VTune Lambda of .981 ?

[omega1]

2012 103" Limited with Se aircleaner, Fatshotz, Jackpot header. Cal DTQ044 with cam IVO set at 5 as per results of the cam estimator data run.

I have done 3 vTuning runs and the VE's in the areas below 2000rpm keep on changing by substantial amounts. For example, rear VE at idle moved from 72 to 48 over two back to back runs.

This has me wondering whether the .981 lambda is perhaps too rich causing the O2 sensors to somehow cool down and produce these inconsistent results.

My previous experience with vtuning was with a 2009 96" ultra with the same aircleaner and mufflers (I returned the bike to stock before trade in) and de-catted header. I had similar inconsistent results when vtuning this bike with the CLB set at 781 but when vtuning it with the CLB set at 645 my results were incredibly consistent from one run to the next.

According to the table in mastertune CLB 780 = 14.43 afr = .983 lambda and CLB 645 = 14.64 afr = .997 lambda.

I am tempted to try vtuning using .997 lambda but before I possibly damage something I would like to find out whether anyone has had similar results and whether using a lambda setting other than .981 for vtuning has been tried.

I am also not sure if my comparison of lambda/afr/CLB is valid from MT7 to MT8 calibrations

TIA

[Jeffd]

I have essentially the same set up 2011 RGU, se air cleaner, and supertrapp supermeg and I set mine at .981 and was able to white and light pink in those areas.  My was the DTA044 starting cal tho.  My idle ve's were in the 40's-50's.

[Steve Cole]

I have used .981 Lambda without issue many many times. I would say to take a look at the O2 location and see how much of the sensor is in the pipes. Your 2012 bike has much smaller sensors than your old bike and they must be correct for them to work properly. That fact that they are moving around is a pretty good indication they are not working properly. Also make sure you got the correct sensor in the correct pipe as that mistake has been made by many. The O2 with the black connector has to be in the rear cylinder head pipe.

[JohnC]

Shouldn't the DTA calibration have been a better starting point rather than the DTQ calibration?  Would that have attributed to the problems being encountered here?  My understanding is that the jackpot header is one of two that are excellent replacement headers for the newer bikes and if there was a problem with the depth of the installed 02 sensors, we would have heard about it.  Just trying to understand the process better.

DTA044-03   2011 â€" 2012 Drive-by-Wire Touring Bikes
Configuration: 1690 A/C and factory 2:1:2 Exhaust
Components:
  •  Air Cleaner and Breather Kit

DTQ044-03   2011 â€" 2012 'All Market' Drive-by-Wire Touring Bikes
Note:  This cal allows control of the active exhaust option in HDI vehicles
Configuration: 1690 A/C & Race Exhaust
Components:
  •  Air Cleaner and Breather Kit
  •  3 7/8" Big Bore Cylinders
  •  3 7/8" Big Bore Flat Top Pistons
  • Race Exhaust

[Jeffd]

Shouldn't the DTA calibration have been a better starting point rather than the DTQ calibration?  Would that have attributed to the problems being encountered here?  My understanding is that the jackpot header is one of two that are excellent replacement headers for the newer bikes and if there was a problem with the depth of the installed 02 sensors, we would have heard about it.  Just trying to understand the process better.

DTA044-03   2011 â€" 2012 Drive-by-Wire Touring Bikes
Configuration: 1690 A/C and factory 2:1:2 Exhaust
Components:
  •  Air Cleaner and Breather Kit

DTQ044-03   2011 â€" 2012 'All Market' Drive-by-Wire Touring Bikes
Note:  This cal allows control of the active exhaust option in HDI vehicles
Configuration: 1690 A/C & Race Exhaust
Components:
  •  Air Cleaner and Breather Kit
  •  3 7/8" Big Bore Cylinders
  •  3 7/8" Big Bore Flat Top Pistons
  • Race Exhaust

I was told by Steve last year to try both and use which ever one feels better and if they feel the same flip a coin.  I could tell no difference between them..

[Steve Cole]

We have had a few people that have had low speed issues with jackpot pipes. Not having them here in our hands makes it tough to see what they have done but the issues were resolved by proper O2 placement. In one case they removed the sensor bung and reworked it and another was able to cut the bungs down. Not sure if it was/is manufacturing differences or if there was a change made at some point.

As for calibration selection when you have something that fits closely to a few various base calibrations it is easy enough to test both and work with the one that your bike runs the best with to start. With enough time and testing you can start with a lot of various base calibrations and still end up with a good tune from them all.

[omega1]

Thanks for your input;

Jeffd - did you also use IVO 5 like I did?

JohnC - I have an HDI bike, used DTQ004 to disable the active exhaust.

Steve - Checked for correct sensor in correct pipe, all OK. Will now dismount header and accurately measure bung placement and depth.


What is disappointing is that the bike ran A LOT better at all rpm with the standard header, air cleaner and fatshotz with the completely standard unaltered DTQ004 cal (which has IVO set at 4)

Reading the tuning guide again it makes reference that I can use an IVO setting one number less than what the cam tune data calculates. I will try setting 4 and see what happens 

[JohnC]

Omega,

Be sure to post back with your progress / results.  I also have a fuelmoto jackpot header installed along with some V&H slashcut slip-ons.  I already have a S/E intake and TTS on-hand though not yet installed.  I'm still running the stock air cleaner and am just waiting for the weather to warm up a bit before I begin the process of v-tuning the bike. 

[Jeffd]

yes mine is set on 5.  Mine was distinctive at 5 on the cam alyzer and it idled smooth so I never messed with it again. you should be able to measure the bung depth without pulling the headers.  Just take small piece of wire bent in the shape of an L.

[glens]

you should be able to measure the bung depth without pulling the headers.  Just take small piece of wire bent in the shape of an L.

Can you remove your sensors with the pipe still in place?

I have an HDI bike, used DTQ004 to disable the active exhaust.

I looked over the two calibrations mentioned in this thread in two windows.  Overlaying and alt-tab between them on every table indicated the same values throughout.  Since the one offers active exhaust (and intake?) options when uploading the ECM, if they get disabled once, won't they remain disabled no matter which non-"active" calibration subsequently gets installed, that is, until such time as they get re-enabled by choice with a calibration that supports it?

[Jeffd]

I did on mine not sure about his.

[lonewolf]

I looked over the two calibrations mentioned in this thread in two windows.  Overlaying and alt-tab between them on every table indicated the same values throughout. 

I just copy and paste all the tables and then use the compare edits to baseline button.

[glens]

I looked over the two calibrations mentioned in this thread in two windows.  Overlaying and alt-tab between them on every table indicated the same values throughout. 

I just copy and paste all the tables and then use the compare edits to baseline button.

I do that on occasion as well.  Quitting without saving anything is always "no harm, no foul".

[omega1]

I removed the sensor to the rear pipe with the header in place and took some measurements:

Bung on stock header is 7mm deep (the threaded portion)
Bung on jackpot is 9mm deep

The sensor is therefore 2mm deeper into the exhaust stream on the stock header.

I confirmed this by inspecting the sensor itself. It clearly showed that the area where the tiny slots in the sensor are cut were very light grey caused by the passing exhaust gas while the bottom 2 mm of the sensor were almost black, indicating that it is out of the exhaust stream.

IIRC the important part of the sensor is that part which has the slits in it and as long as these tiny slits are in the exhaust stream all should be OK. Perhaps someone could comment whether a 2mm depth difference would make any difference?

Glens - I had also read somewhere that once you disable the active exhaust with an "all market" calibration that one could then subsequently use a "domestic" calibration and the active ehaust would remain disabled. Perhaps Steve could confirm this     

[Steve Cole]

Yes, once you disable the active intake and exhaust you can switch over to a domestic calibration without issue. The length issue could well cause your problem. The specification for the sensor is 6mm bung height so even the HD one is a little tall but because of the restrictive mufflers and cat in place stock it works for them. Now that you've removed the cat and put high flow mufflers in place and you have an issue.

[JohnC]

I sure hope we are able to get to the bottom of this, and without any vendor bias.  From what I've read here and on other forums, a lot of design and testing went into both the FullSac and Jackpot headers.  A lot of of folks have purchased and installed headers from both companies and most, if not all, are satisfied with their purchase as the accolades for both headers is apparent all over the web.  I honestly believe that if there was a design problem with the FuelMoto header, it would be common knowledge here and elsewhere.

Omega - Is it possible that too much anti-sieze on the O2 sensors is causing a problem with them?

[omega1]

I did not use any antiseize.

I tend to agree with your views on the header  - if there was a major problem with the header we would have read about it by now.

I will be trying a few other things in the coming week and see how it turns out

[FLTRI]

Our experiences:
Exhaust systems certainly change engine flow characteristics...so does cam timing.

For example, if you use a given exhaust system with stock cams you have a really good chance the sensors will get usable signaling.

However, if you change to cams with overlap (99.99% of all performance cams) using the same exhaust, the O2 sensors may no longer get consistent, reliable signalling and drive the system away from best AFR into lean or rich condition...especially at lower load/rpms.

In a nutshell, IMO, most of the exhaust mfgs first put out systems that had bungs that were either in the wrong location or too long...I believe the purposely made sure the sensor was NOT in the exhaust stream to lower exhaust restriction the sensor was perceived to cause.

It wasn't until TTS contacted most all the major mfgs to let them know their product was not designed for proper O2 signalling.

Some of the mfgs took the advice to heart and redesigned their bungs.
That said, there are still a bunch of systems that have bungs that do not afford the sensor to be deep enough into the exhaust stream.

One very large mfg simply stated they were selling their product as fast as they can make them and see no reason to change.

So, in a nutshell, if you want your bike to run to its potential, be sure to research your exhaust system to be sure it will work properly with your application...OR...be prepared to either eliminate the sensors and run the bike "oldschool" - open loop running only, or fix the bungs so the system to work properly...which usually means to cut them down so the sensors are actually in the exhaust stream.

One system may work very well with a given build but not with another build due to the aforementioned issues.

Hopefully the mfgs will do or have done testing with their systems, in worse case scenarios (ie:high overlap cam profiles) to assure proper signalling.
Until then, we are on our own and owe a lot to TTS for identifying and offering resolve to the issues created by the mfgs not paying attention to proper closed loop system operation.

Just my $.02 from a guy who deals with this issue daily,
Bob

[Steve Cole]

I did not use any antiseize.

I tend to agree with your views on the header  - if there was a major problem with the header we would have read about it by now.

I will be trying a few other things in the coming week and see how it turns out

Let's look at this from a little different light. The sensor itself for the 2010 and later touring bike is about 9mm long to start with and the threaded area below the sensor is about 6mm. So when you make the bung too long by 2mm you pull the sensor out of the exhaust by ~34% of the sensor length. Now let's look at the earlier sensor, It's about 17mm long and the threaded area is about 8mm, big difference in how much can stick into the pipe!

While 2mm sounds like a small amount when you look at the % of change it's rather large. That and the fact that the sensor was originally designed for a smaller diameter pipe to start with, make it a place to look at. This may not be your issue but having had to work through it before with the same pipe, it's where I would start.

HD has even change how they mount them in the 2012 model year to get them further into the pipe and there reason why was to help low speed driveability.

[omega1]

As the mastertune manual suggests, the user can use the IVO determined through the camtunedata routine or one less at your discretion.

On that basis and on advice from a member of this board, I changed IVO to 4 and re-ran vtune.

It was much easier to access the 20 and 30 MAP areas and on average the VE's below 2500rpm were about 10 points higher.
Second vtune VE values were identical to the first run - rock steady. Overall results were excellent.

Clearly my engine at my altitude using my fuel with my combination of parts prefers IVO 4 and, as Steve and others have mentioned before, it pays to try different settings to see what your motor responds best to.

As for the header, although the unit that I bought (perhaps there are manufacturing variances) mounts the sensors slightly further out than on the stock header, it would appear that it still works fine. Whether it would work better with sensors deeper in the exhaust stream is a question I cannot answer at this stage. Next time I dismount it I will grind down the bungs a bit and see what happens, but at this stage the bike is running fine.

Thanks for all your comments.