Spun out on starter crap

[Burnout]

Switching from water to bourbon....

OK here goes, Shovelhead mutt.
AM covers
9 bolt inner primary cover marked CP
9 bolt outer cover marked HK
Clutch basket with laminated ring gear starting to come apart due to incomplete starter drive gear engagement.
This is being caused by mutiple things.
1 the solenoid shift arm is bent 2wice, dogs worn unevenly and solenoid arm out of position.
2 roll pin on solenoid rod is short and slips through oval hole in shift arm.
3 outer cover has bearing boss .150" deeper than my test cover so someone put 2 bronze washers on it to keep jack shaft engaged in reduction gear. Leaving
090" endplay still.
4 With starter shaft pushed all the way into starter housing the boss on the shaft that stops the starter drive gear sits in the middle or the ring gear preventing full engagement.

My observations -

Starter shaft is not short. I have 2 other shovels apart right now same lenght and they all have the same problem (boss on starter shaft sits in the middle of the ring gear preventing full engagement.

I could cut the starter shaft housing to bring the shaft out to full engagement but that will require welding up bolt flanges as they will get too thin to hold up starter.
I thought about putting a spacer inside the reduction gear (between it and the housing) but that will run the reduction gear off the end of the starter motor gear.

Then I started looking at the housings and found there is a -73 and a -79. Anyone know the dolifference between these housings? Perhaps I have the wrong housing? I can see no difference in pictures.

Any one else seen these issues?

Anyone moved the ring gear to match the jack shaft stop and get full engagement?

[Burnout]

I found out there are two oem outer covers and they have different depths for the outer jack shaft support bearing.

The AM has used the deeper depth so one fits all. I have measured over .150" difference from a stock cover and between various AM covers. More after today's head banging session.

I'm going to replace the bent shifter arm, install a longer roll pin in the plunger rod, change the ring gear to a solid gear, then shim the jack shaft so it stays at least half way in the reduction gear, clearance the inner primary cover for the jack shaft and test.

[76shuvlinoff]

 I wish I had something better than "good luck" but that's all I got today. Sounds like you are dealing with bits and pieces from more than one bike, possibly more than one era. Makes me pity the guy that ends up with mine. 

[JW113]

Isn't the -79 version when they put a belt final drive? I know that there are some differences in the primary & such to accomodate that wide trans pulley.

-JW

[Burnout]

Well I put a non bent shift arm and 3 brass washers on to fill the gap on the end of the jack shaft. Had to bend the new shift arm so it would work freely. Had to trim the inner cover so the jack shaft did not rub on it. Had to pry the outer cover up before tightening. Starter motor was running before the drive gear got pushed up against the ring gear so I shortened the solenoid plunger rod and tried to shim the spring on the end of the rod that operates the shift arm. That might have worked, but my shim was catching on the rod and stopping the solenoid from activating the motor. Tonight I will tear it down AGAIN and remove my shim. If that doesn't work I will look into a stiffer spring (maybe double stock?) I need to get the drive gear hard into the ring gear before the motor engages. Fun stuff.......

[billbuilds]

     The -65 housing is for use with a Prestolite starter, the -79 is for a Hitachi. Only real difference in housings is the thru-bolt hole location. Is the bearing that's in our in good shape? What kind of shape is the shift lever in? The two tabs that engage the shift collar can and do wear. The SM says to replace both the shift lever and shifter collar at the same time.

     82 was the first year for belt final drive on the FLH's. The none hole primaries (inner and outer) were first used on the 83 FLH's.    Bill

[Burnout]

The -75 housing is also for Hitachi, found it in the VT catalog (no application). I could Google it for application but that won't really tell me the difference. Probably threaded or nonthreaded bolt holes to primary inner.

[JW113]

Right on Bill, I just looked and the first belt drive inner primary is a -80 suffix, for the FXB. Good call.

-JW

[Racepres]

Just a Quick reply to confirm that the Starter Housing is specific to the starter itself. Either Hitachi or Prestolite.
I have Not had any problems [Yet] other than that, and Housing ground to nothing by the Chain on those Oh So Sexy Low Glides!!!

[fourthgear]

  My 65 had a Hitachi on when I first got her , worked fine , maybe someone switched housings  I still have it  if anyone needs a Photo or measurements .
I put a Ultima , Thunderfire on it now , No issues now with compression dogging her down .

[Racepres]

  My 65 had a Hitachi on when I first got her , worked fine , maybe someone switched housings  I still have it  if anyone needs a Photo or measurements .
I put a Ultima , Thunderfire on it now , No issues now with compression dogging her down .

Shouldn't be necessary...the Hitachi Mount has a smaller mounting bolt diameter than the Prestolite which is [by memory] 1/4-20. And yes...once I tried modifying a hitachi housing to accept a Prestolite motor...Didn't work out !!

[fourthgear]

  This 65 is the first electric start Panhead I have ever owned or worked on, many kick only  , plenty of electric leg Shovels though . I was surprised that the Hitachi was ever on there .

[Burnout]

Well I think I have all the mechanics good. I am having a starter trigger timing issue. Either the starter is triggered to early (before the drive gear is engaged with the ringgear) or the starter fails to trigger. I keep bouncing back and forth. I know a full battery is important and I left it on the Tender overnight, but no joy. I am going to try a different solenoid tonight.
Hoping the solenoid is not strong enough to collapse the little spring and trigger the starter.
My cut away cover won't work on this bike so I am working by braille with smoke and morrors!

[Burnout]

I wound up spacing the solenoid .320" instead of the original .250".  I could maybe go a little more. It will crank correctly 19 times out of 20. Seems about right for that old system. Same symptom drive gear misses engagement to the ring gear.

If I take it back apart again I will back cut the ring gear teeth on a bevel to match the drive gear for easier engagement.

[76shuvlinoff]

Spaced it farther out to delay the electrical contact?
+ .070" doesn't sound like much but it's interesting. I wouldn't have thought of trying that. 

Mark

   

[Burnout]

Yes I originally shortened the little solenoid plunger but that did not work because it reduced the pressure on the starter contacts. So I made a thicker spacer to give the same effect and put a double gasket on the solenoid and replaced the solenoid plunger pin i shortened. I think I could add another .060".

It looks like it will have to come back apart for other reasons so I will have the chance to back cut the ring gear and add to the spacer.

[Snuff™]

Gotta say, " You gotta lot more patients than I do!".  I started having starter engagement problems almost 20 years ago.  Ended up saying, "F#@K IT!" and installed a kicker!  Mine engages for just a few seconds and then free spins for another few seconds.

[76shuvlinoff]

Once I had one that would spin the starter but not pull in. I changed the sol, same issue. Turned out to be a loose cable connection from the solenoid right on the starter. Odd but tightening that connection cured it.

[Racepres]

Yes I originally shortened the little solenoid plunger but that did not work because it reduced the pressure on the starter contacts. So I made a thicker spacer to give the same effect and put a double gasket on the solenoid and replaced the solenoid plunger pin i shortened. I think I could add another .060".

It looks like it will have to come back apart for other reasons so I will have the chance to back cut the ring gear and add to the spacer.

I have had a Problem when I did Not use the tin seal plate before...[just a gasket] but, I never went to such extremes..
Luckily mine have mostly Worked...and my Kicker is Reliable as a Pet Rock!!!

[Burnout]

Well the final verdict is outer and or inner cover has the starter shaft low. This makes the drive gear engagement hit or miss.

When I installed the outer cover I had to pry the cover upwards and hold while tightening the cover screws to get as much clearence as I could. (Alignment pin removed for more movement)

[farmall]

Can the drive housing be what's holding the shaft low since that's part of what locates the starter shaft inboard end?  If the pinion is still tight without an installed outer primary that points to the drive housing or inner primary.

If you can de-pin the drive housing and move the housing on the primary enough for the alignment to work, you might drill offset pin holes in the housing to place it where you want. If it has to go hard against the bolts you might skip the pins entirely. Drive housings are cheaper than primaries. You could use a Sharpie as layout dye in the drive housing then using a hooked scriber or whatever is handy you could mark the relationship you need.

If there isn't enough slack to be had by moving one set of roll pin holes you might offset the holes in both primary and drive housing since their additive offsets would total more. Moving those small holes is free and won't damage anything. After moving pins, check to see if bolt holes need slight "ovalling" with a Dremel.