M8 engine development question

[klammer76]

If this has been covered before I apologise.

How long was the M8 motor in development does anyone here know (year they started with it etc). I am aware that new platforms are prone to have some issues but the sumping with the M8 seems excessive? I know that arguments can be presented that X number of units are in service and only Y number have sumped but what are those % numbers? No one outside of Harley really knows. The twin Cam also sumped during testing I have read. They fixed the problem (to an extent) before releasing the motor. I have lived through the TC problems and am aware of their early short comings also. It just seems that the M8 was rushed? Was the M8 design a result of EPA pressure or was it that the TC was 17 years old? I had always heard that the TC was developed to cut down on noise in the cam chest area for EPA reasons? Harley claims that numerous miles were put on during pre release testing (hand built prototypes I assume) and no issues but I truly get the feeling that they really rushed the release of this platform. They also had to know about transmission oil migration? I realize that the true testers are the consumers and this motor has the ability to be one of the best if things get ironed out. I assume that if a case redesign is the true fix for sumping as some have suggested it would be a huge financial and time consuming hit for them to under take.

This is just my curiosity as to the story and thinking behind the development of the M8.

[Nastytls]

I seem to recall that new European emissions standards  were beyond what the T.C. was capable of so they needed this new design so they would be able to sell bikes there at all.

[PC_Hater]

I seem to recall that new European emissions standards  were beyond what the T.C. was capable of so they needed this new design so they would be able to sell bikes there at all.

I don't believe that. They still sell Sportsters here.
I would believe the M8 was caused by an old engine about to be out of copyright or trademark or whatever legislation.
I might even believe the M8 was caused by a genuine desire to build a nice motor that makes good power so that most people are happy without having to choose expensive parts to get the power they want.
It might even have been caused by the competition from Victory and then Indian.

(mind you the Sportster motor must be way out of whatever copyright or design rights that protect it from copying so what do I know?)

[BVHOG]

Doesn't matter how long it took, with today's technology it shouldn't be impossible to build a decent motor in short order.  Build a POS to start with and no matter how many years later you just have an older POS.  Small block chevy was built without all the computer assistance they have now and look how well it stood the test of time.

[PoorUB]

I don't understand with all the well engineered motorcycles out there that HD engineers can't come up with something better. The multi-piece crankshaft needs to go, replaced with a forged steel crank. The roller bearings need to go away to automotive style bearings. I don't have a big issue with the push rod valve train, it is simple and easy to manufacture, as long as the RPM is held down, but I would like to see OHV and liquid cooling. Oh, and some suspension!

[rigidthumper]

It was called a V-Rod, and it's sales were lackluster...

[kd]

It was called a V-Rod, and it's sales were lackluster...

Maybe in a different chassis the sales would have been better. The VRod had a limited following. The engine however was recognized for the premium performance and durability it had.  Things like compression and cam changes may have made it the touring savior.

[klammer76]

It was called a V-Rod, and it's sales were lackluster...

Maybe in a different chassis the sales would have been better. The VRod had a limited following. The engine however was recognized for the premium performance and durability it had.  Things like compression and cam changes may have made it the touring savior.

I agree, I think it would have done better and been better received in a more traditional frame. Who knows. A lot hated the FXR's also now they have cult status (I had one and loved it).

[klammer76]

Doesn't matter how long it took, with today's technology it shouldn't be impossible to build a decent motor in short order.  Build a POS to start with and no matter how many years later you just have an older POS.  Small block chevy was built without all the computer assistance they have now and look how well it stood the test of time.

I don't understand with all the well engineered motorcycles out there that HD engineers can't come up with something better. The multi-piece crankshaft needs to go, replaced with a forged steel crank. The roller bearings need to go away to automotive style bearings. I don't have a big issue with the push rod valve train, it is simple and easy to manufacture, as long as the RPM is held down, but I would like to see OHV and liquid cooling. Oh, and some suspension!

That's the thing, who are these engineers and where do they get them? I wonder if it's ineptness on their part or handcuffed by bean counters etc. Who comes up with some of the ideas? Automatic primary chain adjusters, the manual ones worked fine for years, Removing the inspection plate from the primary at least you could check the auto adjuster if one were still there. Why the new styly compensator that they had issues with for several years, was the older style that bad? Pressed together flywheels? Weaker transmission gears etc.

[Ohio HD]

It was called a V-Rod, and it's sales were lackluster...

    People want Harleys, real Harleys. Deviate too much from that and they loose there attraction. Yes, we actually like the way they sound, the way the torque hits, etc.


I said it a few days ago, those that want the Harley to be something else, well they didn't want a Harley from the start.

[sandrooney]

  

[RoadGlideRob]

I hope you all do realize that German engineering is always thought of as the best and bmw has more bikes brought back to the dealer for issues than H-D. Honda had issues over the years with the gold wing. 

I test road the new bmw bagger. It was impressive and the have some really cool tech. That said I just bought 19 roadglide and i'm Grinning ear to ear every time I ride and it's bone stock

All manufacturers have issues.  And like someone said already if you a H-D to be something else you don't Harley's.

Buy it, ride it, learn to work on it!

[PoorUB]

Yep, you guys are probably  correct. I like more performance and a better ride right out of the box. I am not fired up about spending $30K on a motorcycle then spending $3K more so it was some power and ride when I can spend $30K on a motorcycle that does  it  already.

[Nastytls]

I hope you all do realize that German engineering is always thought of as the best and bmw has more bikes brought back to the dealer for issues than H-D. Honda had issues over the years with the gold wing. 

I test road the new bmw bagger. It was impressive and the have some really cool tech. That said I just bought 19 roadglide and i'm Grinning ear to ear every time I ride and it's bone stock

All manufacturers have issues.  And like someone said already if you a H-D to be something else you don't Harley's.

Buy it, ride it, learn to work on it!

Would be nice if I COULD ride it.

I hope you have good luck with your 19', better luck that I and many others have with my 18'....

My 2017 BMW Boxer is dead reliable with no problems, my 09' Dyna and 18' Road Glide... Not so much. My 18' is parked in the garage until I have time and can get it back to the dealer for its regular 1K mile primary draining/trans refilling. I'm not supposed to ride it more than 1k miles without doing that with good reason, there is no oil detectable in my transmission right now. This is the only solution HD and their amazing team of "engineers" have offered so far.

Maybe I'm crazy, but I don't think I should have to "work" on my brand new 25K+ motorcycle, that's JMO.

[Hossamania]

Nasty, that would drive me absolutely nuts. I would have to talk to the owner every time I came in and let him know how very disappointed I was with the handling of the situation. I would also ask if he could arrange for them to come and pick it up and return it every 1000 miles for its service, for free of course. I would also ask every time if he will buy it back, 100% full refund.
I hope you are not paying for these service visits.
We have some news stations here that like to do consumer issue stories. I would be tempted to contact one of them just to see if they would be interested in looking into the story.

[Nastytls]

Nasty, that would drive me absolutely nuts. I would have to talk to the owner every time I came in and let him know how very disappointed I was with the handling of the situation. I would also ask if he could arrange for them to come and pick it up and return it every 1000 miles for its service, for free of course. I would also ask every time if he will buy it back, 100% full refund.
I hope you are not paying for these service visits.
We have some news stations here that like to do consumer issue stories. I would be tempted to contact one of them just to see if they would be interested in looking into the story.

Hoss,

I don't see this as a dealership issue, it's an HD issue. I truly like the owner of my dealership, he's an old school guy that has owned this small ( by todays standards ) hole in the wall dealership as his dream job since the 1970's. All the other dealers around here are big multi dealer conglomerates that I have no desire to do business with. He's promised to not report all of the mods I've done ( cams, pipe, filter, full exhaust & PV ) so that I keep my warranty. No other dealer around here is going to do that. I paid well under MSRP. and my parts were/are heavily discounted, so I really don't want to bust his chops or bring bad publicity to his dealership as his hands are tied in all of this. If Harley gave two s**ts about their product or their customers this would have been corrected long ago, probably during "development".

On top of that, you have all too many guys that say "just learn to work on it".... This mind boggling attitude enables HD to do what they do. I know damn well how to work on it, that's not the point, I shouldn't HAVE to work on it.

I will continue to bring the bike back every 1k miles ( for free ) until HD has found a resolution or until I decide to push the P.O.S over a cliff.

[Hossamania]

I understand you not wanting to bust the owner's chops.
I'm sure he is doing everything he can with HD to get it resolved for you. Still, I would have a hard time putting up with it.
Have you looked into it with your state's attorney general? They are consumer advocates for you also. I know you want to work through this with the dealership, but really, when does something else have to be done?
If Chevy cars did this in the same small percentage that the HDs are, you can bet it would become a very public issue.
Again, I'm not saying to bust your dealer, but the Motor Company itself.
Frustrating.

[motorhogman]

It was called a V-Rod, and it's sales were lackluster...

I rented a V Rod back in the early 2000's  maybe 01 , 02..Most impressive bike that said HD on the tank I ever rode.  Trouble is that configuration doesn't meet my riding style. I wished for a V Rod type power plant in a dresser for years after that ride.

[klammer76]

It was called a V-Rod, and it's sales were lackluster...

    People want Harleys, real Harleys. Deviate too much from that and they loose there attraction. Yes, we actually like the way they sound, the way the torque hits, etc.


I said it a few days ago, those that want the Harley to be something else, well they didn't want a Harley from the start.

[klammer76]

Smarty and No Cents had an interesting take on engine and transmission lack of venting in the sumping is fixed thread. Very interesting.

[BVHOG]

It was called a V-Rod, and it's sales were lackluster...

    People want Harleys, real Harleys. Deviate too much from that and they loose there attraction. Yes, we actually like the way they sound, the way the torque hits, etc.


I said it a few days ago, those that want the Harley to be something else, well they didn't want a Harley from the start.

Best post I have read in a long time

[IronButt70]

I wished for a V Rod type power plant in a dresser for years after that ride.

  IMHO HD made a HUGE mistake by not developing a V-Rod type engine option for baggers. If you've seen the engine for the upcoming Pan Am it couldn't have been that difficult.

[PoorUB]

Put a stroked Vrod in the bagger frame with 5-6 inches off suspension  travel and I am buying!

[hattitude]

Doesn't matter how long it took, with today's technology it shouldn't be impossible to build a decent motor in short order.  Build a POS to start with and no matter how many years later you just have an older POS.  Small block chevy was built without all the computer assistance they have now and look how well it stood the test of time.

I don't understand with all the well engineered motorcycles out there that HD engineers can't come up with something better. The multi-piece crankshaft needs to go, replaced with a forged steel crank. The roller bearings need to go away to automotive style bearings. I don't have a big issue with the push rod valve train, it is simple and easy to manufacture, as long as the RPM is held down, but I would like to see OHV and liquid cooling. Oh, and some suspension!

That's the thing, who are these engineers and where do they get them? I wonder if it's ineptness on their part or handcuffed by bean counters etc. Who comes up with some of the ideas? Automatic primary chain adjusters, the manual ones worked fine for years, Removing the inspection plate from the primary at least you could check the auto adjuster if one were still there. Why the new styly compensator that they had issues with for several years, was the older style that bad? Pressed together flywheels? Weaker transmission gears etc.

I have no insight into the inner workings of the MoCo.....

But I would be willing to bet there are some very frustrated engineers working at the MoCo...



I worked in a field that was small, and very technical.... Most of us knew and understood what was needed and what should happen to do the job properly. From about 1994 thru 2005 we were often offered up as an example of what to strive for, within our industry.

Then the upwardly mobile (promotion as a first priority) managers and operators joined our smooth running "machine". Directives were given that gave cost savings priority over proper function. The managers came up with the silly ideas, and their pilot fish instituted the changes with zeal...

They were all promoted up and out of our hair.... and we were left to try to pick up the pieces of what used to be a model in that industry. Sadly, at the time of my retirement in 2011, that cycle continued to repeat itself. We were never able to achieve our former proficiency.

I would suspect their is a similar struggle going on constantly, within the MoCo, between designers, engineers, bean counters, management, and the Board fo Directors...

Yep, I suspect the MoCo has some really good engineers that are as frustrated, as some of us, at the lack of making a proper fix.....

[IronButt70]

Yep, I suspect the MoCo has some really good engineers that are as frustrated, as some of us, at the lack of making a proper fix.....

My guess is the bean counters are the problem. Think about it. If you can cut corners and save $200 per bike and you sell 200k bikes that's $40 million to the bottom line. Only way to stop it would be for the MoCo to buy back all their stock and go private but we all know that ain't gonna happen.

[HogMike]

Doesn't matter how long it took, with today's technology it shouldn't be impossible to build a decent motor in short order.  Build a POS to start with and no matter how many years later you just have an older POS.  Small block chevy was built without all the computer assistance they have now and look how well it stood the test of time.

I don't understand with all the well engineered motorcycles out there that HD engineers can't come up with something better. The multi-piece crankshaft needs to go, replaced with a forged steel crank. The roller bearings need to go away to automotive style bearings. I don't have a big issue with the push rod valve train, it is simple and easy to manufacture, as long as the RPM is held down, but I would like to see OHV and liquid cooling. Oh, and some suspension!

That's the thing, who are these engineers and where do they get them? I wonder if it's ineptness on their part or handcuffed by bean counters etc. Who comes up with some of the ideas? Automatic primary chain adjusters, the manual ones worked fine for years, Removing the inspection plate from the primary at least you could check the auto adjuster if one were still there. Why the new styly compensator that they had issues with for several years, was the older style that bad? Pressed together flywheels? Weaker transmission gears etc.

I have no insight into the inner workings of the MoCo.....

But I would be willing to bet there are some very frustrated engineers working at the MoCo...



I worked in a field that was small, and very technical.... Most of us knew and understood what was needed and what should happen to do the job properly. From about 1994 thru 2005 we were often offered up as an example of what to strive for, within our industry.

Then the upwardly mobile (promotion as a first priority) managers and operators joined our smooth running "machine". Directives were given that gave cost savings priority over proper function. The managers came up with the silly ideas, and their pilot fish instituted the changes with zeal...

They were all promoted up and out of our hair.... and we were left to try to pick up the pieces of what used to be a model in that industry. Sadly, at the time of my retirement in 2011, that cycle continued to repeat itself. We were never able to achieve our former proficiency.

I would suspect their is a similar struggle going on constantly, within the MoCo, between designers, engineers, bean counters, management, and the Board fo Directors...

Yep, I suspect the MoCo has some really good engineers that are as frustrated, as some of us, at the lack of making a proper fix.....

Nothing new, I had a friend that was hired by HD mid 80's in the R&D department who got to try all sorts of engine designs and head designs that never made it past test stage.
He was frustrated that that was SOP, but glad they paid him to do what he loved to do.
We used some of his ideas at the local drag strip in MN for a few years. He was a pretty sharp cookie!