cools off some. This to me this is a mickey mouse way to do things and no doubt a good majority of bike are tuned this way. By relocating the iat to a more stable temp area I'm hopping to eliminate some of this nonsense.
As for Steve, I asked him what data he wanted and was willing to go out and log whatever he needed. The response was basically there was no point until I fixed my problem, which is really low kpa, which won't allow vtune to function in my problem area. Fair enough.  That reason has not been determined so far and I'm working every possible reason but none have panned out so far. If for some strange reason the cause is determined, I doubt I need tech support at that point, do I ?
Ron

[Steve Cole]

As for Steve, I asked him what data he wanted and was willing to go out and log whatever he needed. The response was basically there was no point until I fixed my problem, which is really low kpa, which won't allow vtune to function in my problem area. Fair enough.  That reason has not been determined so far and I'm working every possible reason but none have panned out so far. If for some strange reason the cause is determined, I doubt I need tech support at that point, do I ?
Ron

Ron that's not what I said at all. What I told you was that we needed to track down what was causing the issue and fix it. I then explained how the system works since you do not understand that part of it. You have been given several possible causes for it. Your response was that was not what you were going to do.  First you said Vtune was causing it, then it was closed loop, then its low kPa, now its the IAT causing it when the truth is none of those are the cause of your base issue. Find and fix the base issue and the rest will most likely be solved at the same time.

Since your not wanting to trace down the problem and fix it there is nothing I or anyone else can do to help.

[FLTRI]

If  I'm not mistakes, if Ron goes out and records (he may already have good data files) the issue(s), and sends the data recordings to Steve, that will give Steve some data that he can actually see and diagnose.

I'm under the impression, based on Ron's comment that he had "his reasons" for not doing so, that Ron has not nor will send data log(s) so that the issue(s) can be resolved.

Maybe it's better for Ron to have the issues? Keeps him live on the board courting suggestions from members?

Gotta say most folks with problems are more than willing to ask Steve to take a peek at their data....but not Ron?

Just my observation from watching/reading this and other threads Ron has presented his unresolved issues and asking about and offering unorthodox resolves rather than fixing the problem(s),
Bob

[rbabos]

As for Steve, I asked him what data he wanted and was willing to go out and log whatever he needed. The response was basically there was no point until I fixed my problem, which is really low kpa, which won't allow vtune to function in my problem area. Fair enough.  That reason has not been determined so far and I'm working every possible reason but none have panned out so far. If for some strange reason the cause is determined, I doubt I need tech support at that point, do I ?
Ron

Ron that's not what I said at all. What I told you was that we needed to track down what was causing the issue and fix it. I then explained how the system works since you do not understand that part of it. You have been given several possible causes for it. Your response was that was not what you were going to do.  First you said Vtune was causing it, then it was closed loop, then its low kPa, now its the IAT causing it when the truth is none of those are the cause of your base issue. Find and fix the base issue and the rest will most likely be solved at the same time.

Since your not wanting to trace down the problem and fix it there is nothing I or anyone else can do to help.

Get your facts straight. You know damn well the low kpa is causing my issue, which renders vtune useless in this area. I've ruled out the small tb as the cause, I've ruled out O2 bungs as the cause and have just ruled out the possibility of the cams out of time with each other. I've swapped to new O2 sensors, ruled out intake and exhaust leaks, and any possible cause of my issues. I offered to create any logs you wanted to view my present situation to refine this area and you didn't want them, stating to fix my issue first. Review your pm's.  Then you blame me for not sending data the previous times since you can't determine "Potty mouth" without it. What possible data in datamaster will lead you to why my engine has low kpa. The answer is none because it's mechanical. With no determined cause I'm faced to make the best I can out of the situation and get the best tune I can under the circumstances. Should I want to move my iat wtf do you care. At least I'm making an effort to resolve issues I've seen. Sometimes you have to think outside the box to get the job done. If you don't like it, sue me.
Ron

[hrdtail78]

I'm expecting crickets soon.

[Don D]

Regarding the low KPA
Same here as you recall.
My theory in my case, short cam relative to the cubic inches, mid range compression, and timing on the advanced side at idle and off idle at low throttle openings. Just the perfect factors to make neck snapping torque, plus put the TTS out of the range the software works efficiently.
Maybe we need to pot the voltage to the MAP and trick it?
Fix the problem?
What problem? Nothing is wrong mechanically except this motor combination just doesn't tune well with the parameters designed into the software.

[FLTRI]

"What possible data in datamaster will lead you to why my engine has low kpa."

Ron,
Please post your DataMaster files here and we will all take a look to see where this anomaly is occurring. We all can possibly learn from this.
Thanks
Bob

[hotroadking]

that is why I suggest he move  to a Power Commander
and have it dyno tuned, the PCV might just solve the problem

It's one of the things you just have to chalk up to experience
and hang on the wall of shame or fame and move on.

If I put in cams that came on at 4K and I wanted cams that came
on at 2500, then relocating all the sensors, changing pipes, changing
intakes etc are not going to make the cam change it's way.

So I need to pull them, sell them and get a different set of cams.

Same with pipes etc, put on some XYZ and find they are too loud for
cruising, change the pipes.

Have you talked to any of the manufacturing companies for your cams,
intake, injectors, heads or pipes?  What do they say (besides our product
is designed to work perfectly)   You have something in the combo
that isn't working, so you have to figure it out vs simply trying to
trick the system into a solution.   

[Steve Cole]

Ron

I have my facts straight and all your PM's along with what you've posted. There is an issue we all can agree on that, it has nothing to do with Mastertune, Vtune or Datamaster. Yet I've asked you for information to try and help you. If you do not want my help that is fine.

[glens]

I've never felt the O2 compensate for a heat soaked iat yet. Only when it cools off some does the running return to where it was tuned.

Here's a thought, Ron.  Maybe your lambda probes are toasting and operating more non-linearly than the ECU is considering, and this is why you get what you described in that excerpt?  Maybe your bungs are too short?  Hahaha!

[rbabos]

Regarding the low KPA
Same here as you recall.
My theory in my case, short cam relative to the cubic inches, mid range compression, and timing on the advanced side at idle and off idle at low throttle openings. Just the perfect factors to make neck snapping torque, plus put the TTS out of the range the software works efficiently.
Maybe we need to pot the voltage to the MAP and trick it?
Fix the problem?
What problem? Nothing is wrong mechanically except this motor combination just doesn't tune well with the parameters designed into the software.

Your post pretty much sums it up.
Regarding my iat, comparison testing the old and new, the new has more resistance than the old when hot so I shoved it back in the hole to compare. Between FLTRI's afr suggestion and the new sensor I go three heat soaked starts that I would consider normal. As for the light load areas, don't think it made much if any difference. Still get the odd miss every few seconds in third gear steady state rpm around the 2000 area.
Ron

[glens]

... there are three modes that the ECM fuel control works in, Open Loop, Closed Loop and Closed Loop Learning.

So what exactly triggers CLL?  Can we understand it to be occurring by seeing certain O2 integrator activity in our intermittent data snapshots?

The only time the AFV's learn anything is in closed loop learning but they are used to correct fuel mixture all the time.

That's a very clear statement.

that is why I suggest he move  to a Power Commander
and have it dyno tuned, the PCV might just solve the problem

It may well not if indeed there's a problem such that the stock ECM is having trouble.  He's already running this area open-loop, and this presently wobbly platform is precisely what the PC-V would be working off of.

[FLTRI]

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