I think I just joined the sumping club

[richbiker]

Yesterday I was cruising up the freeway for 15 minutes and just as my exit came up I started feeling the power falling off,  down shifted and it felt like I down shifted 2-3 gears because of the drag from the engine, down shifted again and same thing, looked in the mirror and saw massive amount of blue smoke coming out of the exhaust, came to a stop and the engine died and will not restart. 
Towed to the Dealer and they say it will be a week or so before they can get a look at it.
My bike is 2017 CVO ultra limited engine is stock, has a High flow air cleaner and fullsac exhaust head pipe and baffles. 2,703 miles

My biggest concern is I have heard a lot of the sumping  bikes have had the engine replaced and it sound like others only get the oil pump replaced.  How likely is it that I will need an engine verses just a pump? and how deep do they disassemble to inspect everything?

The dealer is telling me it will be 1 week before they can look at it so I have a lot of time to speculate and waist time.

[happyman]

just wait for your dealer to contact  HD. they call the shots.  did you notice any strong oder of burnt oil by chance. sounds like it may have got pretty warm. pull the dip stick and check oil.  see how it compares to the last time you checked it. then take a wiff of the oil. its tell tale I have to think. Good luck  for sure.

[richbiker]

Yes the smoke was definitely oil burning, and yes the oil tank is low now and was fine before the ride.  Also when I opened the dipstick the tank was pressurized never seen that before.

[VDeuce]

Yes the smoke was definitely oil burning, and yes the oil tank is low now and was fine before the ride.  Also when I opened the dipstick the tank was pressurized never seen that before.

Interesting. Goes to speculation there is a case venting (lack of) issue.

[VDeuce]

Speculation, but with yours not being able to start + the smoke, I would bet you are looking at a replacement engine. They will pull the crank sensor and lots of oil will come out. They will borescope it and likely find damage. Then they call the mothership.

Google harley m1450 and look at the service bulletin.

[tmwmoose]

Speculation, but with yours not being able to start + the smoke, I would bet you are looking at a replacement engine. They will pull the crank sensor and lots of oil will come out. They will borescope it and likely find damage. Then they call the mothership.

Google harley m1450 and look at the service bulletin.

If the motor if full of oil why is it toast especially with so much under the pistons ? As far as not starting if its full of oil and can't turn over against the resistance/drag of excess oil and possibly fowled plugs why is the engine toast ? Reason I ask is I remember XL motors doing this and nothing got overheated and fried . Need educating please

[happyman]

when these things sump they get very hot.  crank, balancer, and rods all submersed in , dragging the motor down and as it does, produces huge amounts of heat, which by the way will discolor everything in the case if it gets hot enough .. it also has a terrible oder to it when ya pop the dipstick on the oil reservoir. with the heat comes the destruction of the motor if its hot enough and if your out there rolling along at 70-85 mph  cruise set, and listening to tunes if weather is right yu will feel the heat on your boots and right leg without any doubt.   
 

[PoorUB]

My bike is 2017 CVO ultra limited engine is stock, has a High flow air cleaner and fullsac exhaust head pipe and baffles. 2,703 miles

I hope your dealer likes you. If they want to be dicks about it, your exhaust voided your warranty!

[92flhtcu]

Richbiker, please keep us posted
Thanks!

[richbiker]

As tings unfold I will let you all know.

As for the exhaust my dealer still pushes stage 1 kits with aftermarket head pipe and V&H Fuel Pack.  So I hope I am safe because several of my friends payed them for V&H and Rush head pipes so if they Void me they better void them too.

[Dave I.]

Must have done it real good. My buddies 17 cvo stage iv has sumped 3 times and never smoked or locked up. Hope they make it right for you and get you back riding soon.

[happyman]

Must have done it real good. My buddies 17 cvo stage iv has sumped 3 times and never smoked or locked up. Hope they make it right for you and get you back riding soon.

did it ruin the motor  or what happened

[Dave I.]

Not yet. I keep telling him to try and blow it up. 7 year warranty so HD might have it figured out by then. They just keep throwing oil pumps at it. Supposedly has the latest greatest in it now.

[BVHOG]

To be as bad as described I would suspect a broken scavenge gear, will be interesting to see the results of the tear down

[happyman]

How often does the savage gear break?

[rbabos]

How often does the savage gear break?

Generally never unless something hard goes through it and snaps the rotor.
Ron

[lickidysplit]

As tings unfold I will let you all know.

As for the exhaust my dealer still pushes stage 1 kits with aftermarket head pipe and V&H Fuel Pack.  So I hope I am safe because several of my friends payed them for V&H and Rush head pipes so if they Void me they better void them too.

Not to worry, you are after all "rich biker". But all jokes aside the Moco should stand behind you on this issue. I hope it is sorted out in a quick manner. If a dealer installs it then everything should be good. I would think the dealer would stand behind you.

[PoorUB]

It might be up to the dealer as we all have heard of the MoCo refusing warranty on modded motorcycles. If it is at the dealer that did the mods it should turn out ok as long as the factory does not get involved.

[Jim Bronson]

One week is too long, especially for a $43K bike. That's about what I paid for my '17 Mustang GT 5.0 Premium. My dealer would have a tech on it the following day.

[tmwmoose]

One week is too long, especially for a $43K bike. That's about what I paid for my '17 Mustang GT 5.0 Premium. My dealer would have a tech on it the following day.

When I worked at the dealerships in the 70s and the most expensive bikes were $6500-$8400 we jumped on new bike warranty the day it arrived or the next day

[CW#]

My bike is 2017 CVO ultra limited engine is stock, has a High flow air cleaner and fullsac exhaust head pipe and baffles. 2,703 miles

I hope your dealer likes you. If they want to be dicks about it, your exhaust voided your warranty!

That's not necessarily true... it has to be proven that the exhaust change caused the problem and if the dealer installed them or no one else with those pipes has this issue or if it can be shown that sumping caused the problem the pipes don't effect the warranty... even knowledgeably pipes that aren't wide open would never do this to an engine in 2700+ miles... it would be quicker or longer. If they deny the warranty get them immediately notified that ALL parts will be returned to you along with the oil in preparation for a lawsuit.

[Coyote]

My bike is 2017 CVO ultra limited engine is stock, has a High flow air cleaner and fullsac exhaust head pipe and baffles. 2,703 miles

I hope your dealer likes you. If they want to be dicks about it, your exhaust voided your warranty!

That's not necessarily true... it has to be proven that the exhaust change caused the problem and if the dealer installed them or no one else with those pipes has this issue or if it can be shown that sumping caused the problem the pipes don't effect the warranty... even knowledgeably pipes that aren't wide open would never do this to an engine in 2700+ miles... it would be quicker or longer. If they deny the warranty get them immediately notified that ALL parts will be returned to you along with the oil in preparation for a lawsuit.

Part of HDs settlement with the EPA is that they are to revoke warranties on any newer bikes with any mods to the motor/emissions parts. They can, have and will invalidate the warranty.

[PoorUB]

My bike is 2017 CVO ultra limited engine is stock, has a High flow air cleaner and fullsac exhaust head pipe and baffles. 2,703 miles

I hope your dealer likes you. If they want to be dicks about it, your exhaust voided your warranty!

That's not necessarily true... it has to be proven that the exhaust change caused the problem and if the dealer installed them or no one else with those pipes has this issue or if it can be shown that sumping caused the problem the pipes don't effect the warranty... even knowledgeably pipes that aren't wide open would never do this to an engine in 2700+ miles... it would be quicker or longer. If they deny the warranty get them immediately notified that ALL parts will be returned to you along with the oil in preparation for a lawsuit.

Part of HDs settlement with the EPA is that they are to revoke warranties on any newer bikes with any mods to the motor/emissions parts. They can, have and will invalidate the warranty.

It also clearly state that in the warranty the any unapproved modifications can void the warranty, such as non-EPA approved exhaust. I forget the exact wording, but this is close.

Read here, http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=103674.0   the thread is about trailer hitches, but it mentions modifications.

Oh hell, read this from that thread,

Read #4 .... copied from the 2017 Softail Owners Manual

Exclusions

This limited warranty will not apply to any motorcycle.

1.Which has not been operated or maintained as specified in the owner's manual.


2.Which has been abused, neglected, misused, improperly stored, used "off the highway," or used for racing or competition of any kind.


3.Which is not manufactured to comply with the laws of the market in which it is registered.


4.Which has off-road or competition parts installed to enhance performance, a trailer hitch, or has other unapproved modifications (even if these modifications include genuine Harley-Davidson parts and accessories that are not approved for use on your motorcycle). These modifications may void all or parts of your new motorcycle limited warranty. See an authorized Harley-Davidson dealer for details.


5.Which has been subjected to an act of God, war, riot, insurrection, nuclear contamination, natural disasters, including, but not limited to, lightning, forest fires, dust storms, hail storms, ice storms, earthquakes, or floods, or other circumstances out of Harley-Davidson's control.


6.Which has been in an accident or collision or has been dropped or struck.


As far as I know FulSac does not make a EPA approved exhaust, their exhausts are for off road or race use only. (Like that stops anyone!)

I often wondered why HD would allow anyone to mod their motorcycle, then have engine trouble and warranty it! If I sold you a stock Harley and a week later you brought it back with a blown up engine and it had different exhaust, AC and a tuner installed I sure would not warranty it!!

And to CW, is your attorney bigger than the motor companies? Plus when it states in the owners manual that modifications might void your warranty? Good luck with that lawsuit!

[moose]

so they won't look for a week    take it home to clean it and bring back the day they said they would look at it   (with stock exhaust) if your dealer is really a richard

[richbiker]

UPDATE

when I dropped off the bike I told the service adviser the everything I said in my original post and all he put on the work order was "blue smoke and died".
SO the tech started it and went for a drive.  It did smoke lightly when he first started it and while on the drive the smoke went away.
He check a few things and found the head vent where twisted some and possibly pinched he also checked the oil level and it was now fine.
I then talked to the service manager and he agreed that he did not get the correct info from the adviser and they will do some more tests.
I asked if they had seen any bikes that have Sumped and he said no, so I asked him to look into bulletin 1450.
They are closed sunday and monday so we will see how long it takes them to get back to my bike.
   

[VDeuce]

Yeah I would have them pull the crank sensor and see how much oil comes out. The whole "we never heard of that" gets cut down real quick when they see the service bulletin.

[happyman]

Yeah I would have them pull the crank sensor and see how much oil comes out. The whole "we never heard of that" gets cut down real quick when they see the service bulletin.

[jamminhd2000]

Hi Rich...Any updates yet?...Jimmy

[richbiker]

HD said the only thing they found was the vent lines where pinched and that caused the problem
I do agree that that can cause some smoke I do not believe it is the cause of the amount of smoke and the engine drag.
I did get the bike back and as soon as my schedule frees up I will see if it happens again

[happyman]

HD said the only thing they found was the vent lines where pinched and that caused the problem
I do agree that that can cause some smoke I do not believe it is the cause of the amount of smoke and the engine drag.
I did get the bike back and as soon as my schedule frees up I will see if it happens again

curious what are these vent lines??  transmission vent?  I know what that is.  regardless interesting fable here.

[richbiker]

t

HD said the only thing they found was the vent lines where pinched and that caused the problem
I do agree that that can cause some smoke I do not believe it is the cause of the amount of smoke and the engine drag.
I did get the bike back and as soon as my schedule frees up I will see if it happens again

curious what are these vent lines??  transmission vent?  I know what that is.  regardless interesting fable here.

The vents (breathers) on the cyl. heads to the air intake system

[Little Wing]

Yesterday I was cruising up the freeway for 15 minutes and just as my exit came up I started feeling the power falling off,  down shifted and it felt like I down shifted 2-3 gears because of the drag from the engine, down shifted again and same thing, looked in the mirror and saw massive amount of blue smoke coming out of the exhaust, came to a stop and the engine died and will not restart.

were you by any chance in 6th gear and under 3000 rpm? how fast were you going?
the service manager told me to avoid staying in 6th gear under 4000 rpm on the highway. said the rings don't seat properly causing higher crankcase pressure ()
engine definitely runs hotter when i cruise under those conditions.

[happyman]

They need to put out case that work and breathers in the heads. Then get the pump issue resolved.

[rbabos]

Yesterday I was cruising up the freeway for 15 minutes and just as my exit came up I started feeling the power falling off,  down shifted and it felt like I down shifted 2-3 gears because of the drag from the engine, down shifted again and same thing, looked in the mirror and saw massive amount of blue smoke coming out of the exhaust, came to a stop and the engine died and will not restart.

were you by any chance in 6th gear and under 3000 rpm? how fast were you going?
the service manager told me to avoid staying in 6th gear under 4000 rpm on the highway. said the rings don't seat properly causing higher crankcase pressure ()
engine definitely runs hotter when i cruise under those conditions.

Your service manager needs schooling on how engines work.
Ron

[Hossamania]

I agree. If it can't run below 4000 rpms in 6th gear, why can it run below 4000 rpms in the rest of the gears?
And isn't 4000 rpms in 6th gear like 95 miles an hour?

[happyman]

I agree. If it can't run below 4000 rpms in 6th gear, why can it run below 4000 rpms in the rest of the gears?
And isn't 4000 rpms in 6th gear like 95 miles an hour?

so the cure now is put 3:15  gears and 5 speed transmission in um problem solved HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA razzle dazzle BS at its finest.

[Little Wing]

well shucks, fellas, i don't know. that's what he told me.

it does run hotter in 6th gear on the highway. maybe at 80 mph it's getting more air into the intake.

just my humble opinion.

i have a 113 in an older softail that does the same thing.

[rbabos]

well shucks, fellas, i don't know. that's what he told me.

it does run hotter in 6th gear on the highway. maybe at 80 mph it's getting more air into the intake.

just my humble opinion.

i have a 113 in an older softail that does the same thing.

The load is a bit higher in 6th then fifth and this can be seen by either logging or marking the throttle grip. Takes more throttle to go the same speed in 6th then 5th at the lower speeds. That's why it runs a bit hotter and fuel milage will not be as good as in fifth. Engine is just not efficient at that state. There comes a point where 6th is the go to gear for higher mph and there's also more cooling air that goes with it to counter some of the heat plus the engine is higher in rpm and more efficient to handle the extra loading . Load is what actually forces the rings out to the cyls so sealing is good . Down side is, if the ring sealing isn't great for what ever reason, warped cyls, botched breakin or whatever,  this also increases blowby past them and into the case. Worst case, you carry a bit more oil mist over to the breather. Breathers won't allow the case to build pressure as your tech mentioned to the point where the rings are forced off of the bottom lands on the piston.  Sumping on the other hand is not ring related at all but pump related.
Ron

[Not-too-late]

5th 6th load and engine health

Can you explain this further?

On long rolls on slab, I use 6th above 60 mph.

2017 UL

[rbabos]

5th 6th load and engine health

Can you explain this further?

On long rolls on slab, I use 6th above 60 mph.

2017 UL

It's likely the entry point for that gear. Those engines get happy at 3k.
Be prepared for the endless lugging threads now. Mind you when I had the 120ci, I would loaf along at 60 in sixth but primary gearing was not stock with the 49 tooth clutch basket sprocket. The stock 96" the bike was too gutless to use 6th below 70 mph and even then begged for a down shift it it saw a small hill coming.
Ron

[Not-too-late]

IMO--the M8 pulls real well in quite a range.

[Partsman64]

So.............are most of the sumping problems with the CVO's or a Stage 3 or 4 build?  I have a M8 with a Stage 2 (torque cam) and it's got me a little gun shy.  Anyone out there with a Stage 2, and having sumping problems?  I called a local shop for a good tune, and right away he wanted to sell me a fueling pump and cam plate due to the "horrible" oiling that the stock pump provides.  I'm looking at $1200 just to get that done.

Confused on what to do.............................

Thanks for any help!!

[happyman]

So.............are most of the sumping problems with the CVO's or a Stage 3 or 4 build?  I have a M8 with a Stage 2 (torque cam) and it's got me a little gun shy.  Anyone out there with a Stage 2, and having sumping problems?  I called a local shop for a good tune, and right away he wanted to sell me a fueling pump and cam plate due to the "horrible" oiling that the stock pump provides.  I'm looking at $1200 just to get that done.

Confused on what to do.............................

Thanks for any help!!

Call Harley customer service and ask then when they will up date or repair all the 17 and 18 m8 motors.  while they are at it repair the  tranny to primary migration of oil. by the way  the stock motors are not immune to any of this so you know.

[klammer76]

So.............are most of the sumping problems with the CVO's or a Stage 3 or 4 build?  I have a M8 with a Stage 2 (torque cam) and it's got me a little gun shy.  Anyone out there with a Stage 2, and having sumping problems?  I called a local shop for a good tune, and right away he wanted to sell me a fueling pump and cam plate due to the "horrible" oiling that the stock pump provides.  I'm looking at $1200 just to get that done.

Confused on what to do.............................

Thanks for any help!!

Call Harley customer service and ask then when they will up date or repair all the 17 and 18 m8 motors.  while they are at it repair the  tranny to primary migration of oil. by the way  the stock motors are not immune to any of this so you know.

Funny thing is, whenever I'm looking at M8's at any dealership and get asked "are you interested" and I reply "yeah, once the problems are ironed out and fixed then I'll be interested". I get the "what problems"? I talk about sumping and fluid transfer etc. I either get one of three replies, "they have all been fixed", "never heard of or seen it" or "don't believe the internet"    Just come out and admit it and fix the dammed things, try and save some integrity and move on. But I suspect from being around quite a while that will never happen with the Motor Company. If the do "make some upgrades" I suspect the 17 & 18 owners will be on their own. Just getting sick of seeing this stuff over and over from the factory bean counters.

[happyman]

Will  maybe see late August or so if HD  IS  interested in selling  bikes , or just staying in the banking business.

[FLDavetrain]

Will  maybe see late August or so if HD  IS  interested in selling  bikes , or just staying in the banking business.

Agreed.  Does anyone think it's possible for the '19s to be trouble free? Assembly line production for '19 had to begin months ago. How could they have engineered proper fixes, retooled, tested, and begun production in what would be only 18 mos or so since the '17 launch?

[HV]

Just got another one in today....

[hattitude]

Will  maybe see late August or so if HD  IS  interested in selling  bikes , or just staying in the banking business.

Agreed.  Does anyone think it's possible for the '19s to be trouble free? Assembly line production for '19 had to begin months ago. How could they have engineered proper fixes, retooled, tested, and begun production in what would be only 18 mos or so since the '17 launch?

Possible.... Yes, absolutely... probably could have happened for the '18 model year

Probable.... No, at least not the way the MoCo has been dealing with issues lately

I believe the MoCo knows full well, what is causing the oil transfer and the sumping. I suspect, at some point, they will make running production changes, without fanfare, to address these issues going forward (like compensators, auto primary chain tensioner, & cam tensioners... to name a few). It will be on their time table and when it's most beneficial economically to make the production changes.....

I also believe they are still trying to find a cheap, band-aid fix to handle any current, or future, warranty claims until the running changes are made. They certainly don't/won't pay to fix the issues properly for the '17, '18, and maybe even '19 model years.... thus the full court press on trying to make an oil pump that will overcome sumping and making some kind of seal for the pushrod to alleviate the oil transfer (since changing the allowable spec from zero to what, 4-6 oz didn't work)....

Luckily for the '17 & '18 model M8 owners, there are many customers who don't believe the oil transfer & sumping are really that big of a risk... therefore there will still be people, many clueless to the possible issues, willing to buy used M8 bikes.. Once out of warranty, they'll be on their own...

For me, you couldn't give an M8 bike right now... it's not the odds that it will have a problem, but the stakes if it does...