Target tune closer to coming to market?

[joe_lyons]

TTS locks everything out so no you can't use PV to pull the tune and use target tune with their cals.  Copy and paste can go a long way as that has worked for some company's for years.  I don't believe dynojet is marketing this as an end all answer for everything but a great tool for getting you closer than other setup could.  Live changes is the biggest deal,  much better than the  record, change, recheck method IMO.  Yes there will be some exhaust/motor combos that will bring grief but that's life.  Bob if your having some issues with PV cals have you talked to dynojet, Jamie or myself?

[Jamie Long]

Any guarantee the conversions will provide the same tune quality as the file provided before the conversion?
In other words, if I have a TTS Mastertune calibration how can you convert it to a TT file  and expect the same run quality as the TTS file provided?
I have always found conversions take a lot for granted and assume tuning strategies are the same from mfg to mfg. They just never seem to be close enough to justify using a converted file rather than starting from scratch with a purpose build calibration rather than a converted one.
Time will tell how this system will work but we have learned over time tuning assumptions (ie: converted cals) do not turn out as expected...especially as applied to big, high performance builds due to all the inherent variables induced when making big changes.
Bib

Lets not muddy the water as we are talking about 2 things here now; A) converting a PV map to be Target Tune compatible and B) converting a non PV map to work with PV.

To convert a Power Vision map to be Target Tune compatible it requires starting with a .pvt file which is the standard PV tune format. Changing a "standard" Power Vision tune to a TT tune requires changes in the code to allow the ECM to interpret the 0-5v signal from the TT wideband module. End user will continue to see and work forward with the same familiar tuning tables.

Power Vision allows you to read and extract the tune that is in the ECM, and the tune can be saved as a .pvt file if desired. When doing this process it is not actually converting anything, it is simply assigning the definitions to be read in WinPv. This has been the case since the product was introduced. We do not support calibrations from other manufactures for use with Power Vision nor do we recommend doing so, you also cannot read ECM's that have been locked as joe_lyons noted

[07heri]

What exactly is Target Tune doing?  My situation....2007 Heritage...with I guess they call it PV1.  So now we have Target Tune on the scene.  What is it doing that will help me?  Will I have my entire VE table in closed loop now?  And then retune the VE tables?  Can I run closed loop at say 14:0?  is this only for the closed loop fans? I used the PV to set up my VE's but afterwards I run it at 14:0 open loop.  Who will benefit from TT and who wouldn't, is what I'm asking?  Sorry for being a dumbsht but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this new add-on.  I'm guessing this will only be a benefit to the closed loop fans.  If there's more benefit to it, someone please educate me, and the rest that are scratching their heads.

[FLTRI]

Thanks for clearing that up Jamie. I didn't think you were referring to calibrations outside the Dynojet family even though technically it can be done by using the aftermarket tune from other tuners but not recommended.
Just trying to get an accurate read on expectations of TT.
Bob

[Mirrmu]

What exactly is Target Tune doing?  My situation....2007 Heritage...with I guess they call it PV1.  So now we have Target Tune on the scene.  What is it doing that will help me?  Will I have my entire VE table in closed loop now?  And then retune the VE tables?  Can I run closed loop at say 14:0?  is this only for the closed loop fans? I used the PV to set up my VE's but afterwards I run it at 14:0 open loop.  Who will benefit from TT and who wouldn't, is what I'm asking?  Sorry for being a dumbsht but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this new add-on.  I'm guessing this will only be a benefit to the closed loop fans.  If there's more benefit to it, someone please educate me, and the rest that are scratching their heads.

any replies to this?

[q1svt]

What exactly is Target Tune doing?  My situation....2007 Heritage...with I guess they call it PV1.  So now we have Target Tune on the scene.  What is it doing that will help me?  Will I have my entire VE table in closed loop now?  And then retune the VE tables?  Can I run closed loop at say 14:0?  is this only for the closed loop fans? I used the PV to set up my VE's but afterwards I run it at 14:0 open loop.  Who will benefit from TT and who wouldn't, is what I'm asking?  Sorry for being a dumbsht but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this new add-on.  I'm guessing this will only be a benefit to the closed loop fans.  If there's more benefit to it, someone please educate me, and the rest that are scratching their heads.

any replies to this?

Here is one of the prior discussions...
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,79964.0.html

there are a couple more if you use the search features.

[Steve Cole]

Any guarantee the conversions will provide the same tune quality as the file provided before the conversion?
In other words, if I have a TTS Mastertune calibration how can you convert it to a TT file  and expect the same run quality as the TTS file provided?
I have always found conversions take a lot for granted and assume tuning strategies are the same from mfg to mfg. They just never seem to be close enough to justify using a converted file rather than starting from scratch with a purpose build calibration rather than a converted one.
Time will tell how this system will work but we have learned over time tuning assumptions (ie: converted cals) do not turn out as expected...especially as applied to big, high performance builds due to all the inherent variables induced when making big changes.
Bib

Lets not muddy the water as we are talking about 2 things here now; A) converting a PV map to be Target Tune compatible and B) converting a non PV map to work with PV.

To convert a Power Vision map to be Target Tune compatible it requires starting with a .pvt file which is the standard PV tune format. Changing a "standard" Power Vision tune to a TT tune requires changes in the code to allow the ECM to interpret the 0-5v signal from the TT wideband module. End user will continue to see and work forward with the same familiar tuning tables.

Just to make sure on only the above marked section are you talking about Code or Calibration area? Two completely different things and one has to use the correct terminology when speaking about them.

[Mirrmu]

Have read that.

Lets say have sent current PV map to dj and is now TT ready, I load to PV with winPV then flash to bike.

Have PV mounted on handlebar, start bike and go for ride, what do I do next?
Thanks

[glens]

Confirm it's working, then unmount the PV and throw it in the drawer.  You won't need it for a good long while. 

Hopefully.

[glens]

Can I run closed loop at say 14:0?  is this only for the closed loop fans? I used the PV to set up my VE's but afterwards I run it at 14:0 open loop.

Why are you afraid of closed loop operation? 

With this setup you're supposed to be able to run closed loop everywhere, at any lambda value you want.

[Sunny Jim]

So from a DIY perspective! the purchaser will provide and engine spec and DJ will provide a map and the TT kit. Presumably.
My other unanswered question is- ' what if I install TT, then down the road, change my engine specs, eg. Cams, compression etc etc.
where do I stand??
.

[joe_lyons]

There are a couple of things in the cal to change if cams are changed but you can use the same cal. 

[GregOn2Wheels]

Since my understanding is that Target Tune makes closed-loop operation possible for any user-selected lambda value, will open-loop operation still be possible in areas selected by the user and if so, how will these areas be designated?  It seems like the current strategy for selecting open-loop areas wouldn't (and shouldn't) work with TT.  I ordered a TT from Fuel Moto yesterday so I guess I'll find out soon enough.

[rbabos]

Since my understanding is that Target Tune makes closed-loop operation possible for any user-selected lambda value, will open-loop operation still be possible in areas selected by the user and if so, how will these areas be designated?  It seems like the current strategy for selecting open-loop areas wouldn't (and shouldn't) work with TT.  I ordered a TT from Fuel Moto yesterday so I guess I'll find out soon enough.

Not sure I follow. If You can dial in the required afr in closed with WB why would you want open loop?
Ron

[GregOn2Wheels]

I want to be able to specify open-loop in areas where I'm not getting reliable samples. If perfect sampling from 875 rpms at 10 kpa through 6500 rpms at 100 kpa is a requirement to use TT,  I don't think very many will have success with it.

[Jamie Long]

What exactly is Target Tune doing?  My situation....2007 Heritage...with I guess they call it PV1.  So now we have Target Tune on the scene.  What is it doing that will help me?  Will I have my entire VE table in closed loop now?  And then retune the VE tables?  Can I run closed loop at say 14:0?  is this only for the closed loop fans? I used the PV to set up my VE's but afterwards I run it at 14:0 open loop.  Who will benefit from TT and who wouldn't, is what I'm asking?  Sorry for being a dumbsht but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this new add-on.  I'm guessing this will only be a benefit to the closed loop fans.  If there's more benefit to it, someone please educate me, and the rest that are scratching their heads.

Individual benefits will vary based on the bike, specific modifications, and what the end user is looking for. Target Tune incorporates Bosch wideband sensors into the Delphi ECM and allows for full time closed loop operation over a considerably broader AF range than the factory sensors, much of the the closed loop strategy has also been changed to suit this application. You have full control of your AF/Lambda targets which allows for closed loop fuel control in areas that would normally be open loop such as WOT. The new TT-Auto Tune application on the PV is also unique in that it does not change the AF to 13.0 like AT-Pro allowing users to build their VE table to the same AF target as their calibration.     

[Jamie Long]

Have read that.

Lets say have sent current PV map to dj and is now TT ready, I load to PV with winPV then flash to bike.

Have PV mounted on handlebar, start bike and go for ride, what do I do next?
Thanks

The general procedure would be to install the Target Tune hardware, flash your TT calibration, then test run. Target Tune gives you as much as 25-40% +/- closed loop fuel control depending on the calibration and application. If there is not a close base map or if additional tuning is required you would use the TT-Auto Tune application, it all comes down to the complexity of the combination that is being tuned and overall accuracy of the base map. The PV does not need to be mounted with TT unless you are using the TT-Auto Tune application or want to monitor/log data.

[hrdtail78]

I want to be able to specify open-loop in areas where I'm not getting reliable samples. If perfect sampling from 875 rpms at 10 kpa through 6500 rpms at 100 kpa is a requirement to use TT,  I don't think very many will have success with it.

Remember what this system does, and have realistic expectations.  It changes the software in the ECM to be able to deal with 0-5 volts of a LSU 4.2 wide band sensor.  You take out stock sensors and place the WB's in their place.

Garbage in/ garbage out is still in the picture.  I don't see anything with this system (or any other) that address this with either hardware or software.  It still needs the human element.

[Jamie Long]

So from a DIY perspective! the purchaser will provide and engine spec and DJ will provide a map and the TT kit. Presumably.
My other unanswered question is- ' what if I install TT, then down the road, change my engine specs, eg. Cams, compression etc etc.
where do I stand??
.

If you make a major change to your combination it is always best to start with the closest map available for a given combination, however due to the unlimited amount of component changes one can make it is simply not possible to have a map for every setup. If you had a good working calibration and you changed the air cleaner or exhaust system many times you can work off of the same base map, if TT closed loop does not fill in the blanks you can use the TT-AT application to populate corrections. If you were changing the cams for example this would be best suited to an alternate base map, we would then use TT-AT to do the heavy lifting and get the VE's corrected.   

[Jamie Long]

Since my understanding is that Target Tune makes closed-loop operation possible for any user-selected lambda value, will open-loop operation still be possible in areas selected by the user and if so, how will these areas be designated?  It seems like the current strategy for selecting open-loop areas wouldn't (and shouldn't) work with TT.  I ordered a TT from Fuel Moto yesterday so I guess I'll find out soon enough.

Target Tune sets the entire AF/Lambda table to closed loop, we do however have the ability to set the thresholds based on MAP.

[Jamie Long]

I want to be able to specify open-loop in areas where I'm not getting reliable samples. If perfect sampling from 875 rpms at 10 kpa through 6500 rpms at 100 kpa is a requirement to use TT,  I don't think very many will have success with it.

Remember what this system does, and have realistic expectations.  It changes the software in the ECM to be able to deal with 0-5 volts of a LSU 4.2 wide band sensor.  You take out stock sensors and place the WB's in their place.

Garbage in/ garbage out is still in the picture.  I don't see anything with this system (or any other) that address this with either hardware or software.  It still needs the human element.

Correct, like any tuning device Target Tune cannot fix the shortcomings of some engine/exhaust combinations and potential tuning issues induced. A tune can only be as good as the rest of the combination. 

Some examples that come to mind that widebands, closed loop, and Target Tune simply cannot remedy would be using the inapropriate exhaust system for a given application, poor overall exhaust system design, incorrect O2 location, mismatched engine components, intake & exhaust leaks, just to name a few.   

[Mirrmu]

Thanks Jamie

[GregOn2Wheels]

I want to be able to specify open-loop in areas where I'm not getting reliable samples. If perfect sampling from 875 rpms at 10 kpa through 6500 rpms at 100 kpa is a requirement to use TT,  I don't think very many will have success with it.

Remember what this system does, and have realistic expectations.  It changes the software in the ECM to be able to deal with 0-5 volts of a LSU 4.2 wide band sensor.  You take out stock sensors and place the WB's in their place.

Garbage in/ garbage out is still in the picture.  I don't see anything with this system (or any other) that address this with either hardware or software.  It still needs the human element.

I understand and agree completely.  My question was essentially, how will us "human elements" compensate for the garbage areas that most bikes have?  With PV today, we can use open-loop tuning in areas where we find garbage.  Jamie's response seems to indicate that we'll have to adapt to a method that requires us to work with (or trick?) the system in "garbage areas" instead of today's method of going open-loop in these areas where garbage sampling would result in erroneous closed loop trims values.  As long as these "thresholds" that Jamie mentioned give us adequate flexibility to "throw out garbage", it might be a superior way of doing things since it will/should/might eliminate unwanted trim correction carry-over into open-loop areas of the tune that we see today.

[q1svt]

Depth/length of sensors are different between Narrow Bands [more so the 12mm) and Wide Bands, and how/where the sensor samples the air.  Narrow Bands have the spiral cuts coming down from the end of the sensor and the cuts need to be directly into the flow.  Wide Band sensors read the flow from the very end of the sensor so they do not need to be as deep as NB, but the full ends still need to be in the flow.

Yes if you have bad placement nothing is going to help other than moving them, but WB are less sensitive to death & placement.

[Admiral Akbar]

I want to be able to specify open-loop in areas where I'm not getting reliable samples. If perfect sampling from 875 rpms at 10 kpa through 6500 rpms at 100 kpa is a requirement to use TT,  I don't think very many will have success with it.

Remember what this system does, and have realistic expectations.  It changes the software in the ECM to be able to deal with 0-5 volts of a LSU 4.2 wide band sensor.  You take out stock sensors and place the WB's in their place.

Garbage in/ garbage out is still in the picture.  I don't see anything with this system (or any other) that address this with either hardware or software.  It still needs the human element.

The STOCK ECM already does this! Look at the voltage on the O2 sensors when cold with ANY logging tool and you will see the Delphi system starts at 5100 mv or 5.1 volts and then trims in as the system comes on line! No modification to the Code is necessary to do this. In the calibration area you just turn one set off and the other set on, it's simple for those of us that know. This is just the engineering mode being switched on just the same as Revolution Performance did, with the difference being you get to adjust on it yourself, in a limited manor. Expect the same results as before as that is all it can do and is why, it was NEVER intended to be used as a production environment product to start with. It simply is just not up to the OEM level of expectation for reliability over the various road conditions.

For the record there is several different ways to run the STOCK ECM and CODE with different O2 sensors connected.  you can set it up to run one sensor for both cylinders, one per cylinder in one of three modes, Narrow Band, BroadBand (as this is using) or Wide Band using a true Wide Band sensor system. No Code ever gets changed to do this just tell it which mode you want to use in the calibration area just like you would adjusting a VE value. This was all done back in ~1999 when the ECM was developed by Delphi and has been in ALL production level ECM's that HD has used on a Delphi EFI equipped bike. Mind you I would not do it on a 2004 and earlier ECM as there is trouble there!

I would assume that the ECU runs some type of RTOS that allows for different modes, loading and unloading of tables.  The questions I have are:

1. Can applications (subroutines is the ancient word) be down loaded and executed? 
1a. Can it perform system calls?

2. I would assume that the "engineering"  mode allows switching the sensor input through use of a table to get AFR (or some binary representation of it) to the main section that adjusts trims..  May even store AFR for logging..  Is this correct?

3.  The fixed modes you talk about mainly use embedded tables for specific Afr sniffers.. Correct?

4. Is there a main execution loop that does all the calculations and performs the operating cycle of the motor that you don't have access to?

5. And,, I assume that all you can really modify is tables that you have access to plus switch some modes?

6. How much of this interface documented and how much is hacked.. (don't really expect an answer here..  )

I'll agree about using engineering modes as they not be as robust or filter the data differently.. I seen serious issues over using diagnostic modes when the system is up and running for longer periods of time.