Different A/F and numbers from Different Dynos

[whittlebeast]

I am seeing intake air temp 90 degrees over the ambient art temps on the baggers when they have the fairings.  The sporty was seeing temps 60 degrees over with the stock AC.  That is a perfect storm for detonation issues on hot days.

Yes I have developed tuning methods to work with the SERT to find and tune around the issues.

AW

[nc-renegade]

I got an Bob, just switch to the T-max and never have these problems.  Use a real ECM   (could not help it..sorry man)

I have monitored both the T-Max and the Delphi ECU for many hours and have not seen what he is reporting.  I also know (and feel) when the bike runs good and when it does not.  I have not seen these drop-outs on either SERT tuned ECU or the T-Max while idling and certainly not running down the road.  I've NOT heard complaints from owners of bikes that have had a good tuner work their magic, I know I would if the ECM behaved that badly.

I also suspect the Vtune and Mytune programs do very well too setting up the VE tables and these mentioned problems would show up during the data runs.  (BTW Steve, being the impatient person I am, I purchased the TTS yesterday so I can get started on my tune...hope the 05 conversion to 07 works soon).

[Steve Cole]

Your not going to tune around hot air entering the motor and that certainly is not a code issue. Since WB only has the SERT, SESPT, TL or TTS to adjust with he isn't tuning anything that any other tuner cannot do. Dealing with the hot air can only be changed by changing parts not changing tuning and people have been changing parts for years. So what it boils down to is picking the proper parts to do what you want the bike to do then tuning it in. As I recall people have been do just that for years.

[FLTRI]

AW,
Still haven't answered the question:
"So the test bike was a Sporty with stock exhaust and a free breathing A/C, right?

You feel the Heavy Breather corrects intake problems you've also identified with the production and/or std SE air cleaner/filter?"
Inquiring minds need to know,
Bob

[whittlebeast]

FLTRI

Yes,  I have found the heavy breather to deliver a far more constant and cooler IAT.

AW

[FLTRI]

AW,
Sorry for not effectively communicating my question specifically about the exhaust.
What exhaust system was on the Sporty during the experiments you conducted and noticed the problems with the Delphi system?

I am seeing intake air temp 90 degrees over the ambient art temps on the baggers when they have the fairings.  The sporty was seeing temps 60 degrees over with the stock AC.  That is a perfect storm for detonation issues on hot days.

Are you saying the IAT is so high in mild ambients that when the ambient temp goes above say 90 the IAT will still be somewhere over 150 degs? Certainly not impossible albeit rare. Have you found the IAT starts coming down as airspeed goes up through the intake tract especially when the bike starts travelling down the road, right?

Yes I have developed tuning methods to work with the SERT to find and tune around the issues.

This site is a great site because people are willing to share their experience(s) and knowledge. You have gone through a lot of data recording and analyzation. Believe me, I can appreciate the effort. May as well share your solutions as well as your findings. I, and a plethora of others are always looking to learn from others and share experiences with those who are interested.
Thanks AW,
Bob

[whittlebeast]

The exhaust has been been totally stock for over a year.  For a short period of time (like 3 or 4 logs I did have a 2-1 Rinehart when I was testing the ability of the bike to "learn") but for now that has been shelved as an expensive experiment.

The stock AC was getting wild swings in IAT and was very dependent on vehicle speed.  The results of that are difficult to quantify as identical, back to back testing is difficult to produce.  The results were so apparent to me, that I moved on to the next problem.

You would not believe some of the things that several of us have uncovered in testing in the last two years but I have found most of my posts have been met with personal attacks by a few people.  All I am trying to do is get people to look at their data from their bikes and see what I am looking at.  I have helped people tune 10 or 12 bikes and after time you start seeing patterns in the data.  I now start with V-Tune to get into the ballpark and then move on to statistical analysis and data logging to locate the dropouts and tune them out.  My usable powerband has about doubled compared to the stock tune.

AW

[FLTRI]

AW,
Can you go into a bit more detail to help us understand specifically what you are talking about with this statement?:
"then move on to statistical analysis and data logging to locate the dropouts and tune them out"
First, can you describe and illustrate exactly what you refer to as a dropout?
You basically indicate the current tuning methods/software (SERT, SEST, TTS, etc) are not good enough to correctly tune an engine and you are dissecting/analyzing data much more than most, but when you make such a generic statement to describe your solution(s), it really isn't much more than rhetoric to someone who doesn't understand what you are specifically referring to.
When you state you tune out the dropouts, exactly what do you change to do so? Is this a VE value change? Timing change? AFR table change?, etc.
Thanks for your effort,
Bob

[whittlebeast]

I would rather show this from data generated from a "V-Tuned" that a pro did so that I don't get accused of showing a poorly tuned bike.  All I need is a generic 02 data file from a bike on an hour long ride.  I do not even need to know what bike or whos bike it is. I would also love to see a log from a pro tuner.

AW

[FLTRI]

I would rather show this from data generated from a "V-Tuned" that a pro did so that I don't get accused of showing a poorly tuned bike.  All I need is a generic 02 data file from a bike on an hour long ride.  I do not even need to know what bike or whos bike it is. I would also love to see a log from a pro tuner.

AW

I readily see the data you are referring to however it is the actual changes you use to "cure" the dropouts or get around them that I am curious about.
PS - A v-tuned bike is not a professionally tuned bike. It is done by riders without tuning equipment to get the VE colors right. Once that has been accomplished the actual tune will be virtually spot on other than WOT and maybe a couple places where the rider couldn't get the v-tune in the area needed to tune, usually high rpm/large TP openings.

And again:
Can you go into a bit more detail to help us understand specifically what you are talking about with this statement?:
"then move on to statistical analysis and data logging to locate the dropouts and tune them out"First, can you describe and illustrate exactly what you refer to as a dropout?
You basically indicate the current tuning methods/software (SERT, SEST, TTS, etc) are not good enough to correctly tune an engine and you are dissecting/analyzing data much more than most, but when you make such a generic statement to describe your solution(s), it really isn't much more than rhetoric to someone who doesn't understand what you are specifically referring to.
When you state you tune out the dropouts, exactly what do you change to do so? Is this a VE value change? Timing change? AFR table change?, etc.
Thanks,
Bob
PSS- Do you tune bikes as a business or are you doing this for a hobby?

[whittlebeast]

I happen to use a 14 megabyte spreadsheet that I developed to help me locate these issues.  At this point I do not tune for a living or even mad money.  It is just an addition to tune my wifes bike to near perfection.

I enjoy learning and disecting EFI systems.  If my Chrysler Magnum or my Honda ST1300 had drivability issues, I would be disecting those.  You would be amazed of the tallent of the people that have contacted me in the last year.  Most have been forced underground by forums and people attacking them.  The Harley community is the biggest looser when that happens.

The short simple answer is that I use my software to locate the issues.  I use free third party graphing software to verify these issues and add a couple percent at a time to the only cells in question, and retest.  But I get to ride when I test so what's the down side.  The results are amazing and the detonation is gone.  Stock it was a mess.

did you ever wonder where in the maps you spend your time

see http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/RPMvsMAP.jpg

and http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/RPMvsTPS.jpg

Have fun tuning

AW

[Steve Cole]

WB

So you are using the data as collected by the SERT, SESPT or Mastertune. Then you turn around and claim there are code issues. So if there was truely code issues how do you know the data collected was correct to begin with? You cannot have it both ways! The data you posted a link to is nothing more than a simple scatter graph which can be done in Excel by anyone and all it shows is the data collected by one of the aforementioned programs which you claim to have code issues. Todate on any forum I have never once seen you post an answer to any question that has been asked of you about these supposed problems. You skate around answering them at all cost.

Fltri has asked several times and still gotten no answer to his questions, so how about answering them with straight forward answers.

First, can you describe and illustrate exactly what you refer to as a dropout?

When you state you tune out the dropouts, exactly what do you change to do so?

Is this a VE value change?

Timing change?

AFR table change?

You also stated you only tuning to get your wife bike running correctly "At this point I do not tune for a living or even mad money."

http://www.vtwinefi.com/ is your website that you advertise yourself as a tuner for hire!

[FLTRI]

AW,
"did you ever wonder where in the maps you spend your time"Sure did. About 12 years ago we did some data collection on the MM bikes then later on the Delphi bikes.
This is why I tell customers that WOT is the easiest part of tuning and if the tuner can't get it right (straight line AFR) @ WOT, then there is a good possibility the rest of the AFRs are not adjust for best performance.

As I explained, I have quite a bit of data collection experience and have analyzed that data many times.
I just have not found the need to record hours of running to find areas where specific attention is needed to maximize performance.

While I can see some of your points that the system is not perfect I have never found any system to be perfect, but have found that after years of working with these systems they are not as hard to figure out as one may think. A little common sense goes a long way to assure the bike runs good for the customer.

Also you PM'd me and mentioned a minor (2-3%) then retest. Do you find such a little bit more fuel makes that much difference in the way the bike runs? Or are you saying you change 2-3% at a time but it usually takes quite a bit of fuel delivery change to get the bike to respond favorably? If so about how much tuning change (%) does it take for the bike to run properly. Just trying to get my arms around the amount of tuning change you find necessary to get the bike to run best.

And are you also saying unless you record a long time and then analyze that recorded data, the bike simply won't run properly by using proper tuning procedures as taught by experienced tuners?

In other words, in your opinion, do tuners need to charge by the hour for their time (can you offer a ballpark timeframe?) to identify and resolve running issues using unconventional (other than SERT-type) software and techniques you have found as the solution to a tuning end.
Bob

[Steve Cole]

We finally had the chance to use the lab to test these 2 maps.
The lab test was about the only thing I could do to get to the issues.
Using the ETV / EPS system we found that the map provides by whittlebeast produced 4 hp less than the VTuned map.
Looking for the cause, we found the the rear cyl. was going into a pseudo heat mode. Why?
The data showed that the pulse width was at zero and indeed it was. The ETV /EPS system showed that the ecu "skipped" a cycle.
This was not a heat protection cycle, it just skipped.
When using the ETV / EPS for testing, any heat protection cycle is logged as such.
Comparing the VE against measured VE there were differences in some areas as much as 3 to 5 %.
Spark also showed differences of 1 to 3.5 degrees.

Testing with the VTuned map showed the 4hp had been gained back.
There were no dropouts in the rear injector and no false heat mode protection / skip cycles.
VE's were correct against measured VE's and spark for both cyl's.
Any ideas?

Thanks for the data as you have now backed up what we do with Vtune and shown that the lab equipment agrees with Vtune. This should put this to rest once and for all, I hope.

[whittlebeast]

So Steve.  What combination of settings that you can get to with a standard release TTS software could generate a dead miss and an intermittent 0ms pulse width?  Can you recreate this?  The only time I would normally expect this sort of thing is when the code looses sync or a stack overflow causing some sort of internal rest.

Please do share

AW

[Steve Cole]

WB

Sorry, but we did not create any such problems, you did. Look at the results from Rider57, its what whatever you've done with you special tuning that has caused the issues. With the standard Mastertune/Vtune product, following the instructions he tuned it up just fine, made more Hp and it ran properly. These results were proven by Rider57 testing on the certified lab equipment. What ever you are doing just isn't getting it done for whatever reason. Maybe it has something to do with the following statement by you.

"I happen to use a 14 megabyte spreadsheet that I developed to help me locate these issues.  At this point I do not tune for a living or even mad money.  It is just an addition to tune my wifes bike to near perfection."

I would suggest you quit trying to screw around with something that works perfectly that you do not understand and just let it do its job!

[whittlebeast]

So what combination of VE and AFR can yeald a random 0 pulse width a 2500 RPM when engine temps are normal.  Did I miss your explanation?

AW

[cts1950]

I have used the TTS Vtune. And I found it will get you close to a good tune. What I think AW is trying is to fine tune what vtune misses. I have tried Whittles program and have ironed out some rough spots that were missed. I can see it in ride ability a power band with out peaks and flat spots and more noticeably in the sound of my exhaust. For what ever reason my front cylinder seems to have been louder than the rear and the data logging has consistently shown a longer pulse width for that cylinder. After fine tuning the pulse width is almost a direct overlay and the exhaust note is almost identical for front and rear cylinders. I have seen a reduction in overall engine vibration especially at idle.

[Steve Cole]

So what combination of VE and AFR can yeald a random 0 pulse width a 2500 RPM when engine temps are normal.  Did I miss your explanation?

AW

I guess you still just will not leave things alone. Let me make it perfectly clear so you will understand. Quit screwing around with things you do not understand. You and your underground buddies are messing with things you do not know or understand. I have told you this several times on several different forums. What ever your screwing with has caused problems and this is not the first time it's happened. I do not know what you did to Rider57's calibration nor do I want to but you screwed it up plain and simple, what you did caused the issues. Back to back test on the certified lab equipment proved it! It also showed Vtune did just what we said it would.

[cts1950]

I fail to understand why using a program that uses a datamaster log of 10000 frames and averaging weather each cell recorded was rich or lean and then using master tune to manually make minor adjustments to the ve tables where the cells that were low or high is no different than manually smoothing the ve cells that Doc has called for, how will this mess up a calibration?

[Steve Cole]

When you average in bad data with good data what do you think the output is going to be?? All DataMaster does is record what the ECM is sending out plain and simple. It makes no decisions as to right or wrong, good or bad. That needs to be handled and I've tried to tell everyone over and over again it needs to be done. Just because there is data there doesn't mean it's good data or the right data, you cannot use it all and you have to know and understand the system and how it works to make those decisions from. Why do you think we removed some of the data items from what we first put out..... it was data from the ECM but it was BAD data most of the time. It was not needed for anything and it caused more trouble than it was worth, so we removed it. Well Whittlebeast and friends blew up and said it needed to be there, wrong again. Whittlebeast and friends will not listen, how many times on how many forums must I say the same thing. I am sorry if people think I'm hard on him but it gets old after doing the same old thing time after time. This is not the first time he has had these same results but now it's been confirmed by someone independent of what I've said, maybe this time he will listen. How can it be Vtune used the data, made a tune and the certified lab verified it with multi million dollar equipment then Whittlebeast and friends say it's wrong. Believe who you want as I'm done with trying.

[whittlebeast]

And all along I thought we were talking about a random dropouts of injection pulses generated by some combination of settings of VE and AFR (and who knows what other setting) you can get to in standard TTS software.  This was verified with a multi million dollar dyno.

Who was talking about fuel trims?

AW

[sportygordy]

WB

Sorry, but we did not create any such problems, you did. Look at the results from Rider57, its what whatever you've done with you special tuning that has caused the issues. With the standard Mastertune/Vtune product, following the instructions he tuned it up just fine, made more Hp and it ran properly. These results were proven by Rider57 testing on the certified lab equipment. What ever you are doing just isn't getting it done for whatever reason. Maybe it has something to do with the following statement by you.

"I happen to use a 14 megabyte spreadsheet that I developed to help me locate these issues.  At this point I do not tune for a living or even mad money.  It is just an addition to tune my wifes bike to near perfection."

I would suggest you quit trying to screw around with something that works perfectly that you do not understand and just let it do its job!

Steve,

Can you share with us who Rider57 is? and what is their qualifications in tuning Harley Davidson motorcycles. Are they, them, him or her a tuning shop, a lab, tuning hobbyist or one of your buddies?

thanks Steve,

best regards always, 

sportygordy

[whittlebeast]

Rider57 was an EPA dyno operator that used to certify preproduction engine combination's for the EPA test labs.  He has now moved up to management within the EPA and is on the road most of the time now.  He still has plenty of EPA engineering connections.  It was one of his engineers that found the pulse dropouts when searching for the 4 hp difference and the apparently related vibration of the windscreen.

[nc-renegade]

Rider57 was an EPA dydo operator that used to certify preproduction engine combinations for the EPA test labs.  He has now moved up to management within the EPA and is on the road most of the time now.  He still has plenty of EPA engineering connections.  It was one of his engineers that found the pulse dropouts when searching for the 4 hp difference and the apparently related vibration of the windscreen.

Did not Rider57 report your tuning method was faulty and the VTune performed as expected?  The drop-outs stopped after tuning the bike using VTune?