Target tune closer to coming to market?

[azlou66]

He mentioned a different Tuner, neither PV or TTS, for their Turbo builds.
Ron said something about two bar systems................

Interesting... adds a 2bar sensor and runs TMax

http://traskperformance.com/product/thundermax-fuel-injection-module-wauto-tune/

You nailed it.

[q1svt]

 
As more factual information becomes known and more people use PV TT with all kinds of builds, we (those interested in full time close loop) might very well have two good options 

[hrdtail78]

As more actual information becomes known and more people use PV TT with all kinds of builds, we (those interested in full time close loop) might very well have two good options 

I would look at whole log files to see what is really going on.  Not just screen shots guys are posting that are selling the product.  Why are they showing us just part of the picture when they could be posting full log files?

[hrdtail78]

https://app.box.com/s/c1u12szjqj4pgp74pwxh09y2hg1c1j6l

Looks like it will have excellent fuel milage.

[GregOn2Wheels]

I've been running Target Tune for about a month now and I am VERY pleased.  I'm running a Jackpot 2-1-2 head pipe and Jackpot 4" dyno tuned mufflers. These pieces work well together and the 18mm bungs put the sensors right where they need to be. If I was running something else for an exhaust system, I probably wouldn't be as pleased with TT.   It is obviously highly dependent on good sensor location, but if you have that nailed down, it's all good.

[azlou66]

As more factual information becomes known and more people use PV TT with all kinds of builds, we (those interested in full time close loop) might very well have two good options 

The biggest benefit of PV w/AT IMHO is its always working (tuning) in the rpm range I ride.
The down side is I'm not tuning in the rpm range I don't normally ride in so the overall tune isn't a polished finished product.

[Jamie Long]

https://app.box.com/s/c1u12szjqj4pgp74pwxh09y2hg1c1j6l

Looks like it will have excellent fuel milage.

If you are referring to the measured AF in this log it is not valid as the incorrect channels were logged for AF. This log has Lambda 1&2 from the wideband controller over CAN ( the CAN cable should not be used with TT) When logging AF with Target Tune the correct channels are WBo2 Lamba/AFR 1&2 from the vehicle channel list. These channels come from the ECM databus.

Lambda 1&2 are used with AT-Pro, the hardware & firmware in these two WB controllers are different.

[rbabos]

As more factual information becomes known and more people use PV TT with all kinds of builds, we (those interested in full time close loop) might very well have two good options 

The biggest benefit of PV w/AT IMHO is its always working (tuning) in the rpm range I ride.
The down side is I'm not tuning in the rpm range I don't normally ride in so the overall tune isn't a polished finished product.

I see no point in developing the upper right area anyway or the lower left. All you need is a well developed tune in the areas you ride and a hair more of those surrounding areas. If you can't hit it on the road there's no point.
Ron

[FLTRI]

As more factual information becomes known and more people use PV TT with all kinds of builds, we (those interested in full time close loop) might very well have two good options 

The biggest benefit of PV w/AT IMHO is its always working (tuning) in the rpm range I ride.
The down side is I'm not tuning in the rpm range I don't normally ride in so the overall tune isn't a polished finished product.

I see no point in developing the upper right area anyway or the lower left. All you need is a well developed tune in the areas you ride and a hair more of those surrounding areas. If you can't hit it on the road there's no point.
Ron

Let me add that any tuning cell that can be hit on a drum can be found on the street...sometimes not intentionally.
Bob

[joe_lyons]

As more factual information becomes known and more people use PV TT with all kinds of builds, we (those interested in full time close loop) might very well have two good options 

The biggest benefit of PV w/AT IMHO is its always working (tuning) in the rpm range I ride.
The down side is I'm not tuning in the rpm range I don't normally ride in so the overall tune isn't a polished finished product.

I see no point in developing the upper right area anyway or the lower left. All you need is a well developed tune in the areas you ride and a hair more of those surrounding areas. If you can't hit it on the road there's no point.
Ron

Let me add that any tuning cell that can be hit on a drum can be found on the street...sometimes not intentionally.
Bob

CYA

[hrdtail78]

https://app.box.com/s/c1u12szjqj4pgp74pwxh09y2hg1c1j6l

Looks like it will have excellent fuel milage.

If you are referring to the measured AF in this log it is not valid as the incorrect channels were logged for AF. This log has Lambda 1&2 from the wideband controller over CAN ( the CAN cable should not be used with TT) When logging AF with Target Tune the correct channels are WBo2 Lamba/AFR 1&2 from the vehicle channel list. These channels come from the ECM databus.

Lambda 1&2 are used with AT-Pro, the hardware & firmware in these two WB controllers are different.

If the data is valid enough to show how great it is doing in a screen shot.  It is valid enough to show what it isn't doing in a log file. 

Same data log as post 161 and reposted in 163. 

BUT feel free to post up the log you are getting screen shots from.  Lets take a look.  We are all here to learn or help others to learn.  Right?

[Jamie Long]

https://app.box.com/s/c1u12szjqj4pgp74pwxh09y2hg1c1j6l

Looks like it will have excellent fuel milage.

If you are referring to the measured AF in this log it is not valid as the incorrect channels were logged for AF. This log has Lambda 1&2 from the wideband controller over CAN ( the CAN cable should not be used with TT) When logging AF with Target Tune the correct channels are WBo2 Lamba/AFR 1&2 from the vehicle channel list. These channels come from the ECM databus.

Lambda 1&2 are used with AT-Pro, the hardware & firmware in these two WB controllers are different.

If the data is valid enough to show how great it is doing in a screen shot.  It is valid enough to show what it isn't doing in a log file. 

Same data log as post 161 and reposted in 163. 

BUT feel free to post up the log you are getting screen shots from.  Lets take a look.  We are all here to learn or help others to learn.  Right?

The data that was used to for the plots in my examples was completely valid, I used the channels that refer to fuel control, the data used did not include WB 1&2.

I am out of town, when I'm back in the office I will try to put some time aside to post some logs and what to look at/for, as you noted "we are all here to help and learn"

[Mirrmu]

As more factual information becomes known and more people use PV TT with all kinds of builds, we (those interested in full time close loop) might very well have two good options 

The biggest benefit of PV w/AT IMHO is its always working (tuning) in the rpm range I ride.
The down side is I'm not tuning in the rpm range I don't normally ride in so the overall tune isn't a polished finished product.

I see no point in developing the upper right area anyway or the lower left. All you need is a well developed tune in the areas you ride and a hair more of those surrounding areas. If you can't hit it on the road there's no point.
Ron

good point Ron, 

[98fxstc]

As more factual information becomes known and more people use PV TT with all kinds of builds, we (those interested in full time close loop) might very well have two good options 

The biggest benefit of PV w/AT IMHO is its always working (tuning) in the rpm range I ride.
The down side is I'm not tuning in the rpm range I don't normally ride in so the overall tune isn't a polished finished product.

I see no point in developing the upper right area anyway or the lower left. All you need is a well developed tune in the areas you ride and a hair more of those surrounding areas. If you can't hit it on the road there's no point.
Ron

good point Ron, 

If I got sucked into a friendly wager at a dyno shootout , I would want to know that my bike had been tuned to perform in that situation as well.
So for me , not just the areas I ride in ,but anywhere in the performance range.

[azlou66]

https://app.box.com/s/c1u12szjqj4pgp74pwxh09y2hg1c1j6l

Looks like it will have excellent fuel milage.

If you are referring to the measured AF in this log it is not valid as the incorrect channels were logged for AF. This log has Lambda 1&2 from the wideband controller over CAN ( the CAN cable should not be used with TT) When logging AF with Target Tune the correct channels are WBo2 Lamba/AFR 1&2 from the vehicle channel list. These channels come from the ECM databus.

Lambda 1&2 are used with AT-Pro, the hardware & firmware in these two WB controllers are different.

If the data is valid enough to show how great it is doing in a screen shot.  It is valid enough to show what it isn't doing in a log file. 

Same data log as post 161 and reposted in 163. 

BUT feel free to post up the log you are getting screen shots from.  Lets take a look.  We are all here to learn or help others to learn.  Right?

I am out of town, when I'm back in the office I will try to put some time aside to post some logs and what to look at/for, as you noted "we are all here to help and learn"

Jamie I would really appreciate that, I'm sure others would as well.

I have found some really nice hills I use to hit cells I normally can't during SANE normal operation.
Let's just say if I was going to post one of my log files on a public forum vehicle speed would be deleted...........

[rbabos]

As more factual information becomes known and more people use PV TT with all kinds of builds, we (those interested in full time close loop) might very well have two good options 

The biggest benefit of PV w/AT IMHO is its always working (tuning) in the rpm range I ride.
The down side is I'm not tuning in the rpm range I don't normally ride in so the overall tune isn't a polished finished product.

I see no point in developing the upper right area anyway or the lower left. All you need is a well developed tune in the areas you ride and a hair more of those surrounding areas. If you can't hit it on the road there's no point.
Ron

good point Ron, 

If I got sucked into a friendly wager at a dyno shootout , I would want to know that my bike had been tuned to perform in that situation as well.
So for me , not just the areas I ride in ,but anywhere in the performance range.

Well, prior to getting sucked in again, do some wfo runs to dial it in, with the exception of timing. To me, you complaint isn't realistic for what most want or need in a tune. A higher percentage of dyno tunes go for max power and run like a "Potty mouth"house everywhere else even though both are possible. Which is more important? I don't heap the tuners in this forum in that group, but we all know someone who paid big bucks more then once with no satisfaction in the end.

Ron

[q1svt]

As more factual information becomes known and more people use PV TT with all kinds of builds, we (those interested in full time close loop) might very well have two good options 

The biggest benefit of PV w/AT IMHO is its always working (tuning) in the rpm range I ride.
The down side is I'm not tuning in the rpm range I don't normally ride in so the overall tune isn't a polished finished product.

I think you may have meant PV TT is always tuning...

Downside?  FWIW Target Tuning it is always tuning, even in areas that you just ride once.  So what's better than a tune that continues to learn?  Fine yourself needing to pass a big rig convoy, ride along the beach, a nice ride up pikes pike...

I like dyno's but they are just a tool. and not everything found on the road can be duplicated on a stationary dyno.

Nothing better than a long incline and running in first/second gear up/down the rpm ranges. 

[q1svt]

I would want to know that my bike had been tuned to perform in that situation as well.

Need to ask yourself 'how much can realistically be done in a three hour tune?'

Personally I think the tuners that use a close loop product and develop a process where the tune is a joint effort between the customers riding tune and the dyno tuning will be the killer combo... Kind of like a base break-in tune with a lot of riding [adjusting tune & gathering data], then a final dyno tune. 

[98fxstc]

Personally I think the tuners that use a close loop product and develop a process where the tune is a joint effort between the customers riding tune and the dyno tuning will be the killer combo... Kind of like a base break-in tune with a lot of riding [adjusting tune & gathering data], then a final dyno tune.

[azlou66]

I would want to know that my bike had been tuned to perform in that situation as well.

Need to ask yourself 'how much can realistically be done in a three hour tune?'

Personally I think the tuners that use a close loop product and develop a process where the tune is a joint effort between the customers riding tune and the dyno tuning will be the killer combo... Kind of like a base break-in tune with a lot of riding [adjusting tune & gathering data], then a final dyno tune.

If you get an AT device dyno tuned won't it auto tune itself back to where it was???
Now if adaptive fuel is turned off it won't but then why have a device that is AT capable.

[rageglide]

I would want to know that my bike had been tuned to perform in that situation as well.

Need to ask yourself 'how much can realistically be done in a three hour tune?'

Personally I think the tuners that use a close loop product and develop a process where the tune is a joint effort between the customers riding tune and the dyno tuning will be the killer combo... Kind of like a base break-in tune with a lot of riding [adjusting tune & gathering data], then a final dyno tune.

If you get an AT device dyno tuned won't it auto tune itself back to where it was???
Now if adaptive fuel is turned off it won't but then why have a device that is AT capable.

In theory it should just get better... However, the unknown factor which kicks in with the trims is the fuel quality.  Lambda should handle this better than a fixed AFR tune.   AFR is going to have to do some big tweaks if you accidentally load up on 15% ethanol when the tune was built on 100% gasoline.   If you don't use adaptive, then the AFR tune is going to get real lean and short term will be very busy always.   

At least that's how I understand it.

[Karl H.]

Going from 10% to 15% Ethanol makes the mixture about 1,5% leaner. Not that much imho.

Karl

[whittlebeast]

You guys with a PowerVision and MLVHD have the tools you need to test all of this.  Take a 50 mile ride on the backroads with 100% gas and log the ride recording the AFF.  Then fill the tank with E15, ride for 20 or so miles on the backroads to to give the AFFs a little time to reset'  Now relog the same ride with E15 corn oil.

Compare the AFFs in MLVHD with scatter plots.  Bang...   You have the answers you have been debating.

And heck, you get to spend the afternoon riding the fall backroads with the wife.  What is better.

Andy

[FLTRI]

Going from 10% to 15% Ethanol makes the mixture about 1,5% leaner. Not that much imho.

Karl

If a bike is tuned with no ethanol in the fuel for best performance and mileage the AFR is on the lean side at cruise. Not lean but on the lean side....like 14.4-14.6:1.

This AFR at cruise is fine...as long as the fuel used is as tuned.
No bring on a tank with 15%+ (can be more..can be less) with out closed loop adaptive fueling and the now the bike is running leaner than Stoich (14.6:1) which increases heat and hurts mileage due to the engine not running at best performance.

The purpose of the O2 sensors are to keep a well tuned bike running at its tuned quality while introducing many different fuel formulae and variables found in different areas around the U.S.

As fuels vary, the system adjusts for the different oxygen contents to keep the tune spot on.
When refilling the system resets the adaptive assuming the bike got a load of the fuel the bike was tuned with...if not the system will relearn the oxygen content keeping the tune correct.

The only down side to adaptive fueling is if the system doesn't work correctly...then, I guess leaving the system to STFT only will just keep the system working overtime to keep up.
Bob

[rageglide]

Going from 10% to 15% Ethanol makes the mixture about 1,5% leaner. Not that much imho.

Karl

Except comparing E15 to 100% gasoline (which is still available in many places), it's a big jump.   (5.5%)
What about the blender pumps where you get an unknown amount of E85 when you expect 10% ethanol?   

Stoich Fixed ratios  are about 1 point different between E15 and 100%.  We obviously tune for richer mixtures, so you go even richer.

E15 is 13.8:1 AFR
E10  @  14.13:1 AFR
Gasoline @ 14.7:1

Stoich Lambda is 1.000 for all fuels and the O2 sorts it out. 
If the EFI map can use Lambda exclusively it's a very good justification to run closed loop.

Its' not clear to me whether the older maps convert lambda to AFR in the feedback loop or if they convert AFR to lambda up front.  Up front conversion would be safer I think.... So I suppose that's what Delphi and others are doing.

Interesting reading and it includes a table of Fuels and their AFR/Lambda values :
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/1307-wideband-oxygen-sensor/

Here's the table, Credit to Hot Rod
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