Valve Seat Issues?

[harleytuner]

Follow up https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10154988443657181&id=100157792180

[bxbutch]

Well done THANK YOU Butch

[strobeen]

Very interesting. Could this valve seat problem be some of the cause of sumping ?

[rbabos]

Very interesting. Could this valve seat problem be some of the cause of sumping ?

No.
Ron

[Don D]

Interesting find
Easy fix with OS seat and properly putting a little more lead on the seat ring.

[rbabos]

Interesting find
Easy fix with OS seat and properly putting a little more lead on the seat ring.

What about the out of round bore , trashed from previous press. Don't you have to true the bores first? Otherwise press will be unequal around the seat.
Ron

[Don D]

In the seat and guide machine you just center and true over the hole and recut the hole enough oversize to clean and concentric to the guide axis. Then use an oversized seat ring to reestablish the proper press. I always sand the start of the seat ring to prevent any material being pulled in (the original problem ).

[WhipLash96]

  Maybe they can pressurize the primary with some of the blow-by so the trans lube will stay in the trans.

Makes me laugh when people state Harley quality is going down...they use to make some real junk.  Harley has always had an absurd amount of difficulty with design changes compared to Japanese bikes. The M8 will be fine once sorted.

Sure it will be sorted. In the mean time, I'll let others make donations to their bottom line while they take their sweet ass time solving issues and get it where it should have been in the first place. It was mentioned he EVO Sportsters had this issue at first. Does this company ever learn from their mistakes?
Ron

Absolutely love your question here Ron!

[rbabos]

In the seat and guide machine you just center and true over the hole and recut the hole enough oversize to clean and concentric to the guide axis. Then use an oversized seat ring to reestablish the proper press. I always sand the start of the seat ring to prevent any material being pulled in (the original problem ).

I know you will do it right as described above. Sadly, there will be some that just shove that seat into a damaged hole and call it done. I was only pointing attention to that square peg/round hole aspect.
Ron

[Thermodyne]

Seems to me, that the MoCo is trying to build modern heads with outdated practices.   

On the high end automotive side, seats for soft alloy aluminum heads are chilled with nitrogen and then dropped into place, to prevent damage to the head from interference pressing them. 

[1FSTRK]

Seems to me, that the MoCo is trying to build modern heads with outdated practices.   

On the high end automotive side, seats for soft alloy aluminum heads are chilled with nitrogen and then dropped into place, to prevent damage to the head from interference pressing them.

Same at HD for decades.

[jsachs1]

If you put a smooth radius on the seat lead in, proper interference fit, you should never have the problem.
John

[04 SE Deuce]

  Maybe they can pressurize the primary with some of the blow-by so the trans lube will stay in the trans.

Makes me laugh when people state Harley quality is going down...they use to make some real junk.  Harley has always had an absurd amount of difficulty with design changes compared to Japanese bikes. The M8 will be fine once sorted.

Sure it will be sorted. In the mean time, I'll let others make donations to their bottom line while they take their sweet ass time solving issues and get it where it should have been in the first place. It was mentioned he EVO Sportsters had this issue at first. Does this company ever learn from their mistakes?
Ron

Absolutely love your question here Ron!

Hey we're talk'n a company steeped in tradition here!   

[Moparnut72]

Seems to me, that the MoCo is trying to build modern heads with outdated practices.   

On the high end automotive side, seats for soft alloy aluminum heads are chilled with nitrogen and then dropped into place, to prevent damage to the head from interference pressing them.

That is how we put guides in '30's and 40's radial aircraft engines. Seats weren't replacable. Once the seats were worn out, ground too many times etc, the cylinders were discarded. When I ground seats I took off the least amount of material possible.
kk

[TorQuePimp]

If you put a smooth radius on the seat lead in, proper interference fit, you should never have the problem.
John

Or order them that way

Tucker,PPPC ,del west and others have a seat order form where you can write in particulars

   it helps alot

[Thermodyne]

OK, so here's a question.  Regardless of what error is taking place when the heads are built.   What are the ramifications to the end user?  That guy who will never pull the heads short of a failure?

Will the exhaust gas eventually erode the aluminum away from under the seat?

Will the seat run hot from improper cooling and cause any number of problems?  Early detonation all the way to burnt valves or dropped seats.

Or will those scooters just run a little more poorly, but give a lifetime of service?

[Don D]

Bent and dropped valve

[prodrag1320]

If you put a smooth radius on the seat lead in, proper interference fit, you should never have the problem.
John

100% agree'd

[1FSTRK]

OK, so here's a question.  Regardless of what error is taking place when the heads are built.   What are the ramifications to the end user?  That guy who will never pull the heads short of a failure?

Will the exhaust gas eventually erode the aluminum away from under the seat?

Will the seat run hot from improper cooling and cause any number of problems?  Early detonation all the way to burnt valves or dropped seats.

Or will those scooters just run a little more poorly, but give a lifetime of service?

If it will show up on a leakdown test it can cause some or all of what you listed.

[HD/Wrench]

Reminds me of the Floating guide in the early CVO 110 heads..  Some ran with the noise for many thousands of miles before they had a hard crunch failure. Just did a 07 that was " noisy"  No guide in the port on front ex head it had been moving up and down for a long time based on when the noise started..  The amount of oil it was pushing was the customer concern.. Dealer said that some CVO can be louder than others .. Guy rode the wheels off..   Head was junk at that point or at least would cost more to repair then to buy new .


New model new issues ..  HD will solve it as that is not something that can be a turn your head the other way .. But how many  are leaking ?? close to 450,000 heads in a year .. at what point is it a real issue to HD ?   

[harleytuner]

Reminds me of the Floating guide in the early CVO 110 heads..  Some ran with the noise for many thousands of miles before they had a hard crunch failure. Just did a 07 that was " noisy"  No guide in the port on front ex head it had been moving up and down for a long time based on when the noise started..  The amount of oil it was pushing was the customer concern.. Dealer said that some CVO can be louder than others .. Guy rode the wheels off..   Head was junk at that point or at least would cost more to repair then to buy new .


New model new issues ..  HD will solve it as that is not something that can be a turn your head the other way .. But how many  are leaking ?? close to 450,000 heads in a year .. at what point is it a real issue to HD ?

When it costs the share holders money.

[Nastytls]

New model new issues ..  HD will solve it as that is not something that can be a turn your head the other way ..

Don't they have an extensive history of doing just that?

How would anyone know this is happening without tearing the heads off. HD will just say that the leak down is within spec and there is no reason to pull the head. Even if you persuaded them to pull it under warranty, it looks like T-mann went to significant lengths to determine where the leak actually was, what tech at an HD dealer is ever going to do that?

[IronButt70]

. at what point is it a real issue to HD ?

When it costs the share holders money.

BINGO!!! We have a winner.

[HD/Wrench]

New model new issues ..  HD will solve it as that is not something that can be a turn your head the other way ..

Don't they have an extensive history of doing just that?

How would anyone know this is happening without tearing the heads off. HD will just say that the leak down is within spec and there is no reason to pull the head. Even if you persuaded them to pull it under warranty, it looks like T-mann went to significant lengths to determine where the leak actually was, what tech at an HD dealer is ever going to do that?

NONE ..

[HV]

If a HD Tech called the MOCO with excessive leak down #s......(A)they would not pay for him to check the Seats (B) they would just send a replacement Head and would want the old one back unmolested