REPRINT FROM OLD HTT: Race Tech For Cartridge Forks (FXDXT)

[ClassicRider2002]

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS A REPRINT TOPIC FROM "OLD" HTT

I have saved many great topical discussions as "links" over the years and would hate to see these lost, so I am reprinting this TOPIC here, which may "perhaps" help some.

TOPIC:  Race Tech For Cartridge Forks (FXDXT)  07-27-05
   

From: DynaBagger  (Original Message) Sent: 7/27/2005 8:52 PM   Message 1 of 14 in Discussion
I posted the other day about upgrading the springs in my FXDXT but didn't get much response so I'll try again.

I'd like to hear some feedback from anyone that has used the Race Tech products for cartridge forks. The springs in my forks are shot and I am considering replacing them with Racetech springs. I spoke with a racetech rep this morning and he recommended adding the Gold Valve Kit ($159.99) along with the springs, which run $109.99. Will the Gold Valve kit be that much better than stock with a set of racetech springs to justify the cost?

Anyone know what discount dealer carries the Race Tech products?

Thanks,
DynaBagger

[ClassicRider2002]

From: EricLee Sent: 7/27/2005 9:00 PM   Message 2 of 14 in Discussion   
I have the exact setup on a FLSTFI and love it. The bike handles and corners much better. Make sure that you use the racetech front fork oil as well.


From: rigidthumper Sent: 7/27/2005 9:32 PM   Message 3 of 14 in Discussion
IMO, Absolutely! From what I've seen, and ridden, and installed, the RaceTech products are well worth the $.


From: Deathwishdan1 Sent: 7/28/2005 12:00 PM   Message 4 of 14 in Discussion
Been running the race tech front end suspension kit for 25k miles on my 2000 FLHRI with the 416 air progressive rear. Would reccomend running the progressive rear 440 series on rear with race tech front end kit.Will not believe the diffrence in handling, minimal front end dive under braking conditions. I can now go into a 40mph corner at 75+ and exit around 85+++. 43k on bike now.
One can purchase from www.cyborgcycles.com for around $209.38 n


From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 7/28/2005 2:26 PM   Message 5 of 14 in Discussion
DynaBagger

I'd like to hear some feedback from anyone that has used the racetech products for cartridge forks. The springs in my forks are shot and I am considering replacing them with Racetech springs. I spoke with a racetech rep this morning and he recommended adding the Gold Valve Kit ($159.99) along with the springs, which run $109.99. Will the Gold Valve kit be that much better than stock with a set of racetech springs to justify the cost?

Anyone know what discount dealer carries the racetech products?--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DynaBagger......

My feed back will be done mostly in regards to Deathwishdan1's comments.....I would very much advise to go with the Racetech springs AS WELL as the Gold Valve Emulator Kit.    I would also work with Belray Fork Oil 20 weight.  I have been using this product for over 8,000 miles thus far.  I rode my RKC for about 400 miles before making this modifcation...enough time to realize I needed some appropriate solutions to dive when stopping at lights, for cornering, for "road feedback" to my hands when at highway speed......

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deathwishdan1
Been running the race tech front end suspension kit for 25k miles on my 2000 FLHRI with the 416 air progressive rear. Would reccomend running the progressive rear 440 series on rear with race tech front end kit.Will not believe the diffrence in handling, minimal front end dive under braking conditions. I can now go into a 40mph corner at 75+ and exit around 85+++. 43k on bike now.

Deathwishdan1.....your comments are an exact verbage for mine as well....I have put the Racetech emulators and Racetech springs in as a kit with Belray 20w Fork Oil....on my 2002 RKC and I would 100% agree with your comments!!!!!!!!!  Seriously after one installs this setup they will ask themselves why they didn't do it to begin with......

Now in doing this....one needs a couple of special tools.....so read your service manual correctly as well as the instructions provided by Racetech.....I believe Jim's Tools makes the tool that will "press on" the seal that goes into the fork....I actually on this install helped my Indy Mechanic and to tell you the truth I am not sure how he would have done it without 4 hands....this is definitely a 2 person job!!!!!  And while it seems easy.....it's a bit complicated.....I have installed a Andrews 26g cam and replaced the chain tensioners....and to tell you the truth I found that particular job easier than doing this modification....It was my indy's first attempt at this....so believe me I would querri whomever was going to do the install as to whether they have done this install before....and if not....I would insist that they contact the R&D of Racetech....at the time I purchased my set up there was only one person who understood the  application of the emulators for HD, and thuse he was "labeled" the HD Sales Rep....he really seemed to know his product well...but sometimes talking with an R&D guy is even a bit better IMO....sometimes the Sales Rep person is out doing different things...but I was given his cell phone number and when it came time to install we had to chat with someone that new the product he was not available so we talked with the R&D person for about 10 minutes to understand the nuiances of the install and he really really assisted us quite well......and allowed the install to continue without interruption....which also speaks to trying to do this install during perhaps normal business hours so you don't have to have an interruption and by the way....another thing to consider when doing this job is WOULD it be a good idea to add CHROMED fork lowers....since you have to tear them all apart anyway....just a thought.....a great time to make that decision also.....

I was contimplating at the time of my install whether to put progressive springs with the racetech emulators and after doing some research made the decision to go with Racetech's springs.....thus installing a complete set up from them....it WAS indeed the right decision.....On a RKC the front end is much heavier.....than for a Dyna....so my point is if it works for a RKC it will most assurdly work for a dyna as well.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Another point is.....unless you are present or can be present for some input during the installation....it will become the "installers" interpretation as to how much preload to add to the springs which places the springs under tension....and to tell you the truth I believe YOUR input is the most important point...so I would try to be present for that....I mean if you don't get enough preload in there you could end up with what you had before....sloppy feel....and think about this with me....the reason it took 4 hands to get everything set up right for my install was because I was there providing input about how much "preload" I wanted which ultimately means the more preload you add the tougher it is to get that cap pushed down on to the fork tube....thus...4 hands....less preload the easier it is to do with just 2 hands.....I am not trying to say how much is enough or not enough for you all I am saying is that you might want to be present to at least offer an opinion and to lend two hands if need be.....

Also the emulators have to be "adjusted" in some manner of which my memory slips me THIS is where the assistance of someone who has installed them before will understand how to set up the emulators as well OR by having contact with the R&D at Racetech will prove itself invaluable.....If it's unclear about what I am trying to say.....just saying that you understand there is some sort of setting required for the emulator should be enough to at least put someone such as an experienced installer of this product on notice as to what you are asking about or of course the R&D will understand......<~~~these are the aspects that I am referring to that make this job a bit more complex....not trying to "scare" you but letting you know you are working with a product that is more shall we say "higher tech" and there is no sense paying for it if someone doesn't take the time to use the full range of the product correctly....I sure wouldn't let the "ego" of a indy mechanic intimidate the proper installation or allow him to sluff it off as no big deal.......it is a BIG DEAL!!!!!!!!   Bottom line to what I am saying....keep asking questions before you have it installed to KNOW what it is you are after don't take someone's word for your lack of knowledge......There really aren't too many applications we do to our bikes that require this level of fine tuning.....so just be aware....and hopefully I am not being overly dramatic....

I also agree with Deathwishdan1 as I am running Progressive 440's on the rear.....as one person told me once there are three aspects to a motorcycle:
1)  Power......thus the motor
2)  Braking
3)  Handling....   if you were to put Progressive 440's on and depending upon your weight you have a choice of heavy duty or standard duty and then install the Racetech Emulators and Springs you will have the best susspension that you can do in the year 2005......that's about all you can do with your handling....oh I might consider one more thing for a Dyna.....perhaps a fork brace....and of course there are tires as well......so there you have it......

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: ederdelyi Sent: 7/28/2005 2:56 PM   Message 6 of 14 in Discussion
All of you guys are missing the fact he has an FXDXT ... same susupension as the FXDX which is a fully adjustable cartridge fork to start with ... miles ahead of *anything* else in the HD line except for the now discontinued Sportster "S" model which also had the fully adjustable cartridge forks. The FXDXT is just a mite different than yer average "UltraBarge" to start with.

That said, DynaBagger needs to be sure that Race Tech understands he has an FXDXT and not a standard FXD or a '99 FXDX which did not have the adjustable cartridge forks. It will most likely require calculating a custom spring and if they have one pre-made that is close to the required spring rate that is most likely what they will suggest. As to the Gold Valve kit, it is NOT an emulator for his forks, it is a valving enhancement. He doesn't need a cartridge emulator, he already *has* cartridge forks. The Gold Valve kit is worth the money and will greatly improve the already good forks you poresently have.

Rather than going the Race Tech route on my FXDX, I had Lindemann Engineering do custom valving and springs for my FXDX, and installed a set of custom Works Performance Pro Racer rear shocks. My suspension is now almost the equal of the Ohlins shocks on my Duc 996, but at a lot less money.

You'll be happy with the RaceTech stuff, just make sure they understand exactly which bike you have, the FXDX and FXDXT are often thought of as just an FXD with a blacked out motor ... not true.


From: AustinFXDWG Sent: 7/28/2005 3:37 PM   Message 7 of 14 in Discussion
The Gold Valve emulators emulate a cartridge fork on compression only. In your bike, you already have real cartridges which function on both compression and rebound. You will gain nothing by going to the goldvalves, though their springs are good too and would help. On a bike with damper rod forks, it's a whole new ballgame and they make a world of difference. But, not on your bike which arleady has real cartridges. The cartridges are replaceable when they wear out too. BillS
   

From: DynaBagger Sent: 7/28/2005 3:40 PM   Message 8 of 14 in Discussion
Classic, Deathwish, Ed

Your input is appreciated and says much for the quality of the Race Tech suspensions. Ed hit it bang on, this bike is already a cartridge fork.

I was out today talking with a suspension expert working in a sport bike dealrship. He also swears by the Race Tech stuff but he charges $225 for the install of the valving and springs.

I usually do my own work up to a point but would not want to screw this up. I've rebuilt damping rod forks a few times but taking apart the cartridge, is something even the HD dealers or indy's here have never done. The race tech video that comes with the gold valve is supposed to show the installation and set up but if I get stuck then it's $225 extra to have the job done right. So, that being said, if they really are that much better then stock, maybe I can splurge.  But I would like to know what level of mechanical compitence and special tools one needs to do the job thereselves? Seems to me the spring compression tool may be one that is needed.  Thanks,
DynaBagger


From: ederdelyi Sent: 7/28/2005 3:48 PM   Message 9 of 14 in Discussion
AustinFXDWG,
You are correct about the Emulators, they are for damper rod forks. RaceTech also has Gold Valve kits for cartridge forks, which is what is being recommended to DynaBagger.

DynaBagger,
If you have access to a suspension expert who has done this work before ... use him. It's worth the money. However, if you truly want to do it yourself, I can understand that as well. The spring compression tool and a fork oil level tool are the most important ones to have, IMO. The video is good, but it doesn't include the experience of a good suspension tech who has done lots of 'em before. Guys like that usually have a few "tricks" of their own that you can't get from a video or install sheet!  Your choice, do what you feel comfortable with. 


From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 7/28/2005 4:41 PM   Message 10 of 14 in Discussion
thanks guys for the correction....but I am confused....lol....I don't know what an FXDX or an FXDXT is without looking it up...lol....since I don't have either of those bikes.....

I always appreciate Ed's input....    

Appologize if I led anyone down the wrong path.....

Regards,

"Classic"


From: ederdelyi Sent: 7/28/2005 5:06 PM   Message 11 of 14 in Discussion
Classic,
No problemo. And don't feel bad, *many* in the HD world have no clue as to what an FXDX or FXDXT is or what those bikes are about. You have an FXR2, I believe, so imagine a Dyna with the same type of riding style/mindset in mind and you've got the right idea for an FXDX. Add softbags and a fork mounted fairing/windhield and you have the FXDXT.

Your experiences with the RaceTech stuff for your bike are, I'm sure, accurate and reflect your satisfaction with their products for your application ... can't get a better recommendation than that. Quality suspension is quality suspension. For those who know the difference it matters.


From: AustinFXDWG Sent: 7/29/2005 6:24 AM   Message 12 of 14 in Discussion
Ed.....Thanks for the clarification and education. I did not know about the valves for cartridge forks. One thing you would gain adding the valves to the cartridges is the added adjustability. but the complexity of the teardown needed to make an adjustment is such that you would not want to do it often, it at all. Anyone have experience with their Rear shocks, the "Caddies" that also use the gold valves inside? BillS


From: po2gyn2 Sent: 7/29/2005 7:08 AM   Message 13 of 14 in Discussion
Ed what if anything can be done to the forks on my 04 R Glide. had problem with forks bottoming out dealer pulled left fork leg drained it reinstalled it with morethan specified oil now it's way to firm. is there a better way to fix this thanks PO2

From: ederdelyi Sent: 7/29/2005 7:19 AM   Message 14 of 14 in Discussion
Bill,
The beauty of using the Gold Valve setup with a set of adjustable cartridge forks such as those found on the FXDX/FXDXT is that you still have the external adjustment features of the original fork, but is now centered around the new valving rates of the Gold Valves. So, the compression and rebound adjustments are settable by the "clickers" just as before, but with enhanced valving characteristics. On an FXDX/FXDXT you can adjust rebound, compression, and pre-load just like you can on most modern sport bikes/high performance sport touring bikes.

The Caddies system is nice, but is does require dis-assembly of the shock to change settings. The stock FXDX/FXDXT rear shocks are adjustable for rebound, but are not re-buildable, so you can't do Gold Valves with those. I like externally adjustable shocks so I opted to go with Works Performance Pro Racer shocks which allow me to adjust rebound, compression, pre-load, and ride height.

For the "set it and forget it" crowd, a shock like the Caddies or one of the other non adjustable shocks is more likely the best choice. All nonadjustable shocks/forks will be a "best fit" compromise for spring rate and damper valving ... almost any good aftermarket shock will be an improvement over the OEM ... and that's not just HD, applies to almost any vehicle. Exceptions would be some newer HiPo cars and bikes that come with superb suspension right out of the box.

[ClassicRider2002]

Anything added beyond this point is new information.

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

Photos of an FXDX set of forks, the only issues with using these forks is that HD never made these with "Chromed Lowers".

[NOTE: Please remember that putting your curser next to the paper clip icon below the photo will allow you to enlarge the photo plus save it to your computer if you desire OR if you merely wish to see it enlarged simply put your curser on the photo and "LEFT" click and it will enlarge]

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[ClassicRider2002]

WEBSITE FOR RACE TECH:
simply place your curser over the "http address / link" below, then click, view and read:
http://www.racetech.com/


There is a difference between Gold Valve Cartridge Emulators and Gold Valve Fork Kits:  

Gold Valve Cartridge Emulators 
 
(for damping rod forks)
Damping rod forks are notorious for being both too harsh and too easy to bottom. This is the nature of damping rod fixed orifice forks. Until now, all you could do is change spring rate, oil viscosity and damping hole size. The best available was a serious compromise.

The Gold Valve Cartridge Emulator is another one of the outstanding inventions from Race Tech’s Paul Thede. Simply put; Emulators make damping rod forks perform like well-tuned cartridge forks. Emulators are tunable valves that sit on top of the damping rods and are held in place with the main springs. This makes them both simple to install and completely tunable for all conditions and rider preferences.

Track tests consistently produce lap times that are 1 or more seconds a lap faster while Cruisers and Gold Wing owners rave at the increased control and ride quality.


Gold Valve Fork Kits
Race Tech's original bolt-on fork valving system for cartridge forks.

Stock valving pistons have very restrictive ports. This makes it impossible to get the ultimate results with the stock pistons. Gold Valves triple the flow area putting valving control on the shim stack instead of the overly restricted stock piston. This results in outstanding tuneability, improved control, traction, plushness and bottoming resistance.

Includes complete instructions, Gold Valve Pistons, Valving Charts, and Valving Shims.

[Buddy WMC]

Tim and I discussed this issue several months ago. While in the process of rebuilding my 1993 FXLR, I decided to make some changes that Tim and some others questioned. Far as we knew at that time, I was the first to install the Racetech Gold Emulators in my new 39mm front end. During the process of the rebuild, the engine was modified, a Baker DD6 transmission was installed, the bike was repainted, the standard HD swingarm cleveblocks were replaced with a CCE spherical bearing kit and the entire front end was replaced. The only original parts not replaced were the frame, swingarm, headlight bucket, tachometer and wiring harness. It should be noted that the bike sat pitched up high in the front before the mods were done.

New parts were purchased, some of the new and old parts were chromed by Ronnie Brown and the powdercoating was done by Roger at Final Touch Powdercoating, both first class operations. The new HD triple trees and dust shields were plated by Ronnie. Roger powdercoated the guage dash panel, guage cups, bottom covers, swingarm and some other small parts. The 25 3/8" fork tubes were custom made by Forking by Frank (I've used them for over 30 years). New HD lower legs, all HD internal lower parts with the exception of the Racetech 39mm Gold Emulators, a Progressive 39mm lowering kit set at 1" and Belray 20wt fork oil.

The CCE spherical bearing kit was installed in the powdercoated swingarm and a set of cheap $65.00 eBay 11 3/4" Sportster chromed Hugger shocks replaced the 11 1/2" Progressive 412's that were previosly installed. We installed the cheap shocks for two reasons, the first for a little more clearance between the shocks and rear pulley/tire with a larger 140 rear tire and secondly, to see where the bike sat when on the ground. Now that we know, I'm inquiring into a set of quality made Works shocks to replace the cheapo's.

Perhaps it is the combination, but my FXLR is much more solid like it's running on rails. There is absolutely no sway in the rear end even at 100mph. The front end is rock solid at the same speed, but the dampening is much better than it was before. As a test we hit a stretch of rough road on purpose and those cheap overseas made shocks have got to go although they do work. IMO, the addition of the Racetech Gold Emulators, the front Progressive spring kit and the CCE spherical bearing kit was more than worthwhile. Best of all, the bike now sits level like it should.

It should be noted that I could not use Racetech's complete kit. The Racetech front spring rates seem to be calculated in a fairly narrow range by rider weight. Progressive's kits are not like this and what about your weight plus a passenger? Due to a medical condition that fluctuates my weight and having the Progressive kit on the shelf helped make up my mind.

I have posted before and after photos to show the visual differences. The real "new look", is the black with candy red flames. The shot taked at speed was at 85mph on a back country road. Hope you guys like her and this information will help someone.


[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[wyoung8]

I was about to purchase the RACE TECH Gold vaves for my 92 FXR Conv, I found another product called Ricor valves. I did some research and decised to go with Ricor.  My bike handles great (for me night and day difference) made the whole ride smoother and very stable in turns with imperfections in the road. just my 2 cents.

[Reddog74usa]

 

[moose]

anyone do the race tech on a fatboy. what should I look for to do it?  no one that I have found in my area knows how to set one up so I guess I'm on my own

any tips