TTS Cal Files ???

[WVULTRA]

Wondering if those in the know could clear something up for me on the 176 series Cals.............. In the latest Cal File Listing the PC176-002 map (1690 HO) for '07 and later Touring states it uses:

"pistons, 258 cam, heads, and intake"


When I look at the Tuning File Comments in Mastertune, it states:

File Name: PC176-002-B1.MT7

Application: 2007-2009 Touring Exhaust with O2 SensorsConfiguration: 1690 HOComponents:

-- 25 deg Injectors
-- A/C and Breather Kit
-- 3 7/8" Big Bore Cylinders
-- 3 7/8" High-Compression Forged Pistons
-- Performance Cylinder Heads
-- .569" Lift 252/260 Duration Camshaft
-- Performance Touring Mufflers


What has me confused is the Cam Specs above in the Tuning File Comments are for an SE 257 Cam (.569" Lift 252/260 Duration).    

Recently installed Andrews 54H cams in the 107, and IMO an SE 257 map such as NO176 would be closer cam-spec wise than PC176 if indeed PC176 was developed for the SE258 cams.

Any comments or insight would be appreciated.

     

[lonewolf]

Just a guess but I think it is a 258 cam. The SESPT lists it as a 258 in the cal descriptions and in the comment box. I have the HQ's 575's and just changed to the NO map (TTS) from the PC176. Ve tables tuned so differently. Map 1 is NO and Map 2 PC. The NO makes more power, but the bike is actually quieter. The PC map made 94/106. the NO made 102/118.

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[strokerjlk]

I have wondered the same. 257 or 258?
interesting russel.
going to have to try the NO Cal. .... thanks a lot russel .....another tune on my bike LOL
the no cal. is for a 50 mm T/B and 4.9 inj. this would be the diff in ve's vs the pc cal. IMO.

[lonewolf]

I know, sometimes I think I put on more miles on the dyno than the road. Other differences between the two, PC 115 cu in, NO 127 cu in ( I am using 4.89 injectors). The PC never had decel pop and the NO could not get rid of it with the afr table, had to use the ve tables (also notice the injectors don't completly shut off on decel with the NO). Bike starts a hair quicker with the PC ? The weird thing is the difference in sound, but haven't played with the timing down low.

[Don D]

Holy crap that is a lot of power differance
Good job Russell
It now appears these base maps are more critical than I thought.

[WVULTRA]

lonewolf:

Your mention of the SEPST cals got me to thinking, so I did some research of the last SERT 4.77 files and the latest 2011 SESPT files.

In ver. 4.77 SERT, the file descriptions are:

176PC:  --SE258 Cam P/N 25137-00

176NO: --SE257 Cam P/N 25155-00


In the '11 SEPST, file descriptions are:

176PC:  --SE258 Cam P/N 25474-06

176NO: --SE257 Cam P/N 25473-06. Will also work with SE258 Cam P/N 25474-06. 

Also noticed in the latest SEPST Cal File listing both 176NO and 176PC show under Cam:

SE-257/SE-258


So, it apprears PC or NO would probably work with either cam in the hands of a good dyno tuner; but IMO the NO map appears to have been developed for the 257s.

I have also heard that with all the different maps that were designed for the SERT, TTS, SEPST, etc. there may have been certain maps that were actually developed/tested for specific engine combinations and various other related maps were "spin-offs"/interpolations of the actual development/test maps.

I find your results very interesting.  You mentioned a difference in sound with the NO being quieter.  Was this for the better or worse, sound wise?  Also interested in your build specifics.

I too have a set of 4.89 SE Injectors on the bench to install.  Just a hunch my build might make better numbers with the 54H cams plus injectors.........but still just a hunch.......   

Thanks for the feedback.

[Don D]

This is where the value of a 4 gas would be beneficial IMO. if injector timing was off AFRs could be brought in but unburned HC would be very high and an indication of a mismatch.
I just wish the developer would allow adjustments with the cam timing parameter. there certainly are a lot of other bells and whistles, why not this? Perhaps it is not as simple as that one new adjustment table, variable rather than constants based on the CAL

[strokerjlk]

I have also heard that with all the different maps that were designed for the SERT, TTS, SEPST, etc. there may have been certain maps that were actually developed/tested for specific engine combinations and various other related maps were "spin-offs"/interpolations of the actual development/test maps.

  Bingo we have a winner

[lonewolf]

WV, with the NO map the bike just doesn't have the "nasty" sound of the PC. It is a HQ's 107 with rhinehart tru duals. The only difference between the two runs is the map. Both done on the same day. The bumps on the lines are where my vpc hits. I can actually feel it on the dyno. I guess now I will try the NI map.

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[glens]

I have also heard that with all the different maps that were designed for the SERT, TTS, SEPST, etc. there may have been certain maps that were actually developed/tested for specific engine combinations and various other related maps were "spin-offs"/interpolations of the actual development/test maps.

  Bingo we have a winner

So?  How would you do it?

[rbabos]

WV, with the NO map the bike just doesn't have the "nasty" sound of the PC. It is a HQ's 107 with rhinehart tru duals. The only difference between the two runs is the map. Both done on the same day. The bumps on the lines are where my vpc hits. I can actually feel it on the dyno. I guess now I will try the NI map.

I've tried the NO and NI. Not a lot of difference from my seat of pants tuning. Ni seems less refined with all the 127 cells already in place, and needed a touch more ci in the constants to tune away from max,  but for some reason I kept coming back to this one and worked the best overall tune with it. It will be interesting to see your results with real tuning equipment.
Ron

[rbabos]

I have also heard that with all the different maps that were designed for the SERT, TTS, SEPST, etc. there may have been certain maps that were actually developed/tested for specific engine combinations and various other related maps were "spin-offs"/interpolations of the actual development/test maps.

  Bingo we have a winner

So?  How would you do it?

Well from my perspective the tts was marketed to give the impression an inbred person would get a perfect tune with it. Since cam operations are critical , wouldn't a more specific calibration to some of these cams make that tune more of a posibility?
Ron

[WVULTRA]

WV, with the NO map the bike just doesn't have the "nasty" sound of the PC. It is a HQ's 107 with rhinehart tru duals. The only difference between the two runs is the map. Both done on the same day. The bumps on the lines are where my vpc hits. I can actually feel it on the dyno. I guess now I will try the NI map.

lonewolf:

That's impressive results from switching maps.   

I've had the PC map constants up to 117" and had to reduce the stock injectors from 3.91 to 3.51 to keep the VEs from maxxing.  So, going to go back to first base and give the 4.89 Injectors a try.

And I plan on trying both PC and NO.

IMO, the Rinehart's require a lot of time and effort to get a good tune; but they're well worth the effort.

Have you played with the Timing Tables in either map?

Thanks for all your info/feedback!