Tuner or Dyno tune?

[1FSTRK]

 We constantly have threads here asking about different brand tuners and dyno tuning. Those that use and love the self tuners are quick to tell you how great their bikes run but with nothing other than their butt to judge the results I always wonder how well does it run? I have a few times been able to talk a friend or riding buddy into getting their bike checked and even tuned on the dyno but it can take years for some if ever. For those that may be wondering this same thing I post this.

The bike is a 2013 Softail Slim 103ci. Stage one with a Roland Sands air cleaner, Rinehart Crossback exhaust, and Cobra Powerpro tuner. Everything was installed at the dealer and the bike had been run only 1000 miles then parked.  Last fall the bike changed hands and the new owner rode it a few thousand miles with no problems but did question the fuel mileage. After switching bikes with another Softail rider while on a Sunday cruise the subject of smoothness came up so the bike was checked over and a couple of the local self-tune pros took over to help. They called Cobra and made sure everything was installed correctly and went through all the extra tuning options available. After this everyone was sure the bike was running well although the owner did not notice much improvement.  I took this opportunity to suggest a quick run on the local dyno just to see how curve looked and what a professional tuner thought of it. Here is that graph.

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I rode this bike and while it was not my 110ci Softail it ran ok, had no real bad manners, a little decal pop (like the dealer said they all have that with aftermarket pipes) it did not cough or stall.

[kd]

How was the AFR?

[1FSTRK]

Unfortunately it was not checked on this run, but this tuner plugs into both the O2 sensors and both the injectors so the AFR was what ever the tuner was calling for after 4000 miles on the bike and about 800 miles of spirited and steady riding after being rechecked. 

[Hossamania]

The next step then would be to have it actually tuned to see if any improvement is worth the cost.
It's always going to be good enough until it is found that it could be much better, or maybe only marginally better.

[Ancient]

Seems that without a baseline run prior to the Cobra it's kinda hard to tell if it's doing anything. Makes me wonder if just the intake and exhaust alone wouldn't have gotten it where it is. Definitely appears down on HP.

[Hossamania]

Is this the same bike in the Dyno section that was tuned with a Power Vision and gained 12 horse and 12 pounds over this graph?

[PoorUB]

Keep in mind the typical Dyno chart just shows wide open throttle. How much time do you spend there? Almost zero if you tour. I would like to see HP and AFR at steady cruise, about 2,500-3,000 RPM. That means much more to me.

Also, a have had three different tunes done with two different Dyno guys, one very well respected. All three ran great but got crappy MPG at steady cruise. I street tuned them, the latest with a TTS and MPG went from 27 MPG to 38 MPG on the interstate. When I tuned them I left anything over 3,500 RPM alone and trusted the Dyno guy to get that close. I just wanted to bump up the MPG.

[Ancient]

DEL

[1FSTRK]

That day after seeing some graphs of other 103ci stage 1 bikes that had been dyno tuned the owner decided to go with a dyno tune so the first step was to remove the Powerpro and do a base run with the factory Cal alone. Here is that back to back graph.

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It actually picked up and the owner could not believe it was now looking forward to the tuning.

[Hossamania]

So you're saying the Powerpro tuner was less than ideal?

[1workinman]

Keep in mind the typical Dyno chart just shows wide open throttle. How much time do you spend there? Almost zero if you tour. I would like to see HP and AFR at steady cruise, about 2,500-3,000 RPM. That means much more to me.

Also, a have had three different tunes done with two different Dyno guys, one very well respected. All three ran great but got crappy MPG at steady cruise. I street tuned them, the latest with a TTS and MPG went from 27 MPG to 38 MPG on the interstate. When I tuned them I left anything over 3,500 RPM alone and trusted the Dyno guy to get that close. I just wanted to bump up the MPG.

That the truth there especially at light throttle angles

[1FSTRK]

Driven by a recent thread in the tuning section I was able to get this graph emailed to me. It shows back to back test runs during full throttle tuning of the timing tables. This is not the final but a sample of timing changes during the tuning process.

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[PoorUB]

I have no doubt a good dyno guy should be able to tune better than street tuning or using some auto tuner, at least at full throttle. With the experiences I have had I question if most dyno guys are not erring to the safe side and dumping in more fuel than needed to protect the engine.

Most dyno operators look at my tuning and shake their heads because in the cruising range 2,500 to 3,500 RPM and up to about 75 MAP or 40% throttle I run the Lamda right at 1.0. I have had guys tell me I can not do that as I will burn up the engine. With over 100,000 miles of lean burn riding it has not happened yet.

[1FSTRK]

Here are the final graphs. No changes to the bike, Air cleaner, pipes, all in the same gear, no games just tuning with the owner present.

Lower gragh is gear ratio

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The first and final runs.

[attach=1,msg1227969]

[Ohio HD]

Let's put a good dyno tune vs. a street tune with leaned out MAP for mileage into perspective.

In 1,000 miles ridden, 40mpg vs. 46mpg averaged. Fuel cost $2.56 per gallon. Over those 1,000 miles you would save $8.35 cents. I'd much rather have the motor very happy, and at it's peak in performance. In a week of vacation you saved a whopping $58.45. Peanuts in the grand scheme of a 7,000 mile trip if you rode 1,000 a day. Those are just numbers, as few ride that many every day. The average guy would see half of that savings in a week of vacation.


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[1FSTRK]

I would go beyond the money to say that a good dyno tune does not mean bad mileage.
A properly tuned bike will run cooler and smoother than a partially tuned bike at any AFR the owner chooses to run.

[PoorUB]

Let's put a good dyno tune vs. a street tune with leaned out MAP for mileage into perspective.

In 1,000 miles ridden, 40mpg vs. 46mpg averaged. Fuel cost $2.56 per gallon. Over those 1,000 miles you would save $8.35 cents. I'd much rather have the motor very happy, and at it's peak in performance. In a week of vacation you saved a whopping $58.45. Peanuts in the grand scheme of a 7,000 mile trip if you rode 1,000 a day. Those are just numbers, as few ride that many every day. The average guy would see half of that savings in a week of vacation.


[attach=0]

To me it is nothing to do with the dollar savings, it is range on a tank. I could care less what gas costs. Like I said before I had bikes tuned and got 27 MPG on the interstate. Gonenorth had his HD tuned the same day as mine at the same shop, same MPG. To me 27 MPG is just wrong, period! When a stock bike gets 37-38 MPG something is wrong at 27 MPG. Are you going to tell me that 27 MPG is an acceptable MPG for a slightly modded bike?

I am not trying to get 45 MPG on the interstate, just a reasonable MPG. Six gallon tank at 27 MPG give a 130 mile range, 38 MPG gives you a 190 mile range, both with a gallon to spare. My bladder and butt hold out much longer and I  don't want to stop if I don't have too, or worry about the next gas stop. I want to stop when I am ready to, not because the tank is empty. I ran 265 miles on a tank, rolling around Lake Superior at 55 MPH. I got excited when the 6 gallon tanks came out, 7 gallons would be better yet!

[Ohio HD]

My 124 gets 40mpg on the highway at a steady cruise. And it's not built for mpg.

Find a good dyno tuner.

[1FSTRK]

Let's put a good dyno tune vs. a street tune with leaned out MAP for mileage into perspective.

In 1,000 miles ridden, 40mpg vs. 46mpg averaged. Fuel cost $2.56 per gallon. Over those 1,000 miles you would save $8.35 cents. I'd much rather have the motor very happy, and at it's peak in performance. In a week of vacation you saved a whopping $58.45. Peanuts in the grand scheme of a 7,000 mile trip if you rode 1,000 a day. Those are just numbers, as few ride that many every day. The average guy would see half of that savings in a week of vacation.


[attach=0]

To me it is nothing to do with the dollar savings, it is range on a tank. I could care less what gas costs. Like I said before I had bikes tuned and got 27 MPG on the interstate. Gonenorth had his HD tuned the same day as mine at the same shop, same MPG. To me 27 MPG is just wrong, period! When a stock bike gets 37-38 MPG something is wrong at 27 MPG. Are you going to tell me that 27 MPG is an acceptable MPG for a slightly modded bike?

I am not trying to get 45 MPG on the interstate, just a reasonable MPG. Six gallon tank at 27 MPG give a 130 mile range, 38 MPG gives you a 190 mile range, both with a gallon to spare. My bladder and butt hold out much longer and I  don't want to stop if I don't have too, or worry about the next gas stop. I want to stop when I am ready to, not because the tank is empty. I ran 265 miles on a tank, rolling around Lake Superior at 55 MPH. I got excited when the 6 gallon tanks came out, 7 gallons would be better yet!

But this is not because of the dyno,  if your bike will live partly tuned getting 45 mpg it will live better fully tuned getting 45 MPG

[Die Hard]

My 124 gets 40mpg on the highway at a steady cruise. And it's not built for mpg.

Find a good dyno tuner.

I am running a 124 also and I averaged 38.4 MPG on a trip last fall. I was mostly on the interstate running between 75 and 95 MPH with occasional bursts up over 100 MPH. My bike was tuned on the dyno.

Since then, I added the extra wide air filter in my S&S Stealth setup and went with a Fuel Moto 2 into 1 pipe that has a little bigger diameter primary tubes combined with a larger diameter muffler that is longer. My old 2 into 1 was a Fatcat. So I self tuned it this spring using my TTS ignition and discovered it wanted more fuel in the mid and upper range. I've been wondering what the numbers would look like on a dyno but have not been on one.

[Ohio HD]

My 124 gets 40mpg on the highway at a steady cruise. And it's not built for mpg.

Find a good dyno tuner.

I am running a 124 also and I averaged 38.4 MPG on a trip last fall. I was mostly on the interstate running between 75 and 95 MPH with occasional burst up over 100 MPH. My bike was tuned on the dyno.

   A decent tuner is well worth the expense.

[kd]

I had to copy and paste this from the dyno thread for my 120 RGU. I couldn't find my notes and it was easier to copy and paste than dig through the piles of paper I save.    I kept close track over a number of varying conditions and these are the results. I have no doubt the tuner (not just the device) that did the tune was the reason for the great power and superb mileage. I was in the booth with him all day and we tuned 2 pipes for the bike.

BTW this is 3.16 gearing



"Just a bit of an update here. I have put on just over 5000 miles and all's GOOD. It is still a beast WOOHOO and I am constantly amazed at how fast it ramps up when I get on it.

I ran some mileage checks that I want to share. The caveat here is that no matter how I tried I always ended up pulling through the gears a few times per top up (like at least every time I pulled out on a highway  ), and on the highway hit 100 mph several times per trip (while passing etc.).  IMO I am getting unbelievable mileage. In fact, I believe way better than the stage 1 103 I took out. I find I use barely any throttle to do what ever needs doing. Resetting the cruise at 5 -10 mph under the setting plants you right in the seat. Engine tone barely changes on grades in cruise, 

I tried slab speed of 60, 70, and 80-85 mph averages (where I thought I could get away with it).

I have been getting a high of 56 - 58 MPG Canadian gallon / 46-49 MPG US gallon when I am trying to be compliant, to a low of 48 - 50 MPG Canadian gallon / 40 - 42 MPG US gallons when I am on the boogie.  This included marginal (10 - 15%) city driving on both ends of the trips. I really haven't logged any city driving mileage to check as of yet. If I do, I will share those numbers too."

[PoorUB]

The last tune I had was from a highly recommended tuner, he even teaches TTS and dyno tuning. He has been in the industry longer than many here have been alive! Last time he did a tune for me I stressed the importance of MPG at steady cruise and got crappy MPG. I am not sure where to go from there!

Who is highly recommended and tunes TTS in a 500 mile radius of Fargo ND??

[Ohio HD]

The guy I told you to see during the winter. BV Bob.

aka BVHOG

Whitehall , WI 54773

[98fxstc]

The guy I told you to see during the winter. BV Bob.

aka BVHOG

Whitehall , WI 54773

BVBob doesn't like TTS