Top End Knock

[96flhpi]

Got a knock in my valve train that sounds like a collapsed lifter but I've replaced the lifters and pushrods (running Velva-Touch, replaced with stock to check, now back to the Velvas), triple checked p-rod adjustment and made sure they weren't bent, checked tappet screen, checked oil passages, and made sure I've got oil at all the rocker shafts.  Also put stock cam back in place of the Andrews J I put in to be sure it wasn't that.  Knock is bad on start-up but goes away, well to a more normal shovel valve-train noise, when warm.  After being off for an hour knock is back.

Anything else I could check before I open her up again?  Already had the heads off twice - over winter to fix rocker leaks, then again because I didn't re-torque quick enough and had leaky head gaskets - and wouldn't mind avoiding opening again if I can.  BTW, rocker arm/shaft tolerances all within spec.

Any way to see if oil is crossing the rockers to the valves - was afraid if I pulled the left nut with it running the rocker shafts could creep out and create a big problem.  Only other things I can think of are sticking valve and not ENOUGH oil is hitting the top end.  Got a pressure gauge and it reads normal, but does that tell you how much oil's going up top?

Bike is a pretty much bone stock '82 FLH.

As usual, thanks in advance.

[Old Crow]

I had a noise like that.  Turned out to be the valve spring caps hitting the inside of the rocker boxes.  Check for wear marks on the vavle spring caps and the rocker boxes.  I just relieved the rocker box a bit so they'd clear.

[hkd76]

Might want to check for a worn out tappet roller.

[vern]

i had the same thing as old crow valve springs hitting the inside of the rocker box. and the reason is, the valve seats were either ground to thin or the seats were pocketed cause they were soft and old for leaded gas. vern

[Old Crow]

i had the same thing as old crow valve springs hitting the inside of the rocker box. and the reason is, the valve seats were either ground to thin or the seats were pocketed cause they were soft and old for leaded gas. vern

In my case every trouble I've had with this motor can be traced back to the previous owner not reading the instructions when he installed the S&S 4 3/4" stroker kit.

a)left out bypass tubes when he relocated oil return holes from the head(at least he drilled the cases in tht right place).
b)rear cylinder and left case half cracked from cylinder base not being parallell to crank
c)the aforementioned valve spring caps hitting rocker boxes from not being clearenced when the headwork was done for the cam
d)one of the damn pistons was in backwards!!!!!!

Guess he never took time to read the instructions that came with the kit.  They actually tell you to check every one of those things.  Oh well, I've put it together this time, now I'm sure it's right.

[pappyfreebird]

my ol girl has a knock on start up ,,ony cold n it started wid a new top end,,n still there after new heads new lifters (rollers fine) figured mebbe slap,,but she been that  way fer 40k n still ony uses 1/4-1/2 qt  in 2k changes...

[96flhpi]

Thanks for replies - sorry for late response but been crazy busy at work (should be grateful for that nowadays).

Doubt it's lifters as Velvas are less than a year old and noise didn't change when I put stock tappets back.  Springs hitting the covers is a possibility - I lapped the covers before replacing them as they were warped.  Would that stop after the bike warms up, though?

Pappy - may have the same deal as you, makes me feel a little better.  Not even 100 miles on new pistons and cyls.  Don't know how old head work is but guy who bead blasted them for me disassembled them to do so and said they were in great shape - he couldn't find a reason to do any additional work.  PO said he had them redone less than 2K miles before I bought it last May - didn't have receipt so I figured, Yeah sure, but it looks like he wasn't lying.

Gonna do a comp. check to see if there's anything way screwy - I know with rings that aren't broken in yet I'm not gonna get a accurate picture but like I said, may tell me if somethings way off.

[96flhpi]

Ran a comp check and got 127 front 126 rear.  Great to see but does it mean anything at all regarding my clackity clack?  Like I suppose I can rule out a bent valve but what about a sticking one?  Would a sticky valve cause comp issues?

[Old Crow]

On the valves hitting the rocker box. 
Yes, after the engine warmed up the noise went away...just the opposite of what you'd expect with a lifter noise.  Guy that had it before me put a brand new set of Jim's lifters in there to try and fix it, so I wasn't the only one who thought it was a lifter.
The sticky valve may or may not show up on a compression check.  Sometimes they don't stick when you're only cranking the engine with the starter.  Does it run ok, or does it miss?  Sticky valve probably would show some kind of misfire.

[96flhpi]

Thanks Crow - she's running fine.  Guess I'll pull the heads and see if I can find anything.  Just hope to get the time - supposed to be nice this weekend in the NE and would really like to get out for an extended putt.

Anything to look for while I'm in there other than obvious stuff like marks on rocker covers and making sure rocker bushings/valve ends are getting oil and aren't scored. 

Don't have a valve spring compressor, is it worth buying or seeing if Autozone has one to rent me to check out valve stems?  Would a sticky valve clack, always thought it'd be more of a tick, but what do I know?  This noise is a clack, like one lifter isn't getting oil, but it's coming from the rocker and it goes away when she warms up.

[pappyfreebird]

wouldnt be a wrist pin ?? tightinin when hot n slidin to n fro when cold? seems wont take long to loose comp in that cyl. thou as groove begins..like nomad once said a brite light in plug hole will show a scratch startin..my noise is fer chure in front cyl. too  kin ya define fer chure where is..also as you jus said..valve guides kin slide cold too n stick as heat..whilst in there look ove cyl. fer any scratchun on sides,,nawt front er rear but sides..

[96flhpi]

Hey Pappy - already thought of the same thing (not wrist pin but looking at cyl through plug hole) - got a peek in the rear cyl and it's clean but can't get the angle right to peek in the front without removing tank.  Like I said, gonna bite the bullet and pull heads yet again, picked up my gaskets today.  Doubt it's a pin - got them super spiral keepers and had to hit pistons with a heat gun to get pins in (as per manual).  If anything they'd probably be tight cold and sloppy when hot.

Sounds like its front intake to my naked ear but when I put a screwdriver handle to my ear and hit all the rocker caps confuses the hell outta me - sounds like it could be any one of them.  Hopefully I'll get it going by the weekend.

[96flhpi]

Pulled front head tonight.  Only thing unusual was exhaust rocker arm was getting a little hung up on something.  Pulled it out and there was some lint and what looked like dried up loctite crumbs but softer on the shafts.  Haven't had time to clean and look at bushings yet but arm looked fine.  Remember wiping down arms with a clean but I guess not lint free rag when I put it back together before hitting them with assem. lube.  Gonna pull rear and clean everything up tomorrow to get a better look.  Hopefully I got some lint blocking an oil passage and problem solved but it's never that easy is it?

Found more scoring on cyl than I expected for 90 miles but only on thrust sides and since I can't feel it or catch a thumbnail in there I'm gonna assume it's normal (PLEASE tell me it's normal).  First time re-doing a top end myself so I'm not sure what's normal or not.

[pappyfreebird]

i cant say on the scorin at 90 miles,,,ain seen one that young,,,wouldnt think thered be much if any thou,,now you touched on wrist pin beyun tight mebee,,now this will cause slap,,,tight she ll flop as rod goes up n around,,,you did reem em etc right,,, i have a good bro wid his own shop ,,,so i have him bore match pistons wrist pin fit n then i flip em together,,,seems to werk great fer me...i be curious wud yer end result is... i think  mine is a lil bit loose fit in front cyl. makin a clackin noise when cold...once run a few minutes shes fine rest of day,,,unless real cool like spring er fall say below 50s,,all oil flowed good too,,well keep us posted

[96flhpi]

Sorry Pappy - meant pin is tight in piston holes, not in rod.  Rod fit was fine - didn't ream cause bushings weren't replaced and pin fit to spec.  Old pistons were the same coming off, had to heat em a little to tap pin out.  Guy who machined my cyls told me that to do it way so don't think its a problem.

Let you know what I find after pulling other head and cleaning everything up.

[81hogman]

96
Check the valve seats in the heads. I had one come loose, and it made a sound just like a bad lifter. Good luck in your search.

[96flhpi]

Pulled rear head last light.  Still no big surprises, but I noticed when pulling p-rods that I could move intake rocker arm back in forth (end to end on shaft) enough to make a tapping sound.  Exhaust didn't make a sound when I checked it.  End play on intake is higher than on exhaust - .021 vs .015 but still within spec.  Front head's arm end play both .014 to .016.  Didn't see if made a noise when still on head cause, well, I didn't know to check.  Now that they're off the heads all arms will tap a little when I move them up and down the shaft (keep your jokes to yourself ) but of course there's no oil in there right now to fill up space.

What do you think, could that be it?  Man I hope so, can't find another cause and hate to put it all back togther and not have fixed the problem.  Gonna have my machinist counterbore the spacers to tighten up all rockers end play to around .008.

[vern]

were the valve spring retainers hitting the rockerbox?

[96flhpi]

were the valve spring retainers hitting the rockerbox?

Nope - if the springs were hitting the rockers I'd know it right?   Like shiny marks and scratches on the sides of the boxes and scratches on the springs?  I was really hoping it would be something obvious, even if it cost $$ to fix, well not big $$, just to be sure I fixed it before I button it up again. 

[pappyfreebird]

prolly found it bro,,been awhilst but i think with out readin my secret notes,,that 4-10 is the best clearence on the rockers..they sound a lil loose so when warm theyed tightun up,,too tight ain good at all..4-8 4-10 think i kin member oh  hell no,,but do have it writtun,,i have a bro shop owner turn em on lathe thats why  yeup thats my excuse

[96flhpi]

Yeah Pappy - .004 to .025 is book spec. but read about that counterbore trick on another site and experienced wrench said he likes 'em around .008, so .004 to .010 would make sense.  Write it down again in case there's an exam .

[pappyfreebird]

yea mayun thats it 5-10  ,,, book specs is alot of allowance..the ols cool shovel builders r better then the book,,they awready gots the best tolerences from trial n error,,,like turnin the ends instead of spacers..wheres the pix bro...

[96flhpi]

Pix of the scoot or the counterbored spacers?  I know, I know - BOTH.  Gonna see the machine dude tomorrow, meantime here's the love of my life doin her best Pinky Tuscadero.  Too small to reach the pegs, too scared to go on a real ride, but goes up and down the driveway sitting on the tank in front of me and begs me to go out and get a side hack - who's got it better than me?


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[96flhpi]

So after eliminating every possible cause I was left thinking piston slap.  Pulled the cyls and rear was normal wear but lookee what I found on the front.  Keep in mind that these pistons have about 90 miles on them. 

So the question is, could this be from installing incorrectly, or is it time to find a new machinist?  Assembly lubed everything up and made sure (best I could) that piston was square with cyl.  Haven't had time to pull pistons to measure fit, and, lesson learned, didn't think I needed to double check dude's work prior to installation.

Thanks for any opinions.

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[96flhpi]

Here's a pic of the other side of the same piston.

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