Target tune closer to coming to market?

[hrdtail78]

It uses the voltage output of the sensor.  Voltage of 450 is lambda of 1.  A voltage of 872 is .885.  This stays the same no matter what type of fuel.   

[q1svt]

  Thanks Rageglide...

Great table, I have always found the E10 data for crap california gas @ lean cruise 14.1, but now know where to tune for power specific to E10 

[hdmanillac]

What is the real part number of the Bosch O2 sensors in the TT kit ?

LSU 4.2 or LSU 4.9 ?

[tdkkart]

TT kit arrived today, of course now I've got about 12 other things on my plate between now and Saturday, and leaving for Bikes-Blues-BBQ next Thursday. Hopefully the TT will be installed and running by then......will post results when I have some.

[whittlebeast]

Someone just sent me a fairly large Target Tune log.  All I can say is Wow, nice job Dynojet.

http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Target%20Tune%20MAPxRPM%20vs%20DC.png

Andy

[rageglide]

It uses the voltage output of the sensor.  Voltage of 450 is lambda of 1.  A voltage of 872 is .885.  This stays the same no matter what type of fuel.

Right, the O2 should act the same no matter what the strategy.  Lambda sensor is an O2 sensors official name.

But is Delphi using the AFR value as the target?  Or is it targeting the Lambda equivalent? 

Put another way, (because I'm having a hard time putting this in words). 
- If .885 lambda is the target value, the actual Air to fuel ratio will change based on the fuel being used, but .885 will remain the target.  .885 lambda will be ideal

- If 12.5:1 is our target ratio, the actual Air to fuel ratio will not change based on the fuel being used.   The ECM will target 12.5:1 with diesel, Methanol, Gasoline, etc.. Obviously only one fuel in that list works best with 12.5:1

Notice in the table below Max power for all the fuels listed stays close to .85 lambda.

I am by no means an expert, and I've been trying to wrap my head around EFI tuning for a couple years.  Finally seeing the light after beating my head against the wall for a while...  Gasoline AFR's are all we ever knew in the "old days".  Unfortunately now we're lucky to get Gasoline... We now have blended "Fuels" to contend with and thats' a moving target. 

[hrdtail78]

But is Delphi using the AFR value as the target?  Or is it targeting the Lambda equivalent? 

No.  It is using voltage as a target.  Look at an older AFR cal.  You actually set the CLB table to the target voltage. 

[Jamie Long]

Lambda is absolute. AFR is a representaion of Lambda based on the stoich value of the fuel being used (ie. gasoline 14.68 X .89 Lambda= 13.06 AFR)

If you have a Lambda based calibration the fuel table refer to the actual Lambda targets in the calibration, that is easy because Lambda is absolute. If you have an AFR cal it is based on gasoline so a specific AF value (near 14.6) is used for representation (and an assumed 1.0 Lambda). Because not all fuel blends are the the same there is some math involved as far as the relation of AFR to Lambda, however this is all simply representation as in the end the ECM is looking at actual O2 voltage not AFR.

[Jamie Long]

But is Delphi using the AFR value as the target?  Or is it targeting the Lambda equivalent? 

No.  It is using voltage as a target.  Look at an older AFR cal.  You actually set the CLB table to the target voltage.

This is correct on standard non-Target Tune AFR based calibrations, however Target Tune cals do not use the closed loop bias table(s)

[Jamie Long]

What is the real part number of the Bosch O2 sensors in the TT kit ?

LSU 4.2 or LSU 4.9 ?

LSU 4.2

[rageglide]

But is Delphi using the AFR value as the target?  Or is it targeting the Lambda equivalent? 

No.  It is using voltage as a target.  Look at an older AFR cal.  You actually set the CLB table to the target voltage.

This is correct on standard non-Target Tune AFR based calibrations, however Target Tune cals do not use the closed loop bias table(s)

Nor do Lambda based tunes (non-TT). 

Sounds as if AFR based cal is a hybrid.  Using the CLB table to control the end result more so than the absolute AFR.  Presumably this is done to keep things "safe"?

This stuff keeps my brain workin over time ... 

[GregOn2Wheels]

The LSU 4.2 sensors is the one of the two small issues I have with Target Tune.  The LSU 4.9 sensors are suppose to last much longer than 4.2s and would seem to be a better choice for Target Tune which will use the sensors whenever the motor is running.  The shorter life span of 4.2s is adequate for Autotune modules where the sensors are needed only while tuning, but even in this application, I would think that 4.9s would be as good or better.  I'm seeing minimal (if any) price difference between 4.2 and 4.9 and their controllers so it makes me wonder why DJ decided to stick with the 4.2s.

[joe_lyons]

Is there a big difference in the controllers of the 4.9s vs the 4.2s?  Meaning would it just be a plug difference or are the feed and signals different from one another?

[hrdtail78]

The LSU 4.2 sensors is the one of the two small issues I have with Target Tune.  The LSU 4.9 sensors are suppose to last much longer than 4.2s and would seem to be a better choice for Target Tune which will use the sensors whenever the motor is running.  The shorter life span of 4.2s is adequate for Autotune modules where the sensors are needed only while tuning, but even in this application, I would think that 4.9s would be as good or better.  I'm seeing minimal (if any) price difference between 4.2 and 4.9 and their controllers so it makes me wonder why DJ decided to stick with the 4.2s.

  It would be easy enough to have it configured both ways.  That way if somebody wanted to use thier already purchased AT-100 they could.

[GregOn2Wheels]

Is there a big difference in the controllers of the 4.9s vs the 4.2s?  Meaning would it just be a plug difference or are the feed and signals different from one another?

Joe - from what I've read there is a pretty big difference in the controllers.

[Jamie Long]

Is there a big difference in the controllers of the 4.9s vs the 4.2s?  Meaning would it just be a plug difference or are the feed and signals different from one another?

The 4.2 & 4.9 LSU sensors require different hardware (wb controller) and firmware. It may be possible to put everything into one module. Target Tune is based on the Dynojet WB2 controller which was developed using the 4.2 sensor, now that Bosch has started distributing the 4.9 sensor to the aftermarket I would expect a transition over to the 4.9 sensor at some point. The 4.2 is still an excellent sensor, we've leaned on these things for over a decade running many thousands of them in various applications.

  It would be easy enough to have it configured both ways.  That way if somebody wanted to use thier already purchased AT-100 they could.

The current/earlier generations of AT-100 would not work with a 4.9 sensor, it also does not have the output required to plug into the OEM harness for the factory O2 sensors. (assuming you were talking about using one for Target Tune)

[hrdtail78]

The controller won't work but that doesn't mean that there isn't controllers out there that already have a can output that could be plugged into the vision or TT unit.  The hold up would be on DJ's end to configure the output of the controller so DJ knows what it is doing.   

This is the same with techno research and what controller you want to use or with TTS's analog input.   These devices let you choose different configured controllers or to configure the inputs yourself.   There are even controllers out there that allow you to use either the 2 or 9 if you know how to configure the controller for the correct sensor.   Most manufactures of the controllers will tell you what output lines up with what lambda value.

It isn't rocket science.  It is writing a user interface to allow the changing of the configuration of the input of the controller to the tuning device. 

The input of the controller for heaters is still 12v and doesn't change between .2 and .9's

That would open up DJ to use any controller and not just DJ's stuff.  I can't see them doing that.

[rageglide]

How much of a difference in life span between the 4.2 and 4.9's are we talking about?

[Jamie Long]

How much of a difference in life span between the 4.2 and 4.9's are we talking about?

Bosch states in their technical documentation the LSU 4.2 sensor has a service life of up to 160,000 kilometers or 10 years based the application and usage (doc. Y 258 K01 005-000e). They state the 4.9 has an even longer life.

[whittlebeast]

There appears to be some confusion how Target Tune works.  It is a stand alone wideband controller that has the ability to plug into the stock Harley harness for power and replaces the stock o2 sensors with wide band sensors.  It supplies the heater power as required by the widebands and it processes the data into some voltage that relates to the AFR it is reading in the exhaust.  It feeds that voltage into the stock o2 wires in the existing Harley harness.

There is also matching tune/calibration that flips a few switches in the stock ECU to get the ECU to chase this new 0-5 volt (give or take a little).  The ECU then chases the AFR target table in the ECU.  You do need a Power Vision to flip these switches and the license for the Power Vision to talk to the bike you are tuning.  If you own the Power Vision and the license for your bike, all you need is the Target Tune specific cal and the Target Tune Controller.  They go for about $450 or so.

The Target Tune hardware is Harley specific.  There is no CAN communication between the Target Tune and the bike or the Power Vision.  It does not have a 0-5 volt out that is intended to drive an external AFR gauge or controller like the Wideband2 does.

This is all as I understand the system as explained to me by someone in the know.  I personally have not played with one, but I have seen several of the logs off one and I am impressed with the results.

Andy

[rageglide]

How much of a difference in life span between the 4.2 and 4.9's are we talking about?

Bosch states in their technical documentation the LSU 4.2 sensor has a service life of up to 160,000 kilometers or 10 years based the application and usage (doc. Y 258 K01 005-000e). They state the 4.9 has an even longer life.

Thanks Jamie.

[Jamie Long]

The controller won't work but that doesn't mean that there isn't controllers out there that already have a can output that could be plugged into the vision or TT unit.  The hold up would be on DJ's end to configure the output of the controller so DJ knows what it is doing.   

This is the same with techno research and what controller you want to use or with TTS's analog input.   These devices let you choose different configured controllers or to configure the inputs yourself.   There are even controllers out there that allow you to use either the 2 or 9 if you know how to configure the controller for the correct sensor.   Most manufactures of the controllers will tell you what output lines up with what lambda value.

It isn't rocket science.  It is writing a user interface to allow the changing of the configuration of the input of the controller to the tuning device. 

The input of the controller for heaters is still 12v and doesn't change between .2 and .9's

That would open up DJ to use any controller and not just DJ's stuff.  I can't see them doing that.

Running widebands into the stock ECM and getting everything sorted is much different than configuring an analog input. Using a different wb controller with Target Tune would require the ability to completely control the outputs from the controller; there would need to be changes to the controller firmware, you would need to wire it into the factory harness, and then you have all of the stuff to develop within the ECM calibration to make everything work. As far as CAN, it is not universal; every manufacturer is proprietary so you arent going to simply plug in a different aftermarket controller. Regardless, Target Tune does not use CAN, it outputs directly to the ECM via the factory O2 harness.   

[hrdtail78]

The controller won't work but that doesn't mean that there isn't controllers out there that already have a can output that could be plugged into the vision or TT unit.  The hold up would be on DJ's end to configure the output of the controller so DJ knows what it is doing.   

This is the same with techno research and what controller you want to use or with TTS's analog input.   These devices let you choose different configured controllers or to configure the inputs yourself.   There are even controllers out there that allow you to use either the 2 or 9 if you know how to configure the controller for the correct sensor.   Most manufactures of the controllers will tell you what output lines up with what lambda value.

It isn't rocket science.  It is writing a user interface to allow the changing of the configuration of the input of the controller to the tuning device. 

The input of the controller for heaters is still 12v and doesn't change between .2 and .9's

That would open up DJ to use any controller and not just DJ's stuff.  I can't see them doing that.

Running widebands into the stock ECM and getting everything sorted is much different than configuring an analog input. Using a different wb controller with Target Tune would require the ability to completely control the outputs from the controller; there would need to be changes to the controller firmware, you would need to wire it into the factory harness, and then you have all of the stuff to develop within the ECM calibration to make everything work. As far as CAN, it is not universal; every manufacturer is proprietary so you arent going to simply plug in a different aftermarket controller. Regardless, Target Tune does not use CAN, it outputs directly to the ECM via the factory O2 harness.   

I disagree.   With what ever controller you use.  The ECM needs to be configured to that controller.  Like you state. They are not all the same.  As for as plugging into the factory harness.  Those are just plugs and can be source many places or one can just pin directly to the ECM plug.  Using the factory harness is just a customer convenience.

You don't need to change the controller output.  Even though there are controllers out there that allow for you to do this, and it is quit easy to do.  You can control the input.  What really is so hard or complicated about it.  So many volts equals this lambda.  This many volts equals this lambda.   About as complicated as an Annie decoder ring.

But like I said. DJ isn't going to open it up to use any other brand of controller, but don't blow smoke and try and make it sound like it is impossible.   Just say they want the controller sale also.

[joe_lyons]

But there is still not a real longevity issue with the 4.2s as it is so its really not a big issue.

[Jamie Long]

I disagree.   With what ever controller you use.  The ECM needs to be configured to that controller.  Like you state. They are not all the same.  As for as plugging into the factory harness.  Those are just plugs and can be source many places or one can just pin directly to the ECM plug.  Using the factory harness is just a customer convenience.

OK, who is going to develop the calibrations and do the testing? the consumer? they are also expected to find the plugs/harness to make it work?

You don't need to change the controller output.  Even though there are controllers out there that allow for you to do this, and it is quit easy to do.  You can control the input.  What really is so hard or complicated about it.  So many volts equals this lambda.  This many volts equals this lambda.   About as complicated as an Annie decoder ring.

Again, who's going to test & develop the ECM calibrations for each controller. And as far as the controller itself what does it do when there is a bad connection or the sensor dies? what does the controller do if things go south, the Dynojet firmware was written specifically for Target Tune. 

But like I said. DJ isn't going to open it up to use any other brand of controller, but don't blow smoke and try and make it sound like it is impossible.   Just say they want the controller sale also.

You do realize Target Tune IS a controller right? impossible for Dynojet to make TT work with other controllers? absolutely not as they have already done it for theirs, however it is not realistic to think they would offer Target Tune without it being hardware/software ready and leave it for the consumer to configure rather than a complete plug and play package.

You are simply trying to muddy the water