TW21 in a stock 2005 Softail Deluxe

[Warhawk]

My wife rides a 2005 Softail Deluxe.  It's been modified to fit her, and for touring, but the engine is bone stock.  Stock breather, stock piipes, 100% bone stock.  I have a couple of questions.

1) For peace of mind I am going to install the H-D hydraulic tensioner conversion. While I'm in there, I'm thinking I may as well add a TW21 cam.  My goal is to have a better running, and a COOLER running bike.  How far off will I beon the EFI mapping if all I do is the cam swap, no other changes? 

2) If intake and exhaust changes are necessary, what are the absolute quietest slip ons for the Deluxe?  Is there a low buck EFI controller that will work with a canned map?

3) I have a set of 95" jugs with KB pistons (from an AMS) kit.  What would adding these do to questions 1 & 2?

If all this gets too expensive, I'll just do the hyd tensioner kit and call it good.

I plan on doing all the work myself, I was an aircraft technician in my younger days and do all my own wrenching.  I've been into dirt bike engines down to splitting the cases and repairing transmissions.  This air cooled HD motor can't be any worse than that.

[Jeffd]

do a google search of "Joe Minton build".

[Warhawk]

I've read that a dozen times.  My questions are about leaving the intake and exhaust stock with a TW21 cam.

[Jeffd]

supertrapp 2.1 can be almost as quiet as stock.  stage 1 air cleaner really not necessary I know someone who made good numbers using stock air box on a 26 andrews cam with 2.1 supertrapp.  With some of the new tuners coming out probably pick up a used PCV dirt cheap.

[sfmichael]

I'm no expert but I think that cam would work fine in an otherwise stock motor.
Air cleaners typically only add power at relatively high rpm, so I wouldn't sweat it, and maybe down the road you could just replace the stock element with a K&N type stock element replacement when it's due. Couldn't hurt and should flow more air than the factory element.
Leave the exhaust alone or, if an '05 is like an '03 - and I think it is, take a long tapered punch and just drive a hole through the center of the internal plug(s) that is situated about 12" upstream in the factory muffler(s). Anything short of knocking it all the way out won't increase noise much, and it's a no cost modification. Putting a 5/8-3/4 inch hole through there has got to reduce backpressure significantly and the bike won't be too loud.
If you're going to go big-bore, then you might as well go a little farther with some mild head mods and calculate (and obtain) optimum compression. That's quite a bit more commitment. I'd pass on that if you're trying to keep this super cheap.
I'll catch flak for this recommendation, but as far as EFI control, you could try a Dobeck/Techlusion DFI fuel adder. They're simple, cheap, and easy to install and tune for anyone with decent mechanical knowledge. I shopped eBay and bought mine for under $200 (for the better one that is a direct wire-in model, not a splice-in type).
I think you can do all this and keep it under a grand, or close.

[smoserx1]

Instead of going that route, why don't you try this route:

http://www.andrewsproducts.com/motorcycle/cams/T88_99_Conv_install_Kit.htm

Get you some 21N cams instead of the TW21s.  It will cost about the same (might even be cheaper), but it will be far easier to install.  No pressing or oven/freezer crap anymore, and you won't have to worry about that pesky silent inner chain or those outer ball and roller bearings anymore.  There are far less special tools required for this installation.  you can get a complete kit from Herko at:

http://www.flyingwperformance.com/

You will end up with a real 07 and up type valve train, not a "hybrid."

I am getting ready to do the exact same thing this weekend on a 99 FLHT.

[wolf_59]

My goal is to have a better running, and a COOLER running bike.   This will only be accomplished thru tuning. I converted my 04 Fatboy to closed loop using an 05 ecm and TTS Mastertune it was a lot easier than it sounded and the bike is running great, I would save $ elsewhere
  If intake and exhaust changes are necessary, what are the absolute quietest slip ons for the Deluxe? SuperTrapp
I have a set of 95" jugs with KB pistons (from an AMS) kit.  What would adding these do to questions 1 & 2?More power on the low end but again it will need tuned

IMO I would skip the Hyd tensioner set up and do the 95 kit with the TW21 add the TTS and convert to closed loop

[PoorUB]

I've read that a dozen times.  My questions are about leaving the intake and exhaust stock with a TW21 cam.

Go ahead and leave the AC and exhaust stock. IMO, the air cleaner and exhaust don't do much untill you get the engine wound up, and even then you might lose 5 HP. With the 21's you are not lookig for HP at 5,000 RPM any way. I believe you will need to get a tuner on the bike and get a tune to get the best out of it. You will not find a map for cams and stock AC and pipes and the exhaust is usually the first thing to go.

Just so you don't feel alone, I get tempted to put cams in my 2010 Ultra, and I would leave the AC and pipes stock if I do.

[Scooterfish]

You have 2005 so you may have the weak valve seals. Be sure to update while you have it apart if they have not been updated.

[boooby1744]

I've read that a dozen times.  My questions are about leaving the intake and exhaust stock with a TW21 cam.

Go ahead and leave the AC and exhaust stock. IMO, the air cleaner and exhaust don't do much untill you get the engine wound up, and even then you might lose 5 HP. With the 21's you are not lookig for HP at 5,000 RPM any way. I believe you will need to get a tuner on the bike and get a tune to get the best out of it. You will not find a map for cams and stock AC and pipes and the exhaust is usually the first thing to go.

Just so you don't feel alone, I get tempted to put cams in my 2010 Ultra, and I would leave the AC and pipes stock if I do.

Not even a K&N replacement in the stock airbox?

[Warhawk]

Thanks for all the responses.  My wife is definitely NOT a hot rodder, at least not on the bike.  But she could use a little extra passing power, especially when we ride in the mountains.

There is another option, and that is to just go in and replace the spring loaded tensioners and add the cams. But as cheap as the HD conversion is, and with a better oil pump, seems silly to go to all that trouble and not upgrade the tensioners.

I have considered a DFI type tuner, a friend has a SE Race Tuner that I think will work.  I've used a DFI before with good results for everything except the gas mileage.

I think I have a K&N filter for the stock breather around here someplace, that's a great suggestion.  The holes in the stock plastic backing plate can be opened up for better airflow too.

I hadn't thought about the valve seals. When I had an '05 Ultra, mine had bad seals and used oil.  Her bike has 35K on it now with a problem, so the seals must be OK.  Would definitely replace them if the head come off though.

Thanks again for all the responses.

[Sonny S.]

TW21's in an 88" ..... great choice   

[R.Bingham]

My wife rides a 2005 Softail Deluxe.  It's been modified to fit her, and for touring, but the engine is bone stock.  Stock breather, stock piipes, 100% bone stock.  I have a couple of questions.

1) For peace of mind I am going to install the H-D hydraulic tensioner conversion. While I'm in there, I'm thinking I may as well add a TW21 cam.  My goal is to have a better running, and a COOLER running bike.  How far off will I beon the EFI mapping if all I do is the cam swap, no other changes? 

2) If intake and exhaust changes are necessary, what are the absolute quietest slip ons for the Deluxe?  Is there a low buck EFI controller that will work with a canned map?

3) I have a set of 95" jugs with KB pistons (from an AMS) kit.  What would adding these do to questions 1 & 2?

If all this gets too expensive, I'll just do the hyd tensioner kit and call it good.

I plan on doing all the work myself, I was an aircraft technician in my younger days and do all my own wrenching.  I've been into dirt bike engines down to splitting the cases and repairing transmissions.  This air cooled HD motor can't be any worse than that.

I have an 03 fatboy that I put the gear drive version of this cam in (21G). It has SE 16 Gauge Double Barrel Exhaust, SE Air Cleaner and a Stage 1 download. I did not remap the ECM after the cam change. So far after about 7000 miles I have had no issues. No pops,pings stumbles or anything. Yes I do relize that I'm leaving some performance on the table without a tuner and a dyno tune but right now the budget doesn't allow for that.

Since yours is bone stock you might want to consider some sort of fuel manager. A TFI might be a good choice,especially since you are already familiar with it. If fuel mileage starts to suffer you can try adjusting the pots back some.

This cam will definitely give her more passing power. I have been very pleased with the results of mine.

I would second the recommendation of going with the conversion kit like Herko sells instead of the SE cam plate upgrade with old style cams. I don't trust the silent chain with the new style tensioners. I have heard of one failure already because the silent chain developed a kink.

If you decide to go with the 95 kit then you should definitely get a better tuner i.e. TTS or SESPT of even the new Revolution Performance turner. The Rev Perf tuner won't require a dyno tune or hours of VE tuning. It is just plug and play.

[ClassicRider2002]

Your wife has my 3rd favorite model (FXR2 & RKC or RKC A FXR2 LOL take your pick are my first two) that is a sweet bike, I love the appearance/ stance of that bike...........soooo anyway, lol:

You have a 2005 unmolested Deluxe....... I would start by having the run out checked.  NEXT, I personally am running the Hydraulic Chain Tensioner Set Up in my 2002 RKC with the Andrews 21"N" cam, of the three possibilities:
1)  oem old style chain tensioner (orange tenioner shoes)
2)  gears (are best if you have no to little run out)
3)  06 Dyna, 07 models hydraulic chain tenioner set up wiTh newer oil pump is the easiest to install and arguably the best set up when considering that you no longer are running on bearings that can create more valve train noises....

The 21 is a great cam if you take the build out to the end, but if you don't want to spend money on heads, pipe, high lift rockers, pistons, hd gaskets....... then you might give some consideration to leaving that baby stock.  You won't see or feel much in terms of "performance" gains with merely doing a "cam" only, in the "88 inch" build.......but if budget is the issue right now and you want to piece it altogether later down the road (with an entire receipe then figuring out what you want to do from the 3 options listed above combined with the 21 will provide an excellent "platform" from which to start your "genuine" "MOUSE CAM BUILD"......... I say come on and "let's" get started!!!!!!

Regards,

"Classic"

[Sonny S.]

 >>>You won't see or feel much in terms of "performance" gains with merely doing a "cam" only, in the "88 inch" build<<<

That statement Sir......is false 

[Tsani]

Warhawk -
I ride the same year and model.
I am running the Andrews 21N cams and yes, you will notice the difference in a 88. If you do the 21n's, you will get the upgrade oil pump and tensioners. The way to go in my book. You will need to retune. Good idea to change those valve seals if you are doing the 95 and have the heads off. Might want to do them anyway. Running the stock slip-ons, you will leave about 5hp on the table. I am running cycleshacks myself and fine they are not obnoxious unless you stand on it. IMHO, gear drive now overated in a mild build with good runout. No issue with the new Hyd Tensioner system in the 40kmi I have put on and they are quiet, no gear whine which I didn't want. Yes, the bike should run cooler, but mostly do to the retune. If you don't want to pull the heads, use the SE tapered pushrods. I got an entire kit from a member here who sells it, Herko, very complete kit and a good guy to do business with. The cams, new tensioner setup with oil pump, plate, hardware, pushrods, lifters (may as well while your in there), all for around 900. I plan on doing the 95 bump this winter, but as an 88, you will like the change. Oh, also running the K&N 1309 filter kit. And I didn't do my valve seals as I don't think mine has the oil issue, but I will do them if I bump up to the 95. As for a tuner, I did mine with the SERT. I plan on taking it to have it Dyno tuned esp. if I do the 95. But for now, it runs goods. No over heat and my gas mileage runs between 38 to 51 depending on my throttle usage

[ClassicRider2002]

>>>You won't see or feel much in terms of "performance" gains with merely doing a "cam" only, in the "88 inch" build<<<

That statement Sir......is false 

Hmmmmmm I guess we will need to see a person's dyno result for a 21 modification without any other change to see the percentage of "performance"....... What I can say specifically is that one can see/feel 100 HP and 107 lbs of Torque from a "complete" 21 "Mouse Build" build which is about a 72% gain for HP and about a 42% gain for Torque,
I know this because of my own dyno results.  I am just saying that don't expect huge results if the 21 is the only modification...........and believe me I am a "defender" of any "Mouse Build" whether in "complete" or "partial" form.......

Now back to the merits of the original Thread...

You guys go "easy" on my comments above about "not seeing/feeling much" lol....besides, as I just mentioned above, I would enjoy seeing any dyno results showing specific HP and Torque gains from "only" a 21 modification and nothing else to see what such results would be.

Regards,

"Classic"

[Sonny S.]

Just sayin, I've installed a few cams in 88"ers, and I have rode the bikes. Heck, I have one ! There has ALWAYS been a noticeable difference on the dyno and the street.
If Warhawk is considering TW21's in an 88" bike, I would hate to see bad information influence his decision....that's all   

[bigfoot5x]

If you already have the 95" pistons and jugs, you might as well use them unless you are saving them for something special. That change is free except for gaskets and most of the gaskets are in the kit for the cam change. As for the slip on muffler question, we used the HD SE mufflers. The newer ones have an open design but are only a little louder than stock. This was important to my wife as her ears will ring if she rides too long and the noise is too loud. These mufflers have a little more throaty sound but not loud. The question becomes does the newer design retro fit your older bike. I'm not sure what year the new design came out.

[Jeffd]

I agree with Sonny S on this.  I have put a 21's in stock 88 EG and RK and noticed a big difference.  my EG was a carb bike but the RK was efi and I don't remember what he used as a tuner but I think it was just the stage 1 download. I think seat of the pants 21 in 88's are more noticible then stock cams and 95"

[05FLHTC]

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,29608.0.html

[ClassicRider2002]

Sonny S.
.........If Warhawk is considering TW21's in an 88"er, I would hate to see bad information influence his decision....that's all   

LOL

You GOT to be kidding me.........lol nope you're not, you said it and believe me saying not to "expect much from a 21 modification only in a 88" motor is giving out "bad" information?  I'll answer that as you already have....and you are saying I am.......lol, I never thought I would be on this side of the "equation" with regards to the 21, lol but here I am.....so until I see some numerical "proof" each rider can decide for themselves. 

Heck if you want to get right down to it doing a $400.00 gear change over to 3.37 final gearing would give more "seat of the pants" responsiveness than even going to the 21, as merely a cam change, but then everyone would be moning about the rpms being higher at highway speed, lol and it's only a net of 218 rpms difference @ 75 mph (3306 [3.37] vs  3088 [3.15]).

I believe more of the "truth" exists in helping people to realize that what they are searching for sometimes with more power will cost more than they think, instead of comitting incremental steps to an end, the "real" budget is typically more than originally planned.  If the original poster understands the bigger picture and that is to not be discouraged by one's initial results if they do not meet one's "original" expectations as one typically has after spending nearly a $1000.00.  In other words in my opinion the 21 is a great platfrom from which to build, but to think one is going to receive a huge "boost" in power/performance from only a "cam" modification well I believe that is probably more in error, but once again any dyno would answer this question with better accuracy.

Regards,

"Classic"

[Sonny S.]

thanks for posting that Greg 

>>>My before #'s   73.20HP and 78.18 Torque and after 85.40 and 88.38  Still getting good gas mileage as well.<<<

yup...can SEE it...and bet ya FEEL it 

[Sonny S.]

>>>until I see some numerical "proof" each rider can decide for themselves.  <<<

Look up

[ClassicRider2002]

thanks for posting that Greg 
>>>My before #'s   73.20HP and 78.18 Torque and after 85.40 and 88.38  Still getting good gas mileage as well.<<< yup...can SEE it...and bet ya FEEL it 

Sorry Sonny don't know who Greg is, butttttttttt if you are referring to the dyno results in the above post, that dyno for the 21 isn't relevent to my point......as the dyno mentioned above is of a bike that is running an after market exhaust ie: D&D Fat Cat and a Screamin Eagle A/C, my point was running only a "cam" modification.


My point above was in reference to doing a 21 cam modification without any other modifications as I believe that was the direction the original poster was heading towards.

Regards,

"Classic"