Max Cell cams ?

[HD/Wrench]

Took a phone this morning for a tune . Customer tells me about his kit 117 bored M8 and max cell cams gives me the specs  I have never heard of these , from a  Shop called  Jims V twin performance ..  Cam is a M838  544 lift 222/232 intake is like 14-34 ex 40/12 .

So looks like a few more cams on the market . 

[rigidthumper]

Isn't that a lot of lift for an M8?  Def not a bolt in for any of the current HD/SE stuff.

[HD/Wrench]

it would need springs for sure ..  Dont know much other than what I wrote .. I did a search and found a harley shop that built a 124 and use that cam made huge tq  looked like 147 ish .. Was hard to see the sheet , but no other specs where listed so I could not say what else was done I think hp was in the 135 range ..

[1FSTRK]

I won't say they won't make work but I will say there is no reason to open the valves that far in a four valve head to make power.

[crewchief25H]

Been using his parts since 2010, Jim Gutches is his name. Built Nascar engines for RCR, DEI and several other nascar teams for the last 20 years..  Quantico Harley uses his parts exclusively. 

[1FSTRK]

I do not question the guy or his skills, lots of HD guys trying to make the jump to 4 valves also.
Simply look at performance cams for hot street power on import bikes or cars and you will see what I am saying. Better yet look at the air curves for good 4 valve heads or run them on a engine sim program.

[crewchief25H]

it would need springs for sure ..  Dont know much other than what I wrote .. I did a search and found a harley shop that built a 124 and use that cam made huge tq  looked like 147 ish .. Was hard to see the sheet , but no other specs where listed so I could not say what else was done I think hp was in the 135 range ..

2017 Limited  58HPI, stock heads only springs, std se air cleaner, fuel moto head pipe Rinehart slip ons.  127/147 is what it is.

[crewchief25H]

Been using his parts since 2010, Jim Gutches is his name. Built Nascar engines for RCR, DEI and several other nascar teams for the last 20 years..  Quantico Harley uses his parts exclusively.

I need to correct what I posted. He worked for RCR, AJ Foyt Racing, Penske Racing, Chip Ganassi Racing

[harleytuner]

Steve, I have a '17 CVO in for a tune with a set of these cams, heavy breather and a Thunderheader getting tuned with a Vision.  I'll E-mail you the sheet when i'm done.  As stated above, Quantico HD uses them a lot so they are somewhat popular in our area.

[sfmichael]

Been using his parts since 2010, Jim Gutches is his name. Built Nascar engines for RCR, DEI and several other nascar teams for the last 20 years..  Quantico Harley uses his parts exclusively.

Sounds like a very talented guy.  
I'm pretty shocked that an HD dealer would use aftermarket parts exclusively as warranty concerns would most certainly arise. I had to twist arms at my dealership to get them to deviate from the SE catalog and we didn't do it often.

[harleytuner]

Been using his parts since 2010, Jim Gutches is his name. Built Nascar engines for RCR, DEI and several other nascar teams for the last 20 years..  Quantico Harley uses his parts exclusively.

Sounds like a very talented guy.  
I'm pretty shocked that an HD dealer would use aftermarket parts exclusively as warranty concerns would most certainly arise. I had to twist arms at my dealership to get them to deviate from the SE catalog and we didn't do it often.

I asked my customer (Joe) if he was worried about his warranty when he dropped his bike with Max Cell cams out in at this dealer.  He said they told him it didn't effect his warranty in any way (Max Cell cams, Thunderheader and Power Vision).  Whatever they are telling these guys they're buying it ut hook line and sinker.  This is the sane dealer that cuts a neck on a nrw bike, slaps on a 26" wheel, some custom body work and paint and puts them on the floor for sale. 

This Jims Vtwin guy has used a couple other business names and his shop adress comes back to a house,  I curious how well they do, hopefully I'll get out tuned thursday.

[1FSTRK]

Been using his parts since 2010, Jim Gutches is his name. Built Nascar engines for RCR, DEI and several other nascar teams for the last 20 years..  Quantico Harley uses his parts exclusively.

Sounds like a very talented guy.  
I'm pretty shocked that an HD dealer would use aftermarket parts exclusively as warranty concerns would most certainly arise. I had to twist arms at my dealership to get them to deviate from the SE catalog and we didn't do it often.

I asked my customer (Joe) if he was worried about his warranty when he dropped his bike with Max Cell cams out in at this dealer.  He said they told him it didn't effect his warranty in any way (Max Cell cams, Thunderheader and Power Vision).  Whatever they are telling these guys they're buying it ut hook line and sinker.  This is the sane dealer that cuts a neck on a nrw bike, slaps on a 26" wheel, some custom body work and paint and puts them on the floor for sale. 

This Jims Vtwin guy has used a couple other business names and his shop adress comes back to a house,  I curious how well they do, hopefully I'll get out tuned thursday.

It would be great to get info from a tuner/member with your experience. I hope you will share the data as well as your impressions of the cam and how it is to tune.
I do not see anything that would indicate it will have bad manors or lack in power but without good data we can speculate til the cows come home. 

[harleytuner]

Been using his parts since 2010, Jim Gutches is his name. Built Nascar engines for RCR, DEI and several other nascar teams for the last 20 years..  Quantico Harley uses his parts exclusively.

Sounds like a very talented guy.  
I'm pretty shocked that an HD dealer would use aftermarket parts exclusively as warranty concerns would most certainly arise. I had to twist arms at my dealership to get them to deviate from the SE catalog and we didn't do it often.

I asked my customer (Joe) if he was worried about his warranty when he dropped his bike with Max Cell cams out in at this dealer.  He said they told him it didn't effect his warranty in any way (Max Cell cams, Thunderheader and Power Vision).  Whatever they are telling these guys they're buying it ut hook line and sinker.  This is the sane dealer that cuts a neck on a nrw bike, slaps on a 26" wheel, some custom body work and paint and puts them on the floor for sale. 

This Jims Vtwin guy has used a couple other business names and his shop adress comes back to a house,  I curious how well they do, hopefully I'll get out tuned thursday.

It would be great to get info from a tuner/member with your experience. I hope you will share the data as well as your impressions of the cam and how it is to tune.
I do not see anything that would indicate it will have bad manors or lack in power but without good data we can speculate til the cows come home.

We'll see, he told me he thinks it's a 818 cam but I don't see it on the list Crewcheif posted, maybe the 808?  I'll habe to get more info before I start the tune.  I'll more than likely post the sheet in Facebook but to be honest,  I really don't GAF about posting sheets much anymore anywhere.  There's just to much B.S. in this industry to take much stock in what you see.  I'm curious to talk to Steve after he tunes his though.   Not sure what all the bike has done to it though.  Mine is a stock bore CVO with stock heads and all.  It was tuned before with a different exhaust (don't know who Did the initial tune,  I'm guessing Quantico HD). 

[VDeuce]

No information on the web anywhere that I could find about these.

[harleytuner]

Got this from my customer

[turboprop]

Been using his parts since 2010, Jim Gutches is his name. Built Nascar engines for RCR, DEI and several other nascar teams for the last 20 years..  Quantico Harley uses his parts exclusively.

Sounds like a very talented guy.  
I'm pretty shocked that an HD dealer would use aftermarket parts exclusively as warranty concerns would most certainly arise. I had to twist arms at my dealership to get them to deviate from the SE catalog and we didn't do it often.

I asked my customer (Joe) if he was worried about his warranty when he dropped his bike with Max Cell cams out in at this dealer.  He said they told him it didn't effect his warranty in any way (Max Cell cams, Thunderheader and Power Vision).  Whatever they are telling these guys they're buying it ut hook line and sinker.  This is the sane dealer that cuts a neck on a nrw bike, slaps on a 26" wheel, some custom body work and paint and puts them on the floor for sale. 

This Jims Vtwin guy has used a couple other business names and his shop adress comes back to a house,  I curious how well they do, hopefully I'll get out tuned thursday.

The guy is obviously shady. The spec sheet for his cams using .050" lift as a measuring point breaks of sneakiness. I bet he copied an existing cam grind and is passing it off as his own.

[harleytuner]

Been using his parts since 2010, Jim Gutches is his name. Built Nascar engines for RCR, DEI and several other nascar teams for the last 20 years..  Quantico Harley uses his parts exclusively.

Sounds like a very talented guy.  
I'm pretty shocked that an HD dealer would use aftermarket parts exclusively as warranty concerns would most certainly arise. I had to twist arms at my dealership to get them to deviate from the SE catalog and we didn't do it often.

I asked my customer (Joe) if he was worried about his warranty when he dropped his bike with Max Cell cams out in at this dealer.  He said they told him it didn't effect his warranty in any way (Max Cell cams, Thunderheader and Power Vision).  Whatever they are telling these guys they're buying it ut hook line and sinker.  This is the sane dealer that cuts a neck on a nrw bike, slaps on a 26" wheel, some custom body work and paint and puts them on the floor for sale. 

This Jims Vtwin guy has used a couple other business names and his shop adress comes back to a house,  I curious how well they do, hopefully I'll get out tuned thursday.

The guy is obviously shady. The spec sheet for his cams using .050" lift as a measuring point breaks of sneakiness. I bet he copied an existing cam grind and is passing it off as his own.

Looks real close to a T-man cam if I recall.  I believe Andrews has one real similar as well.   My guess is its a copy as well

[1FSTRK]

Been using his parts since 2010, Jim Gutches is his name. Built Nascar engines for RCR, DEI and several other nascar teams for the last 20 years..  Quantico Harley uses his parts exclusively.

Sounds like a very talented guy.  
I'm pretty shocked that an HD dealer would use aftermarket parts exclusively as warranty concerns would most certainly arise. I had to twist arms at my dealership to get them to deviate from the SE catalog and we didn't do it often.

I asked my customer (Joe) if he was worried about his warranty when he dropped his bike with Max Cell cams out in at this dealer.  He said they told him it didn't effect his warranty in any way (Max Cell cams, Thunderheader and Power Vision).  Whatever they are telling these guys they're buying it ut hook line and sinker.  This is the sane dealer that cuts a neck on a nrw bike, slaps on a 26" wheel, some custom body work and paint and puts them on the floor for sale. 

This Jims Vtwin guy has used a couple other business names and his shop adress comes back to a house,  I curious how well they do, hopefully I'll get out tuned thursday.

The guy is obviously shady. The spec sheet for his cams using .050" lift as a measuring point breaks of sneakiness. I bet he copied an existing cam grind and is passing it off as his own.

Aren't all M-8 cams spec'd at .050 lift?

[turboprop]

Been using his parts since 2010, Jim Gutches is his name. Built Nascar engines for RCR, DEI and several other nascar teams for the last 20 years..  Quantico Harley uses his parts exclusively.

Sounds like a very talented guy.  
I'm pretty shocked that an HD dealer would use aftermarket parts exclusively as warranty concerns would most certainly arise. I had to twist arms at my dealership to get them to deviate from the SE catalog and we didn't do it often.

I asked my customer (Joe) if he was worried about his warranty when he dropped his bike with Max Cell cams out in at this dealer.  He said they told him it didn't effect his warranty in any way (Max Cell cams, Thunderheader and Power Vision).  Whatever they are telling these guys they're buying it ut hook line and sinker.  This is the sane dealer that cuts a neck on a nrw bike, slaps on a 26" wheel, some custom body work and paint and puts them on the floor for sale. 

This Jims Vtwin guy has used a couple other business names and his shop adress comes back to a house,  I curious how well they do, hopefully I'll get out tuned thursday.

The guy is obviously shady. The spec sheet for his cams using .050" lift as a measuring point breaks of sneakiness. I bet he copied an existing cam grind and is passing it off as his own.

Aren't all M-8 cams spec'd at .050 lift?

No.

[TorQuePimp]

Specs at .050 make a cam sketchy  or shady ?

Everyone else does it that way.....that damn sifton guy had to go and make Harley cams ....spec them wrong..... everyone else followed suit

[turboprop]

Specs at .050 make a cam sketchy  or shady ?

Everyone else does it that way.....that damn sifton guy had to go and make Harley cams ....spec them wrong..... everyone else followed suit

Wrong. No, everyone does not do it that way. But dont take my word for it. Look here:

Zippers
http://www.zippersperformance.com/index.php/downloads/dl/file/id/29/product/0/catalog_red_shift_cams.pdf

Andrews
http://www.andrewsproducts.com/sites/www.andrewsproducts.com/files/catalog_pdfs/page_06_0.pdf

S&S
https://www.sscycle.com/tech-info/instructions-data/cam-specs-overview

Black Widow
http://www.crazyhorsespeedshop.com/twin-cam-engines.html

GMR
http://gmrperformance.com/products/cams/

[sfmichael]

been seeing cam specs measured @ .050 +/- for as long as I can remember

[turboprop]

Well, maybe your and the pimp should tell S&S, Andrews, RedShift, Black Widow Crane, and many others they have been doing it wrong all these years.

[1FSTRK]

Been using his parts since 2010, Jim Gutches is his name. Built Nascar engines for RCR, DEI and several other nascar teams for the last 20 years..  Quantico Harley uses his parts exclusively.

Sounds like a very talented guy.  
I'm pretty shocked that an HD dealer would use aftermarket parts exclusively as warranty concerns would most certainly arise. I had to twist arms at my dealership to get them to deviate from the SE catalog and we didn't do it often.

I asked my customer (Joe) if he was worried about his warranty when he dropped his bike with Max Cell cams out in at this dealer.  He said they told him it didn't effect his warranty in any way (Max Cell cams, Thunderheader and Power Vision).  Whatever they are telling these guys they're buying it ut hook line and sinker.  This is the sane dealer that cuts a neck on a nrw bike, slaps on a 26" wheel, some custom body work and paint and puts them on the floor for sale. 

This Jims Vtwin guy has used a couple other business names and his shop adress comes back to a house,  I curious how well they do, hopefully I'll get out tuned thursday.

The guy is obviously shady. The spec sheet for his cams using .050" lift as a measuring point breaks of sneakiness. I bet he copied an existing cam grind and is passing it off as his own.

Aren't all M-8 cams spec'd at .050 lift?

No.

Thanks for bring that up.
That is actually valuable info right there. I would not call it shady but I missed the fact Zippers was posting M-8 cam timing at .053 like the old Harley cams instead of at .050 which is what the OEM factory specs, SE specs, and Andrews specs are for the M-8 cams. I did not see the timing lift for M-8 cams specified on the S&S, or T-man sites and neither Cyclerama or Wood give specs. This will will be something to watch for in the future to see who uses the .050 and who chooses to go back to the .053 even though the cams for 2 valve and 4 valve head are really not that comparable. 

[Nastytls]

For those of us that do not know, what would the difference be if measuring at .050 vs. .053? Is there a benefit to claim it's .050 instead of .053?

[turboprop]

For those of us that do not know, what would the difference be if measuring at .050 vs. .053? Is there a benefit to claim it's .050 instead of .053?

It changes the published/measured timing events. If someone wanted to lets say copy a competitors grind, they could publish timing events measured at a different lift. Makes it harder to compare apples to apples.

[joe_lyons]

Some companies use .053, others use .050 and even some use seat to seat.  There is no exact industry-standard that everybody has to publish.

[Jamie Long]

For those of us that do not know, what would the difference be if measuring at .050 vs. .053? Is there a benefit to claim it's .050 instead of .053?

The difference between .050 and .053 reference is about 1 degree in event timing, about 2 degrees in duration. In the end this makes no difference in the cam itself, it's simply reference points.

I know nothing about this company or their cams, however if we want new products to come to market and move the envelope forward we have to give them fair shot. It seem some are playing judge, jury, and executioner before the components have even been tested. This is also not helping user participation on this and other sites. 

[harleytuner]

I got the bike tuned today, turned out pretty good.  Made 110HP and 128TRQ, carried 120TRQ from 2200 to 4500. 

[TorQuePimp]

Specs at .050 make a cam sketchy  or shady ?

Everyone else does it that way.....that damn sifton guy had to go and make Harley cams ....spec them wrong..... everyone else followed suit

Wrong. No, everyone does not do it that way. But dont take my word for it. Look here:

Zippers
http://www.zippersperformance.com/index.php/downloads/dl/file/id/29/product/0/catalog_red_shift_cams.pdf

Andrews
http://www.andrewsproducts.com/sites/www.andrewsproducts.com/files/catalog_pdfs/page_06_0.pdf

S&S
https://www.sscycle.com/tech-info/instructions-data/cam-specs-overview

Black Widow
http://www.crazyhorsespeedshop.com/twin-cam-engines.html

GMR
http://gmrperformance.com/products/cams/

As usual head in the sand

Sifton started the .053 nonsense...... everyone else followed suit

By everyone else..... everyone but the Harley market

Important to us but a very small market

So not shady..... normal

[sfmichael]

For those of us that do not know, what would the difference be if measuring at .050 vs. .053? Is there a benefit to claim it's .050 instead of .053?

The difference between .050 and .053 reference is about 1 degree in event timing, about 2 degrees in duration. In the end this makes no difference in the cam itself, it's simply reference points.

I know nothing about this company or their cams, however if we want new products to come to market and move the envelope forward we have to give them fair shot. It seem some are playing judge, jury, and executioner before the components have even been tested. This is also not helping user participation on this and other sites.

^^^ this

[shovelbill]

maybe Jim Leineweber will come out with some M8 cams........measured at .020"

[turboprop]

maybe Jim Leineweber will come out with some M8 cams........measured at .020"

Jim also publishes his specs at .053". Like almost everyone else in the harley industry.

[TorQuePimp]

So how is publishing specs at .050 shady ?

[1FSTRK]

So how is publishing specs at .050 shady ?

Of course it is not shady.
I have to wonder how much of this comes from the factory getting help from the auto industry for these 4 valve heads because .050 specs are common there. It is also common knowledge they have in the past and Hd set the M8 precedent by publishing the OEM specs and SE cam specs at .050. Andrews followed suite using .050 specs with some of the first aftermarket M8 cams available as do the cams that started this thread which kept all things comparable in the M8 market . Some where in the game someone that makes cams for the earlier HD engines decided to use the old HD standard .053 spec number on their M8 cam and now we loose parity. We will never know if it was because they just did things the old way or if it was to separate their products from the pack but this thread proves it only adds confusion to an already confused customer base. The new cam timed that comes with 4 valve flow is a learning curve for even the HD pros but it is twice as hard for the DIY guys when the industry itself is confused. In trying to get or keep an edge on the market many do not even tell what timing lift they used while others give no timing specs at all.

I personally think the timing spec is the smallest issue here, it has overshadowed the the fact that many are creeping back to their 2 valve ways by adding more and more lift to these 4 valve heads. On top of having very little in return the high lift ignores the advantages of 4 valve heads and returns the customer to all the disadvantages of heavy springs, pushrod weight or flex, lifter problems, valve train noise as well as wear and tear. 

[Don D]

It's a defacto or is .050" an SAE standard in automotive?

[shovelbill]

maybe Jim Leineweber will come out with some M8 cams........measured at .020"

Jim also publishes his specs at .053". Like almost everyone else in the harley industry.

i''m sorry if my sense of humor was lost over the interweb......

[mike jesse]

Unless you are taking the time to degree the cam in, who cares.

Most will be installed lining up the dots on the gears. Done.

[NCTURBOS]

(704) area code... So, he's local to me. I'll have to look into him, his shop, etc...

Since he's been in the automotive race profession, as mentioned earlier, I can see where he's using .050" as his reference measurement.

K.

[HarleyFranco]

HarleyTuner that looks like a fun bike to drive.  Plus I can't believe 10 posts went by and nobody commented.

I got the bike tuned today, turned out pretty good.  Made 110HP and 128TRQ, carried 120TRQ from 2200 to 4500. 

Good job!

Frank

[FLSTFIDave]

I got the bike tuned today, turned out pretty good.  Made 110HP and 128TRQ, carried 120TRQ from 2200 to 4500.

That has to be a fun ride.  Nice torque for sure.