Different A/F and numbers from Different Dynos

[swampking]

Had a map built by a local tunner that has been doing them for years on a DJ 150 then and got 103 HP and 111 Torque He does not use a tunning link. Then last night I had it but on a DJ 250 and just a base line run done and it showed 84 HP and 101 torque. But the part that really puzzles me is that the A/F ratio on the 250 showed way rich at 100% as rich as 11 near the top. I know the 150 operator used std and the 250 used sae so there should be around 3% difference but it's the A/F that bothers me. according to the print out I got on the 150 the A/F looked fine.any ideas?

[Herko]

Yes, there can be variances from dyno to dyno with AFR readings. It's not so much as a 150 vs a 250 thing in AFR like it can be with power readings between the two.

AFR differences can vary with:
-The condition and health of the sensor(s) being used.
-The software/hardware/connections being used to recv a signal from a sensor to in turn show AFR.
-The method and cleanliness used to take the AFR sample.
-Any combination of the above.

The question becomes..."Would the real AFR please stand up?"
There's ways to determine this.
But, the dyno operators would need to invest a little time and money as well as take a competent position when executing the verification process.

[Doc 1]

Yes, there can be variances from dyno to dyno with AFR readings. It's not so much as a 150 vs a 250 thing in AFR like it can be with power readings between the two.

AFR differences can vary with:
-The condition and health of the sensor(s) being used.
-The software/hardware/connections being used to recv a signal from a sensor to in turn show AFR.
-The method and cleanliness used to take the AFR sample.
-Any combination of the above.

The question becomes..."Would the real AFR please stand up?"
There's ways to determine this.
But, the dyno operators would need to invest a little time and money as well as take a competent position when executing the verification process.

Herko is correct and I will add that the 150 dyno came with an poor excuse for a pump to get the sample to the 02 sensor it was like an over sized fish tank pump....the updated version was a double pumper that came out about 7 years ago and now they have eliminated the pump all together and use air pressure to create a vacume to draw the sample to the 02 sensor.
Ask each of the dyno owners when is the last time he changed the 02 sensor....this will give you a good idea of the shape of the equipment used.
One more thing to consider is the PE table in the ECM adding more fuel in the 100% throttle position as the bike spooled up on the 250....if it showed less power it took more time to get to red line which allows the PE table to add fuel.
What is your mileage....that should tell you if it is overly rich or lean also.
Doc

[whittlebeast]

Remember that the stock 02s are dead on accurate when the bike is warmed up and passing through 14.7 AFR.  Learn to do data logging and get a good data log viewer and you will start to see the limits of the stack ECU.  You will need to do about 15 logs of about 45 min each before you will start picking up on the patterns.  You will be convinced there is some serious fuzzy logic going on under the covers.

AW

[Herko]

"...the stock 02s are dead on accurate when the bike is warmed up and passing through 14.7 AFR."
Then:
"...and you will start to see the limits of the stack ECU."
Which witch is which here?

You saying the Delphi (OE Harley) ECU has flaws to the point of not properly utilizing the benefit of the "accurate" OE sensors?
If so, what would be a good solution?

[FLTRI]

Remember that the stock 02s are dead on accurate when the bike is warmed up and passing through 14.7 AFR.  Learn to do data logging and get a good data log viewer and you will start to see the limits of the stack ECU.  You will need to do about 15 logs of about 45 min each before you will start picking up on the patterns.  You will be convinced there is some serious fuzzy logic going on under the covers.

AW

Please explain what you've discovered as related to your comment fuzzy logic. Since I do not normally do 10+ hrs of data logging I have not noticed what you refer to.
Always eager to learn,
Bob

[whittlebeast]

The ability of the o2 to detect 14.7 and the ECU's ability to take effective advantage of the ability are two very different things.

A little basic EFI math...

If the commanded pulse width from the ECU is 4.75 ms and the injector opening time is .75 ms then the effective injector spray time is 4 ms

If the commanded pulse width from the ECU is 4.30 ms, then the effective injector spray time is 3.55 ms

4ms / 3.55ms = 12% change delivered fuel.   If the starting AFR was 14.7 and the commanded pulse width is changing 12% the resulting AFR is 14.7 * (4 / 3.55) = 16.56

16.56 - 14.7 = a swing of 1.8 AFR points.

Data log any Sporty at 3000 RPM on the highway and report back what you see.  This is just on example of the sort of thing you are up against.

AW

[whittlebeast]

Next experiment..

Fully tune any Harley o2 bike with the bias set to 720 or so throughout and set the AFR in the entire range from 20 kpa to 80 kpa to 14.6.  Do 4 or 5 V Tunes per the instructions.  The o2 should be running real close to about 700 average but swinging down thru 500 mv lots.  This is just as designed.  Now that you the entire VE table set to perfection, (at least where the V Tune got to) set all of the cells that were set to 14.6 for the V Tune session to 14.5

In theory the bike should still average real close to 14.1 on the wide bands.  Now turn on the data loggers set to generic 02 and report back what you see from the o2s.  Remember that anywhere the o2s are reporting 200 ms or so for any long period of time the motor is running leaner than 14.7 and more like 15.4 or even leaner.

Run the bike on the loggers for an hour of so and report back what you see from the o2s.

Remember that a good narrow band has far faster response time and is extremely accurate as you pass thru 14.7 compared to almost all of the wide bands that you will ever find in a shop.

AW

[whittlebeast]

Experiment three...

Find the richer of the two VE tables and copy that table to the leaner VE table.  Now set all of the AFR targets to 14.0 so that the o2 integrators don't get involved.  You should get the same pulse width front and rear, correct?  See what you get on the data logs.  I wonder if the MAP that the front cylinder is using is different than the MAP the rear cylinder is using???  Now do a V Tune log and check out the MAP voltage plot???  What's up with that?

AW

[whittlebeast]

Example of things that come up...

Look at this trace.  The bike is idling in closed loop with an o2 bias of 720.  All looks textbook.

http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/IdleTextbook.jpg

but a few minutes later the same bike on the same ride does this and adds 5% more fuel to one of the cylinders.

http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/IdleUnstable.jpg 

If you don't do data logging you will never catch this sort of thing.  I also see this happening when I ride the same loop say three times in a row on the same ride and the ECU will take one of the cylinders dead lean on just one of the passes.  Also you will never see this sort of thing on one pass on a dyno.

When the bike is running open loop, you will see this effect run that cylinder supper lean all of a sudden.

Remember that you will never duplicate on road air flow and the resulting changes to intake air temp and engine cooling on a dyno.

Have fun tuning

AW

[FLTRI]

AW,
Thanks for sharing with us your findings based on some very tedious testing.
What bike(s) was this testing done on?

I'd like to get a bit more familiar with the test subjects you have found to run dead lean @ different times. Fortunately I have not had complaints from customers who say their bike seems to run 1 way for a while then change and miss (dead lean) then not, etc.

Sure hope your test subjects are the exceptions rather than the rule 'cause if your findings represent the norm, there are thousands of bikes that, while they may be tuned precisely on a dyno, run like crap intermittently on the street.
If so, I guess I've been lucky my customers haven't noticed a dead cylinder while riding.
Thanks again for sharing,
Bob

[FLTRI]

Example of things that come up...
...The bike is idling in closed loop with an o2 bias of 720.

The above statement indicates you have compared idling EFI behavior, which can be influenced by exhaust reversion cooling the sensor and producing reactions not programmed or expected.

When the bike is running open loop, you will see this effect run that cylinder supper lean all of a sudden.

So you are saying the AFR changes all by itself @ idle even in open loop (no AFR changes from O2 sensors)? This would seem to indicate the warm-up enrichment, which is based on engine temp, is affecting the idle AFR as programmed.

Remember that you will never duplicate on road air flow and the resulting changes to intake air temp and engine cooling on a dyno.

Not necessarily true. As a matter of fact I see complete running temperature swings typically during tuning sessions, then go back to verify AFR by letting the engine cool and watch the AFRs as temperatures go through accepted operating ranges. I also vary intake temp by allowing the engine to ingest ambient (room) air, climate controlled (cooled) air, with and without forced (approx 50mph) air to make sure the temperature and wind speed changes have little or no affect on running AFR readings.

One last point:
Using the AFR table to adjust expected tailpipe AFRs is a calculated result rather than a manually tuned results. For this reason I do not use the AFR table to alter expected tailpipe AFR. I use VE tables to adjust to the resultant tailpipe AFR. This way I know what comes out the tailpipe rather than assume the calculations from the software are always exact. I believe there are variables in the math that can and do deliver a bit different AFR result than planned.
Plus there are a lot of variables designed into he calibrations, some we have access to, and others we do not, that can and do have an effect over the VE/AFR tables.

Have fun tuning

That I will. As I said, I'm sure glad the engine idle findings you have presented are such that my customers either don't experience it or simply don't notice it.
As always, JMHO, Bob
PS - "Remember that a good narrow band has far faster response time and is extremely accurate as you pass thru 14.7 compared to almost all of the wide bands that you will ever find in a shop."
I do not feel the respose time differential between the narrow band and wide band is important considering the slow acceleration time and small operating rpm range these engines run at.
And finally, the fact the narrow band sensor is more accurate than an inexpensive wide band sensor @ 14.7, is moot to me as I do not tune to 14.7. As a matter of fact, I tune AFRs from 13.2-14.2, so narrow band sensors are virtually useless for my tuning applications. I do realize using V-tune to adjust AFRs uses the OEM narrow band sensors and the only way this procedure works is to tune to 14.6-7 for every RPM/TP, then change the AFR table to hopefully get to the exact tailpipe AFR desired. This procedure assumes the VE tables are precisely adjusted (tuned) which maybe not be a correct assumption for all applications, especially depending on exhaust system and its reversionary characteristics that affect O2 readings.

[Steve Cole]

The ability of the o2 to detect 14.7 and the ECU's ability to take effective advantage of the ability are two very different things.

A little basic EFI math...

If the commanded pulse width from the ECU is 4.75 ms and the injector opening time is .75 ms then the effective injector spray time is 4 ms

If the commanded pulse width from the ECU is 4.30 ms, then the effective injector spray time is 3.55 ms

4ms / 3.55ms = 12% change delivered fuel.   If the starting AFR was 14.7 and the commanded pulse width is changing 12% the resulting AFR is 14.7 * (4 / 3.55) = 16.56

16.56 - 14.7 = a swing of 1.8 AFR points.

Data log any Sporty at 3000 RPM on the highway and report back what you see.  This is just on example of the sort of thing you are up against.

AW

While you want to present cases that are in your head and on the paper your looking at you cannot use basic math when you leave out as many parts of the math as you do, maybe it's time to come play in the real world

#1 you have left out the fact that the ECM knows the opening time and adjust for it
#2 you have left out the injector closeing time as well
#3 Since the stock ECM knows about these things your arguments are invalid

Did you forget about the test that was preformed by rider57 where he checked his bike in a EPA lab and found on the lab equipment that Vtune hit the numbers as tested and that your method that you tuned missed the mark and caused the bike to have a bad vibration! You must spend your days and nights dreaming things up that never come into play, most people just want a good running bike that they can go enjoy and that's just what they get by Vtuning it.

[whittlebeast]

FLTRI

I have seen those sort of dropouts in all sorts of conditions, both closed loop and open loop.  The screen shots that I gave were during idle as it happened to be a controlled example.  In the first example the IAT was at 133 degrees and the engine temp was at 329.  In the second example the IAT was 95 and the EGT was 343 degrees.

The motor was about 12 min into the ride on a hot start so the motor was well out of cold start mode.  The desired idle had settled down to 1000 RPM at 135 sec or about 10 min before.

Most of these dropouts are not severe enough to be extremely noticeably from the seat.  When this is all tuned out though the bike takes on an entirely new personality.

I have seen most of this on several big twins.  The 3000 RPM o2 induced throbbing that is so noticeable on the Sportys is not nearly as bad on the big twin codes.

As a side note, I have seen IATs on the baggers in the 135 and greater range on cold days when running the typical Harley style ACs and people wonder why they are getting detonation in the summer.

As always, Have fun tuning

AW

[FLTRI]

AW,
Sure glad you are unique in your findings. While I have nowhere near the logging hours you have, after some 12 years and 3000+ tunes, the idiosyncrasies you profess to be the norm are undetectable to riders.
I would think excessively lean running as you point out with your test bikes and tunes would be readily identifiable to even the numbest of riders.
I must admit I have far fewer Sportster tunes than Big Twins so if you are referring mainly to a Sportster's running issues you have experience with, I have had no Sportster comebacks for ill-running characteristics.
I guess what you are referring to is simply not felt and observed by those who ride the bikes.
Recalibrating the EFI on a Harley is great fun for me as each one is individual in its needs and requirements making it very challenging and interesting to me as a tuner,
Bob

[whittlebeast]

I don't think that I am anywhere near the only one with these issues.  I am one of the few that is willing to look at the data coming from the bike.

I fixed a link above that apparently nobody had even noticed that both links were the same image. (fixed now)

If the data stream is broke in the code, fix the code.  If the data stream is correct, be willing to look at the data.  I would not trust a company that the motto is "good enough for the customers I have... just don't teach them to look at the data and they will never know the difference"  We did that with the banks (investors, congress...) and look how that worked out.

AW

[nc-renegade]

When the bike is running open loop, you will see this effect run that cylinder supper lean all of a sudden.

Remember that you will never duplicate on road air flow and the resulting changes to intake air temp and engine cooling on a dyno.

Have fun tuning

AW

I would of thought those environmental conditions would be applicable to both cylinders though.....should see it happening on both.

[Steve Cole]

WB is just looking to tell everyone that the code doesn't work, the only issue is he himself does not know how the code works. If he did then just maybe he could figure out what is going on. The truth is that the code works just fine and that his interpretation of the data is flawed since he doesn't understand how it works. It does not do any good to point it out as he just doesn't listen.

[FLTRI]

I would not trust a company that the motto is "good enough for the customers I have... just don't teach them to look at the data and they will never know the difference".

Yet, would you spend your money and trust your dear bike to a company that the motto is: "Tell the customer his bike doesn't have an EFI system that works correctly consequently that's why, after we tune it, it will not run very good."
I'll bet you're glad you don't tune for a living......or do you?

Glad our motto is: "100% customer satisfaction no matter how long or what it takes".

Bob

[whittlebeast]

So did you try the experiments from the posts above?

AW

[FLTRI]

So did you try the experiments from the posts above?

AW

Not sure I need to log hours of data to determine whether the bike runs good or not. Also have years and many miles of smiles from those customers who have done vurtually all the advertising for us as we do not.
I suspect you are barking loud about issues you have identified with bikes you or someone you know has tuned and doesn't run very well. Am I correct?
Bob
PS - The unstable idle graph of O2 integers you offer may simply indicate an exhaust system that allows for reversion to cool the sensors and affective skew the data to the ECM. I see nothin that indicates defective operation. No instant drop-outs or spikes from the integers but gradual change from whatever is in play that affects the result.
Just for imformational value, what is the subject test bike and the exhaust system used in this experiment?
Most riders do not spend a lot of time sitting in one place, but do spend a lot of time riding down the road, which would be some really valuable data if you have some that illustrate your points.

[whittlebeast]

Nope,  They run great now that we have all the dropouts filled in.

AW

[whittlebeast]

That is a totally stock 2007 Sporty with the exception of a Harley Heavy Breather installed to control intake air temp swings caused by stock aero issues that are unbelievable on the Baggers.

AW

[Herko]

"So did you try the experiments from the posts above?"

Golly gee Miss Landers, when are these homework assignments due?

[FLTRI]

Nope,  They run great now that we have all the dropouts filled in.

AW

AW,
So the test bike was a Sporty with stock exhaust and a free breathing A/C, right? You feel the Heavy Breather corrects intake problems you've also identified with the production and/or std SE air cleaner/filter?

What intake air temp swings are unbelievable with baggers? I will see anywhere from 75deg to 130 degs given time and tuning circumstances, but have verified those temps to be accurate by using a infrared temps gun shot into the intake. While i realize that method is not perfect it does show temps very close to ECM reported temps.

Maybe I have been reading your posts incorrectly. Are you saying once you realized/learned how to tune these bikes you have been successful in getting them to run right or are you saying because of your knowledge and expertise you have discovered special tuning techniques to override or get around design and production errors?
Bob

[whittlebeast]

I am seeing intake air temp 90 degrees over the ambient art temps on the baggers when they have the fairings.  The sporty was seeing temps 60 degrees over with the stock AC.  That is a perfect storm for detonation issues on hot days.

Yes I have developed tuning methods to work with the SERT to find and tune around the issues.

AW

[nc-renegade]

I got an Bob, just switch to the T-max and never have these problems.  Use a real ECM   (could not help it..sorry man)

I have monitored both the T-Max and the Delphi ECU for many hours and have not seen what he is reporting.  I also know (and feel) when the bike runs good and when it does not.  I have not seen these drop-outs on either SERT tuned ECU or the T-Max while idling and certainly not running down the road.  I've NOT heard complaints from owners of bikes that have had a good tuner work their magic, I know I would if the ECM behaved that badly.

I also suspect the Vtune and Mytune programs do very well too setting up the VE tables and these mentioned problems would show up during the data runs.  (BTW Steve, being the impatient person I am, I purchased the TTS yesterday so I can get started on my tune...hope the 05 conversion to 07 works soon).

[Steve Cole]

Your not going to tune around hot air entering the motor and that certainly is not a code issue. Since WB only has the SERT, SESPT, TL or TTS to adjust with he isn't tuning anything that any other tuner cannot do. Dealing with the hot air can only be changed by changing parts not changing tuning and people have been changing parts for years. So what it boils down to is picking the proper parts to do what you want the bike to do then tuning it in. As I recall people have been do just that for years.

[FLTRI]

AW,
Still haven't answered the question:
"So the test bike was a Sporty with stock exhaust and a free breathing A/C, right?

You feel the Heavy Breather corrects intake problems you've also identified with the production and/or std SE air cleaner/filter?"
Inquiring minds need to know,
Bob

[whittlebeast]

FLTRI

Yes,  I have found the heavy breather to deliver a far more constant and cooler IAT.

AW

[FLTRI]

AW,
Sorry for not effectively communicating my question specifically about the exhaust.
What exhaust system was on the Sporty during the experiments you conducted and noticed the problems with the Delphi system?

I am seeing intake air temp 90 degrees over the ambient art temps on the baggers when they have the fairings.  The sporty was seeing temps 60 degrees over with the stock AC.  That is a perfect storm for detonation issues on hot days.

Are you saying the IAT is so high in mild ambients that when the ambient temp goes above say 90 the IAT will still be somewhere over 150 degs? Certainly not impossible albeit rare. Have you found the IAT starts coming down as airspeed goes up through the intake tract especially when the bike starts travelling down the road, right?

Yes I have developed tuning methods to work with the SERT to find and tune around the issues.

This site is a great site because people are willing to share their experience(s) and knowledge. You have gone through a lot of data recording and analyzation. Believe me, I can appreciate the effort. May as well share your solutions as well as your findings. I, and a plethora of others are always looking to learn from others and share experiences with those who are interested.
Thanks AW,
Bob

[whittlebeast]

The exhaust has been been totally stock for over a year.  For a short period of time (like 3 or 4 logs I did have a 2-1 Rinehart when I was testing the ability of the bike to "learn") but for now that has been shelved as an expensive experiment.

The stock AC was getting wild swings in IAT and was very dependent on vehicle speed.  The results of that are difficult to quantify as identical, back to back testing is difficult to produce.  The results were so apparent to me, that I moved on to the next problem.

You would not believe some of the things that several of us have uncovered in testing in the last two years but I have found most of my posts have been met with personal attacks by a few people.  All I am trying to do is get people to look at their data from their bikes and see what I am looking at.  I have helped people tune 10 or 12 bikes and after time you start seeing patterns in the data.  I now start with V-Tune to get into the ballpark and then move on to statistical analysis and data logging to locate the dropouts and tune them out.  My usable powerband has about doubled compared to the stock tune.

AW

[FLTRI]

AW,
Can you go into a bit more detail to help us understand specifically what you are talking about with this statement?:
"then move on to statistical analysis and data logging to locate the dropouts and tune them out"
First, can you describe and illustrate exactly what you refer to as a dropout?
You basically indicate the current tuning methods/software (SERT, SEST, TTS, etc) are not good enough to correctly tune an engine and you are dissecting/analyzing data much more than most, but when you make such a generic statement to describe your solution(s), it really isn't much more than rhetoric to someone who doesn't understand what you are specifically referring to.
When you state you tune out the dropouts, exactly what do you change to do so? Is this a VE value change? Timing change? AFR table change?, etc.
Thanks for your effort,
Bob

[whittlebeast]

I would rather show this from data generated from a "V-Tuned" that a pro did so that I don't get accused of showing a poorly tuned bike.  All I need is a generic 02 data file from a bike on an hour long ride.  I do not even need to know what bike or whos bike it is. I would also love to see a log from a pro tuner.

AW

[FLTRI]

I would rather show this from data generated from a "V-Tuned" that a pro did so that I don't get accused of showing a poorly tuned bike.  All I need is a generic 02 data file from a bike on an hour long ride.  I do not even need to know what bike or whos bike it is. I would also love to see a log from a pro tuner.

AW

I readily see the data you are referring to however it is the actual changes you use to "cure" the dropouts or get around them that I am curious about.
PS - A v-tuned bike is not a professionally tuned bike. It is done by riders without tuning equipment to get the VE colors right. Once that has been accomplished the actual tune will be virtually spot on other than WOT and maybe a couple places where the rider couldn't get the v-tune in the area needed to tune, usually high rpm/large TP openings.

And again:
Can you go into a bit more detail to help us understand specifically what you are talking about with this statement?:
"then move on to statistical analysis and data logging to locate the dropouts and tune them out"First, can you describe and illustrate exactly what you refer to as a dropout?
You basically indicate the current tuning methods/software (SERT, SEST, TTS, etc) are not good enough to correctly tune an engine and you are dissecting/analyzing data much more than most, but when you make such a generic statement to describe your solution(s), it really isn't much more than rhetoric to someone who doesn't understand what you are specifically referring to.
When you state you tune out the dropouts, exactly what do you change to do so? Is this a VE value change? Timing change? AFR table change?, etc.
Thanks,
Bob
PSS- Do you tune bikes as a business or are you doing this for a hobby?

[whittlebeast]

I happen to use a 14 megabyte spreadsheet that I developed to help me locate these issues.  At this point I do not tune for a living or even mad money.  It is just an addition to tune my wifes bike to near perfection.

I enjoy learning and disecting EFI systems.  If my Chrysler Magnum or my Honda ST1300 had drivability issues, I would be disecting those.  You would be amazed of the tallent of the people that have contacted me in the last year.  Most have been forced underground by forums and people attacking them.  The Harley community is the biggest looser when that happens.

The short simple answer is that I use my software to locate the issues.  I use free third party graphing software to verify these issues and add a couple percent at a time to the only cells in question, and retest.  But I get to ride when I test so what's the down side.  The results are amazing and the detonation is gone.  Stock it was a mess.

did you ever wonder where in the maps you spend your time

see http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/RPMvsMAP.jpg

and http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/RPMvsTPS.jpg

Have fun tuning

AW

[Steve Cole]

WB

So you are using the data as collected by the SERT, SESPT or Mastertune. Then you turn around and claim there are code issues. So if there was truely code issues how do you know the data collected was correct to begin with? You cannot have it both ways! The data you posted a link to is nothing more than a simple scatter graph which can be done in Excel by anyone and all it shows is the data collected by one of the aforementioned programs which you claim to have code issues. Todate on any forum I have never once seen you post an answer to any question that has been asked of you about these supposed problems. You skate around answering them at all cost.

Fltri has asked several times and still gotten no answer to his questions, so how about answering them with straight forward answers.

First, can you describe and illustrate exactly what you refer to as a dropout?

When you state you tune out the dropouts, exactly what do you change to do so?

Is this a VE value change?

Timing change?

AFR table change?

You also stated you only tuning to get your wife bike running correctly "At this point I do not tune for a living or even mad money."

http://www.vtwinefi.com/ is your website that you advertise yourself as a tuner for hire!

[FLTRI]

AW,
"did you ever wonder where in the maps you spend your time"Sure did. About 12 years ago we did some data collection on the MM bikes then later on the Delphi bikes.
This is why I tell customers that WOT is the easiest part of tuning and if the tuner can't get it right (straight line AFR) @ WOT, then there is a good possibility the rest of the AFRs are not adjust for best performance.

As I explained, I have quite a bit of data collection experience and have analyzed that data many times.
I just have not found the need to record hours of running to find areas where specific attention is needed to maximize performance.

While I can see some of your points that the system is not perfect I have never found any system to be perfect, but have found that after years of working with these systems they are not as hard to figure out as one may think. A little common sense goes a long way to assure the bike runs good for the customer.

Also you PM'd me and mentioned a minor (2-3%) then retest. Do you find such a little bit more fuel makes that much difference in the way the bike runs? Or are you saying you change 2-3% at a time but it usually takes quite a bit of fuel delivery change to get the bike to respond favorably? If so about how much tuning change (%) does it take for the bike to run properly. Just trying to get my arms around the amount of tuning change you find necessary to get the bike to run best.

And are you also saying unless you record a long time and then analyze that recorded data, the bike simply won't run properly by using proper tuning procedures as taught by experienced tuners?

In other words, in your opinion, do tuners need to charge by the hour for their time (can you offer a ballpark timeframe?) to identify and resolve running issues using unconventional (other than SERT-type) software and techniques you have found as the solution to a tuning end.
Bob

[Steve Cole]

We finally had the chance to use the lab to test these 2 maps.
The lab test was about the only thing I could do to get to the issues.
Using the ETV / EPS system we found that the map provides by whittlebeast produced 4 hp less than the VTuned map.
Looking for the cause, we found the the rear cyl. was going into a pseudo heat mode. Why?
The data showed that the pulse width was at zero and indeed it was. The ETV /EPS system showed that the ecu "skipped" a cycle.
This was not a heat protection cycle, it just skipped.
When using the ETV / EPS for testing, any heat protection cycle is logged as such.
Comparing the VE against measured VE there were differences in some areas as much as 3 to 5 %.
Spark also showed differences of 1 to 3.5 degrees.

Testing with the VTuned map showed the 4hp had been gained back.
There were no dropouts in the rear injector and no false heat mode protection / skip cycles.
VE's were correct against measured VE's and spark for both cyl's.
Any ideas?

Thanks for the data as you have now backed up what we do with Vtune and shown that the lab equipment agrees with Vtune. This should put this to rest once and for all, I hope.

[whittlebeast]

So Steve.  What combination of settings that you can get to with a standard release TTS software could generate a dead miss and an intermittent 0ms pulse width?  Can you recreate this?  The only time I would normally expect this sort of thing is when the code looses sync or a stack overflow causing some sort of internal rest.

Please do share

AW

[Steve Cole]

WB

Sorry, but we did not create any such problems, you did. Look at the results from Rider57, its what whatever you've done with you special tuning that has caused the issues. With the standard Mastertune/Vtune product, following the instructions he tuned it up just fine, made more Hp and it ran properly. These results were proven by Rider57 testing on the certified lab equipment. What ever you are doing just isn't getting it done for whatever reason. Maybe it has something to do with the following statement by you.

"I happen to use a 14 megabyte spreadsheet that I developed to help me locate these issues.  At this point I do not tune for a living or even mad money.  It is just an addition to tune my wifes bike to near perfection."

I would suggest you quit trying to screw around with something that works perfectly that you do not understand and just let it do its job!

[whittlebeast]

So what combination of VE and AFR can yeald a random 0 pulse width a 2500 RPM when engine temps are normal.  Did I miss your explanation?

AW

[cts1950]

I have used the TTS Vtune. And I found it will get you close to a good tune. What I think AW is trying is to fine tune what vtune misses. I have tried Whittles program and have ironed out some rough spots that were missed. I can see it in ride ability a power band with out peaks and flat spots and more noticeably in the sound of my exhaust. For what ever reason my front cylinder seems to have been louder than the rear and the data logging has consistently shown a longer pulse width for that cylinder. After fine tuning the pulse width is almost a direct overlay and the exhaust note is almost identical for front and rear cylinders. I have seen a reduction in overall engine vibration especially at idle.

[Steve Cole]

So what combination of VE and AFR can yeald a random 0 pulse width a 2500 RPM when engine temps are normal.  Did I miss your explanation?

AW

I guess you still just will not leave things alone. Let me make it perfectly clear so you will understand. Quit screwing around with things you do not understand. You and your underground buddies are messing with things you do not know or understand. I have told you this several times on several different forums. What ever your screwing with has caused problems and this is not the first time it's happened. I do not know what you did to Rider57's calibration nor do I want to but you screwed it up plain and simple, what you did caused the issues. Back to back test on the certified lab equipment proved it! It also showed Vtune did just what we said it would.

[cts1950]

I fail to understand why using a program that uses a datamaster log of 10000 frames and averaging weather each cell recorded was rich or lean and then using master tune to manually make minor adjustments to the ve tables where the cells that were low or high is no different than manually smoothing the ve cells that Doc has called for, how will this mess up a calibration?

[Steve Cole]

When you average in bad data with good data what do you think the output is going to be?? All DataMaster does is record what the ECM is sending out plain and simple. It makes no decisions as to right or wrong, good or bad. That needs to be handled and I've tried to tell everyone over and over again it needs to be done. Just because there is data there doesn't mean it's good data or the right data, you cannot use it all and you have to know and understand the system and how it works to make those decisions from. Why do you think we removed some of the data items from what we first put out..... it was data from the ECM but it was BAD data most of the time. It was not needed for anything and it caused more trouble than it was worth, so we removed it. Well Whittlebeast and friends blew up and said it needed to be there, wrong again. Whittlebeast and friends will not listen, how many times on how many forums must I say the same thing. I am sorry if people think I'm hard on him but it gets old after doing the same old thing time after time. This is not the first time he has had these same results but now it's been confirmed by someone independent of what I've said, maybe this time he will listen. How can it be Vtune used the data, made a tune and the certified lab verified it with multi million dollar equipment then Whittlebeast and friends say it's wrong. Believe who you want as I'm done with trying.

[whittlebeast]

And all along I thought we were talking about a random dropouts of injection pulses generated by some combination of settings of VE and AFR (and who knows what other setting) you can get to in standard TTS software.  This was verified with a multi million dollar dyno.

Who was talking about fuel trims?

AW

[sportygordy]

WB

Sorry, but we did not create any such problems, you did. Look at the results from Rider57, its what whatever you've done with you special tuning that has caused the issues. With the standard Mastertune/Vtune product, following the instructions he tuned it up just fine, made more Hp and it ran properly. These results were proven by Rider57 testing on the certified lab equipment. What ever you are doing just isn't getting it done for whatever reason. Maybe it has something to do with the following statement by you.

"I happen to use a 14 megabyte spreadsheet that I developed to help me locate these issues.  At this point I do not tune for a living or even mad money.  It is just an addition to tune my wifes bike to near perfection."

I would suggest you quit trying to screw around with something that works perfectly that you do not understand and just let it do its job!

Steve,

Can you share with us who Rider57 is? and what is their qualifications in tuning Harley Davidson motorcycles. Are they, them, him or her a tuning shop, a lab, tuning hobbyist or one of your buddies?

thanks Steve,

best regards always, 

sportygordy

[whittlebeast]

Rider57 was an EPA dyno operator that used to certify preproduction engine combination's for the EPA test labs.  He has now moved up to management within the EPA and is on the road most of the time now.  He still has plenty of EPA engineering connections.  It was one of his engineers that found the pulse dropouts when searching for the 4 hp difference and the apparently related vibration of the windscreen.

[nc-renegade]

Rider57 was an EPA dydo operator that used to certify preproduction engine combinations for the EPA test labs.  He has now moved up to management within the EPA and is on the road most of the time now.  He still has plenty of EPA engineering connections.  It was one of his engineers that found the pulse dropouts when searching for the 4 hp difference and the apparently related vibration of the windscreen.

Did not Rider57 report your tuning method was faulty and the VTune performed as expected?  The drop-outs stopped after tuning the bike using VTune?

[FSG]

....  a 14 megabyte spreadsheet that I developed to help me locate these issues

That's placing a little more faith in Microsoft than I have.

[whittlebeast]

Did not Rider57 report your tuning method was faulty and the VTune performed as expected?  The drop-outs stopped after tuning the bike using VTune?

Rider57 tends to only report what he found.  What he found was with a tune that I sent him, the bike developed a strange vibration that showed up as a windshield shake.  When he installed a tune that was developed with V-Tune the vibration disappeared and the HP picked up.  My tune was reinstalled and the engineers used EPA specialized software to figure out what was generating the vibration.  What they found was the ECU was dropping random pulses that indicated that some combination in that tune was triggering some sort of reset or resync  in the code and as a result, it showed up as lower HP.  We are trying to get to the source of the dropped injector pulses.  If I was hitting it, who else is and how common is the issue?  There was nothing that I know of that could do this sort of thing as all changes were made and installed with the TTS 130 software starting with a late version (002) map.

I wonder if this is possible to reproduce with 4.77 software or with the Harley Super Tuner (or whatever it is named now)?

AW

[FLTRI]

Rider57 tends to only report what he found.  What he found was with a tune that I sent him, the bike developed a strange vibration that showed up as a windshield shake.  When he installed a tune that was developed with V-Tune the vibration disappeared and the HP picked up. 

.....If I was hitting it, who else is and how common is the issue?

If it isn't noticed or show up when tuned with V-tune software (rider57's finding) or a proper dyno tune, which includes 10-30 runs, I'm not convinced the policies and procedures you have warranted (hours of data logging and analysis) are necessary.

I wonder if this is possible to reproduce with 4.77 software or with the Harley Super Tuner (or whatever it is named now)?

Sounds like your next challenge? Please let us know what you find.

Bob

[Steve Cole]

While it's funny that your trying to twist the problem around again I guess it should be expected by now. Let's look back at what was really said and then how you try to twist it around so as to remove fault from whatever it is your screwing with.

Rider57

"Looking for the cause, we found the the rear cyl. was going into a pseudo heat mode. Why?
The data showed that the pulse width was at zero and indeed it was. The ETV /EPS system showed that the ecu "skipped" a cycle.
This was not a heat protection cycle, it just skipped.
When using the ETV / EPS for testing, any heat protection cycle is logged as such.
Comparing the VE against measured VE there were differences in some areas as much as 3 to 5 %.
Spark also showed differences of 1 to 3.5 degrees."

Whittlebeast

"What they found was the ECU was dropping random pulses that indicated that some combination in that tune was triggering some sort of reset or resync  in the code and as a result, it showed up as lower HP."

That is not what he said at all, but like always you twist it to fit what you want. Nowhere did he state a reset or resync in the code or that it was dropping random pulses. He merely stated it skipped a cycle and you made up the rest to fit your agenda. "A" refers to one cylce of the rear cylinder! What he did report was that with your tune the timing was off 1 to 3.5 degrees and the VE was off 3 to 5%. That's where the Hp went out the window on your tune.

Why is it when when he used the TTS software it works fine and he get the proper values both reported and measured, but when you screw with things he doesn't.. My advice is quit screwing with things!

[Ram]

I have been standing by reading this thread. Only to observe one thing. 

As I see it a lot of time and effort from the best of the heavy hitters in the world of tuning have chimed in over WB issues.

Me being new to all of this but seeking all the time wisdom and accurate information on all aspects of TTS MasterTuner operation.

WB, I can only hope that I can get 1 % of all the attention that you have garnered lately on multiple threads and forums that I've seen you on.  When I begin a requesting info for my tuning endeavors!

I'm patiently awaiting TTS MasterTuners long anticipated results of next release of calibrations for '05/'06 H-D FLH series models (modified with o2s)  to be converted to o2 closed loop tuned as an '07.

[Rider57]

We took on this challenge solely at my request as I have been riding for 43 years. All on Harleys.
I have been working in the emissions / tuning field for 22 years total.
In that time neither I, or any of my coworkers have ever seen results like this.
The tune from whittlebeast did result in a smoother running engine, even with the skip. That was strange enough, but when it resulted in a 3rd order harmonic that caused flexing in the windshield, I wanted to look deeper into the tune and what was going on.
This is when we discovered the ecu skip, reset, or what ever you want to call it. It was the cause of the loss of hp also.
Some of the techs in the lab will continue looking into the exact problem if it can be found. If so, I will inform everyone right here.
Whittlebeast is on the right track but it is quite possible that something is not being interpreted correctly from the data.
Again as Steve Cole has stated many times on may different forums, ignore the bad data. Not only do you have to know what is correct for the run condition, you also have to immediately know what is bad and what conditions can bring it on.
Looks like that is easier said than done in the case of HD, 48* engines.
The Delphi ecu is all that is available at this time and is well capable of top notch performance when set correctly.
In my experience while using our systems at the lab, I have learned to fully trust my test equipment and the data from it rather than data derived from a generic scan tool or software.
A system needs to be designed to validate any and all data regardless of the source.
I have gleaned many ideas from Steve Mullin at nightrider. He would mention something he has seen, without knowing what I was working on, and a light would come on.
So, I re-state it again. Could it be a combination of VE's, spark, MAP or any single table? 
Could it be a quirk in the Delphi system as delivered to HD?
It may even be a combination of both!

[cts1950]

What I think is that the tune AW provided rider 57 found a glitch in the Delphi code. This could be a opportunity to explore what is the combination of ve,map or spark which exposed it. The way that electronics got off the ground in the beginning is that the engineers worked together because none of them had all the answers. They got together with brainstorming sessions and got the job done with out the infighting and egos in the way. This could be one of these opportunity's if the name calling ends and collaboration begins.

[FSG]

cts1950 can you clean that white space please?    Thanx     

[FLTRI]

What I think is that the tune AW provided rider 57 found a glitch in the Delphi code.

I don't think there is any argument that there is data that cannot be relied upon. You can call it a glitch or whatever. What is important is not to rely upon known bad data to make tuning decisions.
I think what Steve Cole is saying is they know the difference between good data vs bad and the V-tune software ignores the bad data so the data used for tuning with their software is accurate and reliable.
I also think that's what he's been trying to say in his most diplomatic demeanor ( ) when he says just to use the product as instructed and don't rely on outside software and raw data to analyze performance.
Just my observation,
Bob

[Steve Cole]

cts1950

While it is completely possible that what you think might be happening could be a Delphi code problem why is it that it appears over and over again just when WB starts screwing with things? The fact that there are millions of these out running around without issue being tuned by real tuners all over the world then when WB gets involved there are problems. He's not an engineer and he refuses to listen or learn how it works. He makes up stories at will about the ECM and the code but has no real understand about it at all. Then he goes off and does whatever and problems arise, the answer seems simple enough to me.

[Rider57]

This we have found out today and Steve is correct.
It is not a code error in the Delphi.
It is centered around the VE's.
We have duplicated the issue in the lab this morning by adjusting the VE's beyond the set point.
We are not talking about VE's maxing out as that can be addressed with the displacement.
It may in fact be the Delphi sensing that something is not correct and caused the skip as a normal condition.
At least that is the 1st plausible explanation that has come from the engineer on staff.
We will continue looking for the cause after this weekend and as free time in the lab comes available.

[Steve Cole]

Look guys this isn't about being right or wrong but after so long you get tired of beating your head against the wall.  What we set out to do was make a product that would help you tune the bike correctly, with no add-on equipment. Mastertune/Vtune when used as instructed does just that and the Delphi unit works just fine. We've said from day one it will get you 85% there and keep your bike operating safely. It's been proven to do that time and time again and as a matter of fact people have gotten over 90% done when checked on a dyno afterwards. Now Rider57 with the multi million dollar equipment was also able to  backup what we've said. Use the programs as instructed and go out ride and enjoy your bike!

Whittlebeast says it's wrong and makes his adjustments/changes and it goes to hell in a hand basket. The system starts to skip fire in some cases with his magic software created tune. So you ask where is the problem that Whittlebeast keeps talking about and the truth is we do not know if there really is one. It's my belief that he causes whatever to happen because he does not understand the system and I have given up trying and will not try any further with him.

[sportygordy]

This we have found out today and Steve is correct.
It is not a code error in the Delphi.
It is centered around the VE's.
We have duplicated the issue in the lab this morning by adjusting the VE's beyond the set point.
We are not talking about VE's maxing out as that can be addressed with the displacement.
It may in fact be the Delphi sensing that something is not correct and caused the skip as a normal condition.
At least that is the 1st plausible explanation that has come from the engineer on staff.
We willlooking for the cause after this weekend and as free time in the lab comes available.

Rider57, so you work for the EPA, when you say 'we' as in you and your techs and engineers doing this research work finding glitches in someones map, does this mean you are doing this work on my tax dollars? I'm just curious if you are taking on projects to prove something on your own behalf with your own test equipment, or are you doing this on government time with my test equipment and my tax dollar paying your wage.  If you are doing this on your own with your own test equipment and your own group of engineers, then i wont be mad and when you imply 'free' time in the lab.. If it's a government owned lab, there is no such thing as 'free time in the lab' and if you are a smart enough government employee, you would know this.
 

[Rider57]

This we have found out today and Steve is correct.
It is not a code error in the Delphi.
It is centered around the VE's.
We have duplicated the issue in the lab this morning by adjusting the VE's beyond the set point.
We are not talking about VE's maxing out as that can be addressed with the displacement.
It may in fact be the Delphi sensing that something is not correct and caused the skip as a normal condition.
At least that is the 1st plausible explanation that has come from the engineer on staff.
We willlooking for the cause after this weekend and as free time in the lab comes available.

Rider57, so you work for the EPA, when you say 'we' as in you and your techs and engineers doing this research work finding glitches in someones map, does this mean you are doing this work on my tax dollars? I'm just curious if you are taking on projects to prove something on your own behalf with your own test equipment, or are you doing this on government time with my test equipment and my tax dollar paying your wage.  If you are doing this on your own with your own test equipment and your own group of engineers, then i wont be mad and when you imply 'free' time in the lab.. If it's a government owned lab, there is no such thing as 'free time in the lab' and if you are a smart enough government employee, you would know this.
 

No, we do it on our own time, after hours and off the clock so to speak. All the positions are salaried so rather than have them sit around, I make use of all of us to keep the training up.  We also use issues like this to train student engineers as we did this time as well.
We use every opportunity to train up and coming student interns as required by our position.
There is much more going on "off the clock" than taxpayers and most others know. They clean the shop in their own time and clean their own tools as none are provided. I wouldn't call it research as it has already been researched.
But then again, if there were an emissions complain it would be on the clock and preempt any of this.
And as for your concern about free time, rest assured all investigative work is completed well within the time allowed.
You apparently are not aware of how a lab like this works and have a hazy view of what "free time" is.