Author Topic: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary  (Read 97288 times)

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Offline Dmerch

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #1350 on: March 14, 2019, 04:44:43 AM »
So venting does help some but the MoCo's seal/slinger isn't having any effect?
Given the volume moved over a short time, it does sound like a pumping action of some kind. Perhaps an augering effect? Is the mainshaft clutch rod bore very rough machined?
Apologies if I'm just dragging up previously discussed theories, I'm late to this party...

Offline oldbag

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #1351 on: March 14, 2019, 06:54:10 AM »
Maddo and others,
So whats the DIY solution for the folks that dont have access to Milling equipment or decent machine shop to take it to?
Is there a solution like the picture with channels heading from the diaphragm that could be made by hand or with a die grinder?
I used a die grinder...
2019 FLHXS
there is nothing like a good tune...

Offline PoorUB

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #1352 on: March 14, 2019, 09:26:12 AM »
Maddo and others,
So whats the DIY solution for the folks that dont have access to Milling equipment or decent machine shop to take it to?
Is there a solution like the picture with channels heading from the diaphragm that could be made by hand or with a die grinder?


Cheap die grinder and a aluminum burr. Stuff rags in all the holes and have at it.
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Offline Maddo Snr

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #1353 on: March 14, 2019, 04:42:57 PM »
The more I look at this issue the more I think that milling out the cover will solve the problem.

The old-style open hydraulic cover and a AIM slave is the solution I reckon.

I'll sit down this weekend and write some code to just pop it in the VMC and it'll be done in 10 minutes.

The MoCo seem intent on further sealing the vent end of the cross-shaft and it isn't working. The old open ended cover had no issues so it's worth revisiting that design IMO.
2018 FLHX 107
Rinehart 45s, SE cleaner, TTS MasterTune. 92/108

Offline Dmerch

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #1354 on: March 14, 2019, 05:27:56 PM »
I believe you're right. Keeping the oil away from the mainshaft end should be the solution. I've not been watching this situation all that closely until now, but from what I've seen, the biggest change they made is in that area.

Offline HOGMIKE

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #1355 on: March 14, 2019, 06:52:47 PM »
My 17 this is leaking oil into the primary

This was the start of this thread. And this is what was happening with my 17 also.
Over 50 pages of guessing, lots of poke a hole here and there, cut a slot, buy a aftermarket S/C, on and on.
I may have missed it but IF the primary case is going into a vacuum whatís causing the vacuum?
If the clutch pushrod assembly is ďpushing the oil along the mainshaft, how is it transferring 20+ oz of oil in 100 mostly freeway miles with very little clutch usage?
Things that I still donít understand. Iím going to be asking a bunch of questions to the factory rep next week and see if heís allowed to give out answers.

Iím guessing MOCO has a muzzle on him.

We shall see.
 :missed:
HOGMIKE

Offline kd

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #1356 on: March 14, 2019, 07:56:06 PM »
I suspect how you ask the questions will be important.  If he doesn't feel challenged he may open up a bit.  Admitting a little knowledge (enough to carry on a decent conversation) but not too much may encourage him to explain what he has found happens and works. Happy hunting.   :wink:
KD

Offline Maddo Snr

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #1357 on: March 14, 2019, 08:39:42 PM »
With respect Mike I believe you've underestimated the depth of engineering knowledge on HTT. Most of the questions you've asked have already been tested and examined by competent folks and peer reviewed by intelligent, experienced, sceptical, mechanical minds.

After 35 years as a Lecturer in Engineering and a Consultant, I can assure you this exactly what happens in engineering departments worldwide...

Except that instead of Millennial Graduates, HTT has folks who've ridden and wrenched HD for near 40 years. A ragtag group of amateur tinkerers they certainly are not. I'll leave this thread at this point with my respect for the fine minds on HTT intact.

You're now going to seek answers from a group of fellows that have had THREE different versions of oil control around the mainshaft support bearing and THREE different slave cylinder diaphragms, creating a total of NINE possible combinations of MoCo parts in that area. A group who have been working on this fault for darn near TWO YEARS without definitive success and who keep their failures and lack of ability top secret.

Good luck with that.

« Last Edit: March 14, 2019, 08:45:54 PM by Maddo Snr »
2018 FLHX 107
Rinehart 45s, SE cleaner, TTS MasterTune. 92/108

Offline oldbag

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #1358 on: March 15, 2019, 06:06:45 AM »
Maddo Snr...was the pre M8 side cover open completely?
2019 FLHXS
there is nothing like a good tune...

Offline HOGMIKE

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #1359 on: March 15, 2019, 06:15:37 AM »
Sorry if I offended any one of the members here on htt. I do understand where most of the engineering peoples mindset is at.
I come from a different work background and facilitated solutions to problems as quickly as possible to retain customers.
One of the most frustrating areas to deal with was having to say ďour group is working on itĒ. Does not sit well with some customers.
Yes, there was a time element involved in my job, and some PR with the client, most frustrating for me when I had to ďwaitĒ.

I am aware of all the talent here on HTT and want to thank everyone for inquisitive minds and detail oriented explanations of what they found and the process of various fixes.

Too bad the factory people canít move a little faster!

Again, sorry if I offended anyone.

Mike
HOGMIKE

Offline kd

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #1360 on: March 15, 2019, 07:01:50 AM »
Not offended here Mike.   :hug:   I look forward to hearing the response (if any) you get from the MOCO rep.  If for no other reason it will have entertainment value, but hopefully may elude to something in the works. We may find out whose idea they are stealing this time.   :crook:   Like I said before, getting into a frank and honest discussion will be tough. 
KD

Offline To The Max

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #1361 on: March 15, 2019, 05:09:27 PM »
With respect Mike I believe you've underestimated the depth of engineering knowledge on HTT. Most of the questions you've asked have already been tested and examined by competent folks and peer reviewed by intelligent, experienced, sceptical, mechanical minds.

After 35 years as a Lecturer in Engineering and a Consultant, I can assure you this exactly what happens in engineering departments worldwide...

Except that instead of Millennial Graduates, HTT has folks who've ridden and wrenched HD for near 40 years. A ragtag group of amateur tinkerers they certainly are not. I'll leave this thread at this point with my respect for the fine minds on HTT intact.

You're now going to seek answers from a group of fellows that have had THREE different versions of oil control around the mainshaft support bearing and THREE different slave cylinder diaphragms, creating a total of NINE possible combinations of MoCo parts in that area. A group who have been working on this fault for darn near TWO YEARS without definitive success and who keep their failures and lack of ability top secret.

Good luck with that.
I think your on the money with this and I believe the MOCO know what the cause is as well but I can't see them removing and replacing side covers it's just to much money. they would be looking at applying the cheapest band aid they could find. hence the primary breather , the spigot bush and the slave cylinder bush. if this was a brake problem they would recall so fast your head would spin. Max

Offline Hilly13

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #1362 on: March 15, 2019, 05:51:15 PM »
The side cover mod makes sense to me as well Max, if my bike ever transfers that will be what I do, apparently even though it's a twin cam it could happen, I have checked a few times, nothing yet.
Just because its said don't make it so

Offline Bigs

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #1363 on: March 15, 2019, 07:31:07 PM »
Well after reading all these posts I decided to vent the primary, bought the oversize clutch rod and put it in and replaced the clutch slave with the AIM slave for a better clutch feel. I guess I'll find out if I get transfer in a few months. If I do get some transfer I'll take out the clutch rod and build up the milled part with brass so it will fill the trans shaft and maybe grind some spiral on it to try to keep oil from creeping down the shaft. I put Harley Formula+ in the primary and 75W-140 in the transmission so I'll see how that works out. The AIM slave is great! I now have a controllable friction zone and a light clutch. Getting in first and shifting is no different than before.
   Bigs

Thanks to all you guys for all the information

Offline HOGMIKE

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #1364 on: March 19, 2019, 03:57:36 PM »
The factory fix is still the vented inner primary BUT nearly invisible unless you know where to look. Those wishing to keep their warranty intact should consider letting the dealer/factory rep install their vent hose.

The latest hose requires no other fittings. Itís just a little curly injection molded hose that plugs into a hole drilled in the inner primary to relieve pressure from the primary (either negative or positive) symptoms known, cause undetermined.

They also recommend formula + in the primary and trans for now.

Why the primary still fills up and trans empties is still a mystery to we the consumers.

I have high hopes this at least cures my oil transfer issue until MOCO determines the final cause and fix.

Iíll put some miles on mine this weekend and more on a trip to Phoenix in another week. Will be keeping a close watch on trans oil levels.

 :nix:



« Last Edit: March 19, 2019, 04:01:54 PM by HOGMIKE »
HOGMIKE

Offline oldbag

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #1365 on: March 19, 2019, 04:20:38 PM »
can you give us a picture? did a rep come from harley to do it...or was it a dealer tech?


The factory fix is still the vented inner primary BUT nearly invisible unless you know where to look. Those wishing to keep their warranty intact should consider letting the dealer/factory rep install their vent hose.

The latest hose requires no other fittings. Itís just a little curly injection molded hose that plugs into a hole drilled in the inner primary to relieve pressure from the primary (either negative or positive) symptoms known, cause undetermined.

They also recommend formula + in the primary and trans for now.

Why the primary still fills up and trans empties is still a mystery to we the consumers.

I have high hopes this at least cures my oil transfer issue until MOCO determines the final cause and fix.

Iíll put some miles on mine this weekend and more on a trip to Phoenix in another week. Will be keeping a close watch on trans oil levels.

 :nix:
« Last Edit: March 19, 2019, 06:54:14 PM by oldbag »
2019 FLHXS
there is nothing like a good tune...

Offline PoorUB

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #1366 on: March 19, 2019, 04:47:40 PM »
I always thought that venting the primary through the main shaft into the transmission was a strange way. Why not seal the main shaft to the pushrod and vent the primary.
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Offline oldbag

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #1367 on: March 19, 2019, 05:32:01 PM »
I agree completely and I will tell why...The first thing I did when I brought my bike home was drain the junk oil out they put in the transmission. A good synthetic makes it shift better and find neutral easier. So...I put in Redline Trans oil...riding I could smell the trans oil venting. The trans and primary must be a lot venting out together. I had a oil transfer problem. After I vented the primary...I don't smell the trans oil anymore. It seemed like a lot of venting was going on with both before I vented the primary.



I always thought that venting the primary through the main shaft into the transmission was a strange way. Why not seal the main shaft to the pushrod and vent the primary.
2019 FLHXS
there is nothing like a good tune...

Offline HOGMIKE

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #1368 on: March 21, 2019, 04:51:14 AM »
I always thought that venting the primary through the main shaft into the transmission was a strange way. Why not seal the main shaft to the pushrod and vent the primary.

Would seem logical to me also but for now weíll see if the cheap fix works.
 :nix:
HOGMIKE

Offline FSG

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #1369 on: March 21, 2019, 04:35:22 PM »
The secondary clutch actuator assembly for 2016 (37200023) was changed for 2017 to two P/N's...first it was 37200131 then superseded by 37200131A.

.............

since superseded by 37200131B

and now superseded by 37200131C

Offline Hilly13

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #1370 on: March 21, 2019, 04:51:02 PM »
The secondary clutch actuator assembly for 2016 (37200023) was changed for 2017 to two P/N's...first it was 37200131 then superseded by 37200131A.

.............

since superseded by 37200131B

and now superseded by 37200131C

I think the 2016 has a different line and master cylinder as well, don't think you can just go to the newest slave cylinder without changing a few other bits because of bore ratios. I could be wrong though.
Just because its said don't make it so

Offline HOGMIKE

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #1371 on: March 23, 2019, 06:50:52 PM »
Watch the MOCO do the easy fix.
Isolate the primary from the trans, probably just a cheap oil seal on the clutch push rod and the latest primary vent.

Not all the M8s transfered oil as fast and as much as mine Iím told.
The fix seems to be working on mine, got a little over 300 miles since the fix and still have oil on the dipstick. First time for that, donít know about the others at this point, no feedback.

 :chop:
 :missed:

HOGMIKE

Offline oldbag

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #1372 on: March 24, 2019, 04:05:21 PM »
do you have a pic of the vent tube on the bike to see the location?
2019 FLHXS
there is nothing like a good tune...

Offline HOGMIKE

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #1373 on: March 24, 2019, 06:54:44 PM »
Very hard to see with the heat shield in place
HOGMIKE

Offline hd06

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #1374 on: March 25, 2019, 02:52:24 AM »
  Great job.