Adding a cam to a 2010 96" with headwork vs bolt in cam in a 2013 103

[Adam76]

Hey guys,
Looking at two different purchase options both Fatboys, with the intern tion of fitting some healthy cams... probably Andrews 54h  or fueling reaper 574s or similar.

1. 96" 2010 cheaper to buy
2. 103" 2013 more expensive to buy

Would I be better in the end putting money into headwork and cams on a 96" motor........
Or spending the money getting the bike with the 103 factory motor and doing just bolt in cams?

If 96" +  headwork is your choice, what work needs to be done without going to crazy?

Thanks very much for any advice.

[kd]

A bored 96" to 103 is a set of pistons / rings and bore job more than the base price.  Will that still be cheaper than the 103 cost?  Get the heads cleaned up while they are off and cams to support your riding style.  You' Have a fresh engine and get to check the crank and cam chest.

[sfmichael]

what the price difference?

I'd also consider miles, year, and condition

It's very easy to make a 96'' in to a 103" as already stated

[Adam76]

A bored 96" to 103 is a set of pistons / rings and bore job more than the base price.  Will that still be cheaper than the 103 cost?  Get the heads cleaned up while they are off and cams to support your riding style.  You' Have a fresh engine and get to check the crank and cam chest.

Thanks,  i think you're saying bore the 96 to 103  and do headwork then yes that would definitely be the compete package, fresh engine etc....  but that's going to push my budget for sure. 

[Adam76]

what the price difference?

I'd also consider miles, year, and condition

It's very easy to make a 96'' in to a 103" as already stated

Yes, condition is about the same,  millage is the same,  just  3 - 4 years older and has the 96 motor.

If you're suggesting boring 96 - 103  are you including/suggesting headwork as well? 
I guess I could go 96 - 103 with some minor headwork -  just not sure the budget allows. Then I  have a much stronger engine than a stock late model 103 with bolt in cams?

[sfmichael]

I'm a huge proponent of headwork but if the is budget is tight, I'd spend that money elsewhere

both of the cams you listed will be lazy in an otherwise stock engine

get the bigger engine and put some Andrews 48's in there

[sfmichael]

not much stronger - just equal to

more cubes = more power

easy enough to bore the 96 cylinders and buy some inexpensive 103 pistons

but less work is buying the 103 bike and installing the cams of your choice

how much more $$$ is the 103 bike?

[Adam76]

I'm a huge proponent of headwork but if the is budget is tight, I'd spend that money elsewhere

both of the cams you listed will be lazy in an otherwise stock engine

get the bigger engine and put some Andrews 48's in there

I agree with the laziness of the cams in a stock motor.

The whole point of the exercise was to go with the cam I've chosen eg Andrews 54  /  s+s 585  and make the changes need to make the cam work.

What I think you're saying is that I'm going to need to bore to 103, plus headwork to get the cam happy,  right?

[Adam76]

not much stronger - just equal to

more cubes = more power

easy enough to bore the 96 cylinders and buy some inexpensive 103 pistons

but less work is buying the 103 bike and installing the cams of your choice

how much more $$$ is the 103 bike?

In Aussie dollars it doesn't relate,  so there's a 2 - 3K price difference,  but it would possibly cost me 2K to bore it out and get the heads done. 
Hope that makes sense.

I think your last post mentioned I might be better off must getting the 103 and doing bolt in cams with a good tune and call it a day....

Thanks again for all the advice.

[sfmichael]

I have a 103 with Andrews 54's and it runs very well. I advanced my cams 4 degrees and the bike is very responsive

the tune is crucial on any motor combination - even a stock bike benefits greatly from a good tune

[1FSTRK]

This one is still running with no regrets.
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=56832.msg601271#msg601271

On the other hand this is a nice stage two.
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=87108.msg988534#msg988534

[rigidthumper]

There's other things of value with the factory 103 besides the bigger bore, like  Automatic Compression Releases, better compensater, better clutch spring, and resale value. I'd do the 13 with new inner cam bearings, and cam would depend on where you spend 90% of your riding time. If you're an idle to 4500 like most, then a CR570 or TTS100 would be good. If you are a 2K-5500, then a 54 or S&S MR103, maybe even an HQ525.
Always include the price of a tune/tuner with the budget, so you receive full benefit from the build.

[bigfoot5x]

I have not seen it mentioned but the Andrews 57 cams are almost identical to the 54's. The difference is a slight change in the timing to work better with the stock compression. I had a 96" engine that was bored to 103" with Andrews 54's, but I did have higher compression with the new pistons. Then I traded that bike for a new 103" bike. I put the 57's into the stock 103. Both engines were tuned and if there is a difference is HP, it is not noticeable. So I would vote for the newer 103" bike and just change the cams.

[Hossamania]

I would go for the 103.

[Adam76]

This one is still running with no regrets.
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=56832.msg601271#msg601271

On the other hand this is a nice stage two.
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=87108.msg988534#msg988534

Thanks for posting those two great examples... can't go wrong with either of those options for sure.  👍👍

[Adam76]

This one is still running with no regrets.
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=56832.msg601271#msg601271

On the other hand this is a nice stage two.
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=87108.msg988534#msg988534

This is what ideally I'm looking for,  something that pulls hard and doesn't fall off at 4500. This combo looks great,  thanks for posting it. 

[1FSTRK]

There are many ways to get to your goals, it will really come down to what bikes are available to you to start with and then budget.

Do not over look Robin's post (reply #11), The later factory 103ci bikes have many upgrades already, the better comp sprocket, ACR's, ECM strategy, and heated O2 sensors just to name a few things. Those things all make a bigger difference once you start make power upgrades.

[PoorUB]

103" and cams here.

I played with the 96" a bit, and tossed in a 103" kit before I was happy.

[Ohio HD]

There's other things of value with the factory 103 besides the bigger bore, like  Automatic Compression Releases, better compensater, better clutch spring, and resale value. I'd do the 13 with new inner cam bearings, and cam would depend on where you spend 90% of your riding time. If you're an idle to 4500 like most, then a CR570 or TTS100 would be good. If you are a 2K-5500, then a 54 or S&S MR103, maybe even an HQ525.
Always include the price of a tune/tuner with the budget, so you receive full benefit from the build.

  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is the most solid advice IMHO

[Adam76]

There are many ways to get to your goals, it will really come down to what bikes are available to you to start with and then budget.

Do not over look Robin's post (reply #11), The later factory 103ci bikes have many upgrades already, the better comp sprocket, ACR's, ECM strategy, and heated O2 sensors just to name a few things. Those things all make a bigger difference once you start make power upgrades.

👍👍 good point. I'll sick to the 103. Thanks

[Adam76]

There's other things of value with the factory 103 besides the bigger bore, like  Automatic Compression Releases, better compensater, better clutch spring, and resale value. I'd do the 13 with new inner cam bearings, and cam would depend on where you spend 90% of your riding time. If you're an idle to 4500 like most, then a CR570 or TTS100 would be good. If you are a 2K-5500, then a 54 or S&S MR103, maybe even an HQ525.
Always include the price of a tune/tuner with the budget, so you receive full benefit from the build.

  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is the most solid advice IMHO

Yes agreed,  advice I have definitely taken on.
Thanks for everyone's input,  looks like I have a plan now to get started on.

[sportbikeco]

I did a 96 and punched it to 107, runs real nice with stock heads.

Doing it again i'd like to have ACR as its not easy starting with my cam selection in 200 ccp range but never left me stranded. 

But the cost difference between say a 2008 96" bike and 2013 103" bike can be very significant and the older 96 bikes can be found for extremely compelling prices these days.

[Tail Ridr]

This one is still running with no regrets.
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=56832.msg601271#msg601271

What would be expected of this build with a 2-1-2 header and a decent set of slip-ons that would compliment this build and at a 10.4:1CR, putting the ccp closer to 200, depending on elevation...

[1FSTRK]

This one is still running with no regrets.
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=56832.msg601271#msg601271

What would be expected of this build with a 2-1-2 header and a decent set of slip-ons that would compliment this build and at a 10.4:1CR, putting the ccp closer to 200, depending on elevation...

With exhaust and compression as you describe the low end tq would come up so it would climb right from the hit too 3500 rpm. It would also raise the above 5000 curve over 100hp.

One thing to note is taking the 96" engines to 103" with a ccp above 185 ci it is highly recommended to add ACR's to the build. Easy to do and not too much money if you don't wait and do it as an after though when replacing batteries, starter drives and ring gears.

[PoorUB]

If you want to add compression releases pick up a used set of 103" heads and sell your 96" heads.

[Adam76]

There are many ways to get to your goals, it will really come down to what bikes are available to you to start with and then budget.

Do not over look Robin's post (reply #11), The later factory 103ci bikes have many upgrades already, the better comp sprocket, ACR's, ECM strategy, and heated O2 sensors just to name a few things. Those things all make a bigger difference once you start make power upgrades.

Thanks 1FSTRK,
My plan now is to pick up the 2013 103"  do the well proven CR 570 bolt in cam -- but go in from the top so I can swap out for a thinner head gasket to bump comp a bit,  and also reuse the stock push rods saving a bit of $$... Can thus be done with the stock pushrods considering the. 030 HG and the 570 lift of the cams?
Appreciate your thoughts. Cheers

[1FSTRK]

There are many ways to get to your goals, it will really come down to what bikes are available to you to start with and then budget.

Do not over look Robin's post (reply #11), The later factory 103ci bikes have many upgrades already, the better comp sprocket, ACR's, ECM strategy, and heated O2 sensors just to name a few things. Those things all make a bigger difference once you start make power upgrades.

Thanks 1FSTRK,
My plan now is to pick up the 2013 103"  do the well proven CR 570 bolt in cam -- but go in from the top so I can swap out for a thinner head gasket to bump comp a bit,  and also reuse the stock push rods saving a bit of $$... Can thus be done with the stock pushrods considering the. 030 HG and the 570 lift of the cams?
Appreciate your thoughts. Cheers

Good plan, you need to add a tune to the plan, it is crucial to a successful outcome.

[kd]

I'm sure someone with experience with 570 installs will chime in with the TDC lift and fit.   I just wanted to add, the .030  head gasket is more effective at improving cylinder swirl to reduce detonation than raising compression (even though it does that too).   Using the stock pushrods with the .030 gasket instead of the .045 OEM will move the lifter plunger depth from the .100 mid range level to .115 which is also a preferred depth for many. It may help a bit with hot soak starting and in some cases tame a little of the sewing machine lifter sounds and cold start-up clatter. The .030 gasket is IMO an all around good choice.

Edited for calc error   

[Adam76]

There are many ways to get to your goals, it will really come down to what bikes are available to you to start with and then budget.

Do not over look Robin's post (reply #11), The later factory 103ci bikes have many upgrades already, the better comp sprocket, ACR's, ECM strategy, and heated O2 sensors just to name a few things. Those things all make a bigger difference once you start make power upgrades.

Thanks 1FSTRK,
My plan now is to pick up the 2013 103"  do the well proven CR 570 bolt in cam -- but go in from the top so I can swap out for a thinner head gasket to bump comp a bit,  and also reuse the stock push rods saving a bit of $$... Can thus be done with the stock pushrods considering the. 030 HG and the 570 lift of the cams?
Appreciate your thoughts. Cheers

Good plan, you need to add a tune to the plan, it is crucial to a successful outcome.

Thanks!  Yes I have a great tuner not far from me which was always part of the plan using a power vision tuner.  👍

[Adam76]

I'm sure someone with experience with 570 installs will chime in with the TDC lift and fit.   I just wanted to add, the .030  head gasket is more effective at improving cylinder swirl to reduce detonation than raising compression (even though it does that too).   Using the stock pushrods with the .030 gasket will move the lifter plunger depth from the .100 mid range level to .130 which is also a preferred depth for many. It may help a bit with hot soak starting and in some cases tame a little of the sewing machine lifter sounds and cold start-up clatter. The .030 gasket is IMO an all around good choice,

Thanks for the info.  If it ask checks out like you suggest,  then I'm ask set to go.  👍

[Hilly13]

Where are you Adam?

[1FSTRK]

I'm sure someone with experience with 570 installs will chime in with the TDC lift and fit.   I just wanted to add, the .030  head gasket is more effective at improving cylinder swirl to reduce detonation than raising compression (even though it does that too).   Using the stock pushrods with the .030 gasket will move the lifter plunger depth from the .100 mid range level to .130 which is also a preferred depth for many. It may help a bit with hot soak starting and in some cases tame a little of the sewing machine lifter sounds and cold start-up clatter. The .030 gasket is IMO an all around good choice,

Thanks for the info.  If it ask checks out like you suggest,  then I'm ask set to go.  👍

It is always good to confirm but this has been done many times so nothing new to look for.

[PoorUB]

The base circle on the CR570-2 is the same as stock. You can run the stock push rods will put the plunger .015" farther into the lifter. The lifter in a stock bike is running right in the middle of the .180" plunger travel so no problems. Actually the stock head gasket is .045" so if you run a .030" it is only .015" difference.

I went through this and did it the long and wrong way. I figured the stock rods would be the wrong length so I cut them out then decided to order stock style push rods instead of adjustables. After careful measurements I ordered a set of Smiths that turned out to be the same length as stock. I would have reused the OEM push rods if I had not cut them out!

[kd]

The base circle on the CR570-2 is the same as stock. You can run the stock push rods will put the plunger .015" farther into the lifter. The lifter in a stock bike is running right in the middle of the .180" plunger travel so no problems. Actually the stock head gasket is .045" so if you run a .030" it is only .015" difference.

I went through this and did it the long and wrong way. I figured the stock rods would be the wrong length so I cut them out then decided to order stock style push rods instead of adjustables. After careful measurements I ordered a set of Smiths that turned out to be the same length as stock. I would have reused the OEM push rods if I had not cut them out!

I' Glad I read this.  In my haste I blew the measurement for the pushrod depth.  The .030 gasket is only .015 thinner than the stock .045 gasket.     The above measurement is the correct depth. 

[Adam76]

Where are you Adam?

Perth WA.
I've tried pm you,  but not working I don't think.
Cheers

[Adam76]

The base circle on the CR570-2 is the same as stock. You can run the stock push rods will put the plunger .015" farther into the lifter....

Cool, thanks for the info. The cam I'm wanting to use is the CR570 (not the 570-2) but I assume the same calculations apply?
Thanks.  👍

[Hilly13]

Where are you Adam?

Perth WA.
I've tried pm you,  but not working I don't think.
Cheers

Dunno on the pm but copy on WA, so Deano would be your dyno bloke? If so from what I've been told he will do a good job mate.

[Durwood]

The CR-570-2 replaced the CR-570 in the line up a while back, the -2's make the same curve as the 570 but are quiet in terms of VT noise.

FWIW, the stock 103 head gaskets that I have removed and measured have been .052" thick.

Also, are you going to replace the 46mm throttle body currently on the Fatboy?

[kd]

The CR-570-2 replaced the CR-570 in the line up a while back, the -2's make the same curve as the 570 but are quiet in terms of VT noise.

FWIW, the stock 103 head gaskets that I have removed and measured have been .052" thick.

Also, are you going to replace the 46mm throttle body currently on the Fatboy?

Well there you go.  Another measurement from someone that has been doing lots of them.  When you take it apart measure what you take out and confirm your calculations so you know. ....  .022 difference will have more effect on compression but should still be a non issue with the pushrods. .

[Adam76]

The CR-570-2 replaced the CR-570 in the line up a while back, the -2's make the same curve as the 570 but are quiet in terms of VT noise.

FWIW, the stock 103 head gaskets that I have removed and measured have been .052" thick.

Also, are you going to replace the 46mm throttle body currently on the Fatboy?

Hey Durwood, thanks for the reply.
Is a shame they replaced the 570 with the 570-2..... I liked the curve of the 570 better because I didn't want a low end TQ cam and  it seemed slightly more biased toward to right, and seemed to yield more hp from the dyno charts I've seen from you.  But I guess the differences probably come  down to exhaust choice and proper tuning more than anything else? 

As far as the throttle body goes,  should I be replacing it with this combo?
Thanks again for your advice.

[Adam76]

Where are you Adam?

Perth WA.
I've tried pm you,  but not working I don't think.
Cheers

Dunno on the pm but copy on WA, so Deano would be your dyno bloke? If so from what I've been told he will do a good job mate.

Yah,  Deano is not doing the dyno himself anymore,  but yes Thundertech is where I'll be going for the tune.  Had a few bikes done there previously.  👍

[Durwood]

The CR-570-2 replaced the CR-570 in the line up a while back, the -2's make the same curve as the 570 but are quiet in terms of VT noise.

FWIW, the stock 103 head gaskets that I have removed and measured have been .052" thick.

Also, are you going to replace the 46mm throttle body currently on the Fatboy?

Hey Durwood, thanks for the reply.
Is a shame they replaced the 570 with the 570-2..... I liked the curve of the 570 better because I didn't want a low end TQ cam and  it seemed slightly more biased toward to right, and seemed to yield more hp from the dyno charts I've seen from you.  But I guess the differences probably come  down to exhaust choice and proper tuning more than anything else? 

As far as the throttle body goes,  should I be replacing it with this combo?
Thanks again for your advice.

The Softail has about a 5/5 disadvantage right off the bat with the counter balancer's, then factor in the smaller 46mm throttle body  and they take another hit.

Changing it is up to you, I am just pointing these things out so that you aren't surprised when you complete your upgrade and it doesn't produce the power that you see in the graphs of the touring bikes.

To answer your other question. Yes, exhaust and tune are also key to getting the desired results.

[Adam76]

The CR-570-2 replaced the CR-570 in the line up a while back, the -2's make the same curve as the 570 but are quiet in terms of VT noise.

FWIW, the stock 103 head gaskets that I have removed and measured have been .052" thick.

Also, are you going to replace the 46mm throttle body currently on the Fatboy?

Hey Durwood, thanks for the reply.
Is a shame they replaced the 570 with the 570-2..... I liked the curve of the 570 better because I didn't want a low end TQ cam and  it seemed slightly more biased toward to right, and seemed to yield more hp from the dyno charts I've seen from you.  But I guess the differences probably come  down to exhaust choice and proper tuning more than anything else? 

As far as the throttle body goes,  should I be replacing it with this combo?
Thanks again for your advice.

The Softail has about a 5/5 disadvantage right off the bat with the counter balancer's, then factor in the smaller 46mm throttle body  and they take another hit.

Changing it is up to you, I am just pointing these things out so that you aren't surprised when you complete your upgrade and it doesn't produce the power that you see in the graphs of the touring bikes.

To answer your other question. Yes, exhaust and tune are also key to getting the desired results.

Thanks again for the info and appreciate the differences between the softail and the late model touring bikes producing better results.....
Looks like I may need some decent headwork to get the most out of the cam only upgrade? 

Thanks for all the great info in this thread. Cheers.
ALL the best for the festive season guys.  Ride safe.