Dyno Tuning Experience With Big Boys Cycles Bean

[strokerjlk]

There is nothing gained only things lost when you go from proper Closed Loop operation to Open loop.

the biggest loss is..heat!
enjoy sporty 48.

[whittlebeast]

Steve

Try an experiment.  Tune a stock Sporty per you own TTS instructions.  I assume you can get one to run perfect in no time at all.  When done tuning, let the owner put about 1000 miles on the bike.  Then do a generic o2 data log on a cold start motor.  Ride the bike for one hour in about as many different riding conditions as you can find.  Then post the dm3 and the matching tune for all to see.

No fair using $30000 dynos and a $10000 4 gas.

AW

[Steve Cole]

You forgot about using our in cylinder pressure equipment too. I will see about finding a local customer with a Sportster.

[FLTRI]

There is nothing gained only things lost when you go from proper Closed Loop operation to Open loop.

the biggest loss is..heat!
enjoy sporty 48.

IME, proper VE calibration to 14.2:1 AFR to run closed loop during cruise operation cools running a lot from "as factory delivered". Then run open loop @ 12.8-13.5 depending on build and riding style outside of cruise for best performance (hp/tq).

This way the owner get the best of both worlds (economy and performance) which is what we should be offering IMO. Not just peak power, but also best cruise mileage.

Anyone can simply tune open loop and fatten up AFR.

The engine will run cooler for sure...maybe not best performance and/or best mileage but cooler. Maybe considerably richer than necessary to for cooling. 
Bob

[FLTRI]

Steve

Try an experiment.  Tune a stock Sporty per you own TTS instructions.  I assume you can get one to run perfect in no time at all.  When done tuning, let the owner put about 1000 miles on the bike.  Then do a generic o2 data log on a cold start motor.  Ride the bike for one hour in about as many different riding conditions as you can find.  Then post the dm3 and the matching tune for all to see.

No fair using $30000 dynos and a $10000 4 gas.

AW

Why not simply offer the data files you have that show what you are referring to? Since you have had the issue you have the data to illustrate it?

This is exactly what SC needs to see what his product is producing, right?

Waiting for him to find the right Sportster and run through the tests you have stipulated will take an undetermined amount of time when you possess all the data needed to prove your point.

Please post it up for all to see and learn from Andy! We all want to learn and you have the data.
Bob

[whittlebeast]

I bet Sporty 48 has a set off the new software.  I was just wanting to see what a log looks like coming off the bike when used by someone that is really good at using the software as intended.  My stuff is all fairly "tweaked" after vtuning was finished and would be a non typical example.

AW

[Sporty 48]

I am not done tuning.
This is too important to leave half understood.
Since I only have one Harley, this is the test vehicle, have two copies of the Big Boys calibration though.
Too many good people here have valid points, they might not be opposing points either.
My bike is open to experimentation, just looking to learn and not toast the motor is all.

[FLTRI]

I bet Sporty 48 has a set off the new software.  I was just wanting to see what a log looks like coming off the bike when used by someone that is really good at using the software as intended.  My stuff is all fairly "tweaked" after vtuning was finished and would be a non typical example.

AW

So are you saying you have deleted all the data files that show what you are referring to?
If so too bad because those data recordings are what it takes to show SC where the issue(s) are to be found.
So please take another look-see if you may just have calibrations, data logs and v-tune files to illustrate your statements.
Thanks,
Bob
PS - Anyone else who has these files that show the anomalies this poster is experiencing please post them up. Data is paramount to resolving issues not statements of opinion alone.

[BVHOG]

After recent information/advice given from a well known cylinder manufacturer my buddy was told  to run even as rich as 13.5 at cruise on a large cube bike. Now, I wan't a valid answer of how you are going to accomplish that in closed loop.
You wan't to run a relatively stock bike in closed loop with a basically stock exhaust configuration and pump gas friendly compression then have it but don't try to tell people that their new 120r or 117 build is at its best in closed loop. You are simply building too much heat in these big motors trying to accomplish that. Yes, it can be done but after 20 thousand miles which motor is going to be in better condition?  If you are worried about MPG then by all means buy a Prius, or better yet ride a bicycle (closed loop chain of course).

[FLTRI]

After recent information/advice given from a well known cylinder manufacturer my buddy was told  to run even as rich as 13.5 at cruise on a large cube bike.

Nothing quite like the friend of a friend hot scoops! Heard it through the grapevine.

Did the cylinder mfg tell your friend the engine would run too hot @ <70kpa @ 14.2?

Did the cylinder mfg offer to your friend why he felt 14.2 AFR for large ci engines could not survive during cruise?

Did your friend indicate to the cylinder mfg the engine would be run entirely in closed loop or just in light cruise?

My personal bike runs 14.4-5 in cruise and has over 25k miles 2up fully loaded in >100deg weather. It is a 117" twin cam. I run 13.5 everywhere else and get 42 mpg consistently performance riding through the mountains.

I also know SC has a customer with a HD 120" running closed loop 14.6 @ cruise and 14.2-5 everywhere but WOT.

VE tuning is the key to reliability. For example take a bike that the closed loop operation runs @ 14.2 AFR but in open loop, due to poor VE calibration, produces 15.5 when accellerating.

Since closed loop is the only time the engine runs at decent AFRs, everytime the system comes out of closed loop it runs lean/hot.

The engine eventually will overheat and fail especially if pulling up hill for long durations.

Some would assume it was due to closed loop operation that caused the failure when it was, in reality, due to poor VE calibration in open loop NOT the richer running closed loop.

We have many >103 ci engines running 14.2 (close loop) in cruise conditions without issues after years of running hard as well as touiring.

Bob
Bob

[wurk_truk]

After recent information/advice given from a well known cylinder manufacturer my buddy was told  to run even as rich as 13.5 at cruise on a large cube bike.

Nothing quite like the friend of a friend hot scoops! Heard it through the grapevine.
I heard it DIRECT from the MFG
Did the cylinder mfg tell your friend the engine would run too hot @ <70kpa @ 14.2?
Yes
Did the cylinder mfg offer to your friend why he felt 14.2 AFR for large ci engines could not survive during cruise?
Either excessive loads like trailering or not enuff fuel to cool engine back down from making a bunch of heat
Did your friend indicate to the cylinder mfg the engine would be run entirely in closed loop or just in light cruise?

My personal bike runs 14.4-5 in cruise and has over 25k miles 2up fully loaded in >100deg weather. It is a 117" twin cam. I run 13.5 everywhere else and get 42 mpg consistently performance riding through the mountains.

I also know SC has a customer with a HD 120" running closed loop 14.6 @ cruise and 14.2-5 everywhere but WOT.

VE tuning is the key to reliability. For example take a bike that the closed loop operation runs @ 14.2 AFR but in open loop, due to poor VE calibration, produces 15.5 when accelerating.

Since closed loop is the only time the engine runs at decent AFRs, every time the system comes out of closed loop it runs lean/hot.

The engine eventually will overheat and fail especially if pulling up hill for long durations.
The MFG in question states that bigger builds tend to do this in closed loop... hill climbing, and that once hill is crested, 14.2 isn't enough to cool back down well enough
Some would assume it was due to closed loop operation that caused the failure when it was, in reality, due to poor VE calibration in open loop NOT the richer running closed loop.

We have many >103 ci engines running 14.2 (close loop) in cruise conditions without issues after years of running hard as well as touiring.

I agree, but a 103 makes no where the heat of a 113 up to??? does...

Bob
Bob

Dammit Bob...  I don't wish to say this companies name... but you KNOW who it is.  The owner of that company has stated that he has NO axe to grind.  He just prefers... I do not tell outright who he is.  But...  I CAN assure you that he is convinced that TUNING is the key to proper parts longevity anymore...  It IS the number one thing we ALL need to address.

Now...  I HAVE been playing around a bit with CLB voltage calcs and have been listening to folks that SC says is BS... but WAIT!!

Lets say we DO have a 'corn' issue in the midwest.  I want SOMEONE, ANYONE to answer ONE easy question.  And I want you to send me a PM, too.
As... NONE of THIS is written in stone and that cyl mfg even admits he is searching for proper solutions...  OK?  It's NOT cut and dried regardless of WHAT the NON kool aid camp says... dude calls me weekly because I'm the 'opposing team', OK?  I haven't much tuning knowledge on bikes, but have a decent understanding of what makes the automotive side of things WORK.

In the voltage tool...  Stoich is 14.68 or whatever, right?  And we pick our offset from that and the highest offset available is 14.2, or so... right?  Now... the corn haters say that since corn has an Stoich of around 14.2 to begin with and all the crap then gets skewed, right?  THIS is THE argument.  Right?

Hmmmm  if I enter 14.2 as stoich in the voltage calculator... then we can achieve a closed loop bias of 13.8 afr using 798 as the voltage.

My easy simple question......  when corn is added to fuel, does the new resultant fuel mix alter what the lambda sensors 'see' as stoich?  Does it ACTUALLY work as the voltage tool describes?  Will the ECM 'see' that the gasohol is really 14.2 and adjust from there?  With E10, will I see 13.8 on my Wego while in closed loop while on a data run?  Corn HAS O2 in ITS mix... so does adding cornohol to gasoline make the O2s see a bit lean and richen the mixture simply from the O2 content?

I do NOT care about MPG, because cornogas will have less BTUs per unit anyways...  I'm wondering about a cool enough burn to keep everything copacetic. 

It's MY belief that closed loop is a good thing...................  cannot help it.  I agree wholeheartedly that CL is an invention of the EPA... but so is EVERYTHING on a car once they abandoned carbs... and it IS such an improvement between 1978 and now its ridiculous.  In 2008...  I owned a completely street legal Chevy that outputted 500hp from a small block...  TOTALLY STOCK...  So to tell ME that the EPA is strictly evil IS BS!!!  Obtaining THAT level of power IS dependent on fuel control and closed loop controls (feedback AND feedforward) using a bit better tech than our bikes... but Tech nonetheless.  A couple years ago... someone put a Z06 through the quarter at 10.9... and the car WAS 100% stock.  (I think it was at Englishtown or some NJ strip with just super duper air that was like 1000ft below sea level)... but a 10 sec car!!!  STOCK!!!  EPA mandates did this.

Bob... could you post, or PM me YOUR cal from YOUR bike?  Or paste up a jpeg showing your AFR table and allow the rest of us to see what minimum closed loop looks like?  Please?  I LIKE the idea of having a tune (for larger engine) almost completely open looped, but...... with some touches of closed loop to allow proper fuel control for the variances of the fuel itself...  I'm thinking CL might be best right at light cruise only.  Idle would be OL and anything making power would be OL, too.

Behind the scenes...  I'm loosing this particular battle  (that corn is SO evil, we MUST open loop everything).....  but to declare a winner of this 'war'...  is a long way off.

Me... on the 100% stock Rat...  I'm going to start playing around a bit once I move back to Columbus.  I want to SEE FOR MYSELF that a bike CAN be v-tuned, can be closed loop (minimum cells) and have THAT tune stay stable.  THEN... each upgrade through the 'stages'... I want to see if that goal can be met at every stage of upgrade.  At a minimum... I will have the bike a 107 by next spring... if times improve and money is a little easier to come by...  I will do a 120.

[whittlebeast]

Seriously,  I would love to see what Steve would do for a tune on a stock Sporty if it was going to be his bike to ride and the only tool he had to work with is the same tool most of us have to work with.

Most of time I get involved with a Sporty tune, the owner has one of a very short list of tuners and has wound up frustrated with the results.  I almost always advise to get TTS, follow the instruction as best you can, Vtnue about 8 times, set the AFR tables and then send me a generic o2 data log.  I would love to see the results when done by Steve.  Heck, if the tune ran great, it would be cool to have included in the standard release TTS files.

AW

[strokerjlk]

Anyone can simply tune open loop and fatten up AFR.

really? so before 2006 there was no need for dyno tuners?
it isnt just fatting up the AFR

VE tuning is the key to reliability.

wanted to agree with something, this was all I could come up with.

[strokerjlk]

I am not done tuning.
This is too important to leave half understood.
Since I only have one Harley, this is the test vehicle, have two copies of the Big Boys calibration though.
Too many good people here have valid points, they might not be opposing points either.
My bike is open to experimentation, just looking to learn and not toast the motor is all.

why? you got a tune that only a hand full of tuners in this country can deliver. why screw with it? if you think you can do better or make it better "street tuning" you are sadly mistaken. be careful

[BVHOG]

VE tuning is no doubt the most important part of calibrating a bike. But if your VE's are accurate then open loop running will also be accurate and best of all consistent.(No adaptive fuel)
Yes, fuel will change things a bit but I have traveled across the country(8 days 3480 miles) and had no issues nor did the other open loop, pre 07 bikes that were on the trip. The ecm has full capability for elevation changes in open loop as well so that argument is moot.
I don't see the narrow band sensors as the problem nor the clb's but the adaptive fuel can raise hell if the sensors get a bad reading due to various engine builds and exhaust configurations.
By reading here you would think the pre 07 bikes have no capability to run properly at all and that is just outright bull"Potty mouth".
Come to think of it, the only problem we had on that cross country trip was the damn carb bike that wouldn't start at the top of Bear Tooth Pass.

[rbabos]

Anyone can simply tune open loop and fatten up AFR.

Really? Last time I was in my shop I don't remember seeing a dyno and a means to measure 13.2 to set the ve tables. All I have is what vtune gives me for this task and then richen if the engine feels the need based on how it runs. Not much else you can do with just TTS. Not picking on you Bob, but the statement is open to attack.
Ron

[wurk_truk]

I am not done tuning.
This is too important to leave half understood.
Since I only have one Harley, this is the test vehicle, have two copies of the Big Boys calibration though.
Too many good people here have valid points, they might not be opposing points either.
My bike is open to experimentation, just looking to learn and not toast the motor is all.

why? you got a tune that only a hand full of tuners in this country can deliver. why screw with it? if you think you can do better or make it better "street tuning" you are sadly mistaken. be careful

I can NOT stress this enough.  Jim is beyond correct.  You DID get a tune that most of us would REALLY like to have.

If you want to mess around...  It's your bike... but I think you would simply NEVER improve upon this tune from Bean... especially with the tools available for Sportys to begin with.

[wurk_truk]

Hey Ron... leave Bob alone, dammit!!!

[FLTRI]

If your engine is tuned with accurate VEs AND your O2 bungs are designed for the O2 sensor to work properly...why would anyone opt to run entirely in open loop???

Why don't you anti-closed loop activists recommend to all your customers and friends to convert back to carbs and breake points. After all there was nothing wrong with that AND you could rebuild the carb and file the points out on the road.

I do wholeheartedly agree it is much easier to jet a carb and adjust points gap than to understand, diagnose, repair, and tune EFI issues...but if it was easy anyone could do it.

As SC has stated many times there are 2 choices:
1) Close loop (vtune) tune with O2 feedback verified and fixed if not right.
2) Open loop tune and leave it in open loop. Ignore the technology to avoid the issue.

Bob

[whittlebeast]

1) Close loop (vtune) tune with O2 feedback verified and fixed if not right.

That fairly well sums it up

[hrdtail78]

"The engine eventually will overheat and fail especially if pulling up hill for long durations."

"The MFG in question states that bigger builds tend to do this in closed loop... hill climbing, and that once hill is crested, 14.2 isn't enough to cool back down well enough"

Did RD give you any temps on this or any data logged files that shows this?  Seems it would be pretty easy to back up with good solid data.

You chicken little guys have to understand that coming on here and repeating what you have heard or overheard from a friend of whatever... Doesn't really cut for some that look at data and like to see hard facts.  First it is out of context.  I wonder what he says about the down sides of running 13.5 in a no load cruising situation?

Bigger engine = more power, which is heat.  Questions have to come up like was the oil system that is designed for the 96.  Is this also modified?  Most I have seen like to level out about 3 quarts.  Is 3 good enough?  Air and oil is what cools these thing.  I look at fuel not as a cooling agent, but as something that can produce heat if not correct.  I understand the cooling and lube properties but I am going to rely on air/ oil.  You can pick that statement apart, but remember with in reason people.

Then we have to look at carb big inch builds.  I have seen posted about still getting 40-43mpg.  They cant be doing that at 13.5 can they?

[Sporty 48]

This is looking more and more like a "Mine is Bigger" contest.
Open loop, closed loop and both is the answer.
And how is a man supposed to learn how to tune unless he works at it? Come on!

[whittlebeast]

There is really no such thing as too much heat with a well tuned motor.  What you are dealing is simply an under cooled motor.  Ducati has what is on paper a very similar motor pulling 162 hp in the Diavel stock.

AW

[rbabos]

Hey Ron... leave Bob alone, dammit!!!

I was going to but now I'm a non KoolAid Activist.
Love this forum.
Ron

[FLTRI]

Open loop, closed loop and both is the answer.

Bingo!! 
Note: Nobody championing closed loop has stated the entire running area should be in closed loop...for all builds/exhausts...just the cruise area...and only IF O2 sensors are mounted peoperly. The high load ares should be left in open loop so the tuner can use whatever he wants for AFR.
Bob