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Rebuild Bottom End 1970s 74in Shovelhead

Started by tinkering, May 07, 2020, 08:32:59 AM

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Ohio HD

I don't know what the bike is like, or what the plan is for it. But if it were mine, and the renewal costs aren't going to be too high, I'd reuse as much of the OEM parts (reconditioned) as I could. This stuff is getting more rare everyday.

Motor shafts, crank pins, bushing, bearings can all be sourced from Eastern. I'm sure the guys that have been mentioned are aware of where to get parts.

http://www.easternmotorcycleparts.com/engine/PAGE_123_124.html

JW113

Quote from: tinkering on May 07, 2020, 11:54:36 AM
Know where a guy could start looking for that article?

I thought I bookmarked it, but guess not. However, I did bookmark this one. Same process, but this guy makes his own insert instead of using the TC timken conversion one.

https://cyclesource.com/dont-junk-that-case-repair-a-loose-motor-case-bearing-insert/

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

FXDBI

Quote from: tinkering on May 07, 2020, 02:12:46 PM
Quote from: FXDBI on May 07, 2020, 01:31:58 PM
Quote from: fbn ent on May 07, 2020, 01:11:30 PM
Ray Laslo is around Edmonton too......40-45 years experience.

If you can get him to do your shovelhead engine he is the guy. Been years since I worked with him at Sulzer. The man is a awesome machinist and was set up to build engines at home.  Bob
What is Sulzer? I might wind up seeing if I can find him but I will try Sammich Sycles in Calgary first. Thanks

It is  a pump company specializes in multi stage high speed centrifugal pumps. He was the machine shop foreman there. Very sharp guy. Bob

cheech

Quote from: Ohio HD on May 07, 2020, 02:13:51 PM
I don't know what the bike is like, or what the plan is for it. But if it were mine, and the renewal costs aren't going to be too high, I'd reuse as much of the OEM parts (reconditioned) as I could. This stuff is getting more rare everyday.
:agree: New made in China crap to replace OEM always has me saying WTF. If none else available, what can ya do? Otherwise

tinkering

Quote from: cheech on May 07, 2020, 03:04:42 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on May 07, 2020, 02:13:51 PM
I don't know what the bike is like, or what the plan is for it. But if it were mine, and the renewal costs aren't going to be too high, I'd reuse as much of the OEM parts (reconditioned) as I could. This stuff is getting more rare everyday.
:agree: New made in China crap to replace OEM always has me saying WTF. If none else available, what can ya do? Otherwise
Sometimes you hear folks knockin the AMF years... save it for the CHN years :gob:

tinkering

Quote from: Ohio HD on May 07, 2020, 02:13:51 PM
I don't know what the bike is like, or what the plan is for it. But if it were mine, and the renewal costs aren't going to be too high, I'd reuse as much of the OEM parts (reconditioned) as I could. This stuff is getting more rare everyday.

Motor shafts, crank pins, bushing, bearings can all be sourced from Eastern. I'm sure the guys that have been mentioned are aware of where to get parts.

http://www.easternmotorcycleparts.com/engine/PAGE_123_124.html
I'm going to keep the bike. I'm going to keep it as close to 74 inches as I can. When the barrels are worn I'll move up. I'm with you 100%. I will reuse as much OEM as possible. I appreciate all the supplier recommendations you can throw at me thanks.

I guess the first thing for me to do is pull the crank assembly apart and clean up the wheels. What kind of media should I blast them with? What kind of tape do you use to protect the critical areas. What should I watch out for?
I might as well blast the cases and barrels while I'm at it... Anything else?
Thanks


Ohio HD

I use medium glass shot for cleaning up steel. Aluminum is best to use a fine glass shot, and the fine can be used on steel, it just takes longer. You won't hurt the flywheels, shafts or rods with glass shot. Get the oil free before beginning or you'll have glass media packing in corners from wet oils. The key is washing everything really well later. I never really needed to tape anything off, you can direct the flow where you want it. And it'll get in everywhere anyway, so back to the washing afterwards. 

Anytime you blast aluminum you don't use high pressure or stay on one spot so long you make low spots. Again a decent cabinet with a quality gun I use about 40 to 45 lbs air pressure.

JW113

Are you planning to assemble, balance, and true this bottom end yourself? Got the stuff to do it?

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

tinkering

Quote from: Ohio HD on May 07, 2020, 05:16:38 PM
I use medium glass shot for cleaning up steel. Aluminum is best to use a fine glass shot, and the fine can be used on steel, it just takes longer. You won't hurt the flywheels, shafts or rods with glass shot. Get the oil free before beginning or you'll have glass media packing in corners from wet oils. The key is washing everything really well later. I never really needed to tape anything off, you can direct the flow where you want it. And it'll get in everywhere anyway, so back to the washing afterwards. 

Anytime you blast aluminum you don't use high pressure or stay on one spot so long you make low spots. Again a decent cabinet with a quality gun I use about 40 to 45 lbs air pressure.
That's excellent info. Thanks
I need to get a cabinet set up. I wouldn't call my gun 'quality' but I'll give it a go. I've got a hundred pound propane bottle as an air tank, and two more I can piggyback if I need more reserve.
Do you use 100 psi on steel? My cut in/out is 90/110 psi I think.

I'll get some medium and fine glass shot. Thanks

tinkering

Quote from: JW113 on May 07, 2020, 06:01:45 PM
Are you planning to assemble, balance, and true this bottom end yourself? Got the stuff to do it?

-JW
I don't have all the stuff but I will do what I can, and farm out the rest.

JW113

So, just to toss out an opinion, since they're free and all....

You need to get the engine case fixed, and need to get the flywheels rebuilt. Any reason to not just pop the wheels back in the case, take it (or ship it) to a bottom end rebuilder and let them do all the cleaning-refurbishing-assembling? That's what many (not all) of us home boys do. Not to diss any of the very good shops represented on the HTT, but Dark Horse sure did right by me on the last one I needed the bottom rebuilt. Was an EVO, but not much diff than a Shov. And I tell you what, at 80-90mph, that thing is smoother than a playboy bunny's bottom.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Ohio HD

Quote from: tinkering on May 07, 2020, 06:31:44 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on May 07, 2020, 05:16:38 PM
I use medium glass shot for cleaning up steel. Aluminum is best to use a fine glass shot, and the fine can be used on steel, it just takes longer. You won't hurt the flywheels, shafts or rods with glass shot. Get the oil free before beginning or you'll have glass media packing in corners from wet oils. The key is washing everything really well later. I never really needed to tape anything off, you can direct the flow where you want it. And it'll get in everywhere anyway, so back to the washing afterwards. 

Anytime you blast aluminum you don't use high pressure or stay on one spot so long you make low spots. Again a decent cabinet with a quality gun I use about 40 to 45 lbs air pressure.
That's excellent info. Thanks
I need to get a cabinet set up. I wouldn't call my gun 'quality' but I'll give it a go. I've got a hundred pound propane bottle as an air tank, and two more I can piggyback if I need more reserve.
Do you use 100 psi on steel? My cut in/out is 90/110 psi I think.

I'll get some medium and fine glass shot. Thanks

I generally never go over 55 PSI no matter what it is. If you need to cut more aggressively, you change the media to something else.

Keep saying this: Clean, clean, clean, blow out, blow out, blow out, clean again. Nothing ruins a rebuild faster than glass media stuck in the heads oil returns, cases oil passages, etc.

cheech

As JW stated, one could never go wrong with Darkhorse.

Funny thing also with this thread popping up.
This video was on my Youtube feed tonight. Watch Video
His name is Dragonman, I faintly have heard of him. Can't vouch for any of his work or whatnot. If others on here have any insight hopefully they will share.
Seems to have a nice old school shop if anything. Watch the video regardless, it's cool.
He gives his number, address to send him all your stuff and he claims for a $1000 he'll do a basic shovel rebuild, assembles lower and ships back to you to assemble topend.
If he checks out, for a no frills basic Shovel job that seems a good deal. YMMV!!

Ohio HD

Dragonman, just say no.....   I'll leave it at that.

cheech

#39
Quote from: Ohio HD on May 07, 2020, 07:43:47 PM
Dragonman, just say no.....   I'll leave it at that.
:up: Well there's that. Never heard of him as far as work goes. Figured someone would clue us in. So didn't know either way.


tinkering

#41
That's a lot of bad exposure. Thanks for the heads up on that. Who needs a potential runaround. Dang
The way that sounds, I could save the $1000 and throw all those old rusty parts in a cement mixer with some media, and reassemble. Voila :potstir:

cheech

#42
Quote from: tinkering on May 07, 2020, 08:54:44 PM
That's a lot of bad exposure. Thanks for the heads up on that. Who needs a potential runaround. Dang
The way that sounds, I could save the $1000 and throw all those old rusty parts in a cement mixer with some media, and reassemble. Voila :potstir:
Indeed. So has Deye experienced any of his work? LOL Seems he was adamant in all those threads.
What a shame, not saying his shop is state of the art or anything. But it was laid out and organized pretty decent.
I did ponder why he had what appeared to be a older Sunnen seat and guide machine then claim he ground the seats by hand and honed the guides on those old Sunnen hones.  :scratch:

tinkering

#43
Quote from: Ohio HD on May 07, 2020, 07:18:07 PM
Quote from: tinkering on May 07, 2020, 06:31:44 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on May 07, 2020, 05:16:38 PM
I use medium glass shot for cleaning up steel. Aluminum is best to use a fine glass shot, and the fine can be used on steel, it just takes longer. You won't hurt the flywheels, shafts or rods with glass shot. Get the oil free before beginning or you'll have glass media packing in corners from wet oils. The key is washing everything really well later. I never really needed to tape anything off, you can direct the flow where you want it. And it'll get in everywhere anyway, so back to the washing afterwards. 

Anytime you blast aluminum you don't use high pressure or stay on one spot so long you make low spots. Again a decent cabinet with a quality gun I use about 40 to 45 lbs air pressure.
That's excellent info. Thanks
I need to get a cabinet set up. I wouldn't call my gun 'quality' but I'll give it a go. I've got a hundred pound propane bottle as an air tank, and two more I can piggyback if I need more reserve.
Do you use 100 psi on steel? My cut in/out is 90/110 psi I think.

I'll get some medium and fine glass shot. Thanks

I generally never go over 55 PSI no matter what it is. If you need to cut more aggressively, you change the media to something else.

Keep saying this: Clean, clean, clean, blow out, blow out, blow out, clean again. Nothing ruins a rebuild faster than glass media stuck in the heads oil returns, cases oil passages, etc.
Can a guy use engine cleaner, power washer, and air before the bead blast, and then power washer and air afterwards?
I found a 55lb bag of 60-80 micron glass beads. Is that size usable? $50 CAD

tinkering

#44
Quote from: cheech on May 07, 2020, 09:12:15 PM
Quote from: tinkering on May 07, 2020, 08:54:44 PM
That's a lot of bad exposure. Thanks for the heads up on that. Who needs a potential runaround. Dang
The way that sounds, I could save the $1000 and throw all those old rusty parts in a cement mixer with some media, and reassemble. Voila :potstir:
Indeed. So has Deye experienced any of his work? LOL Seems he was adamant in all those threads.
What a shame, not saying his shop is state of the art or anything. But it was laid out and organized pretty decent.
I did ponder why he had what appeared to be a older Sunnen seat and guide machine then claim he ground the seats by hand and honed the guides on those old Sunnen hones.  :scratch:
The shop footage is either a scam or dragonman has improved his service. Out of fairness I hope for the latter but I don't want to gamble it.

tinkering

This BT7-grit 60-80 micron abrasive can be used for finishing, cleaning, deburring and peening applications. It can be used on a wide range of materials, including metal, glass, plastic and rubber. It contains no detectable crystalline silica.

Is this medium or fine? Will it work for both?

Hillside Motorcycle

We re-build those cranks here and have for about 30 years now, and are fully equipped with a dedicated work area for this.
By the time you are set-ready-go with all the tooling needed, S&S Master Balancing Tools, flywheel fixtures, truing stand, indicators, rod re-build tools, line lapper, drill press, or mill,(a lathe is handy also) torque wrenches, various custom jigs and holders, etc, etc, etc, a shop can have north of $7500.00 plus dollars tied up in this, at today's prices, w/o the machine tools.
Otto Knowbetter sez, "Even a fish wouldn't get caught if he kept his mouth shut"

Hybredhog

   There are a bunch of people here including myself that rebuild & balance flywheels, as we acquired all of the previously mentioned tools over the years when rebuilding the old stuff was a basic need. So just having someone do the wheels or buy a new S&S assembly is far cheaper & quicker than torturing your wallet. But I still see that the flywheels themselves are about the only savable items, and rods that don't get magnafluxed checked are an accident waiting to happen. You can do it on the Cheap with Chinese parts, and if staying with basic 74" configuration, you'd probably be OK, but that's your bet to back.
    As for case inspection & repair, I bolt down oven heated case halves & using plugs I made, I can put some stress on the races to see if they move. If they are loose, you can see oil seep out around the races. At that point if they're bad I don't ***K around & just ship them off to Dark Horse. These kind of shops have dedicated fixtures & machine to do fast and quality work far faster than It'd take me to set up my mill.
    Dragon Man, That guy was great for my Business!!!! I should have sent him Christmas cards.
'01 FXDXT, '99 FXDL/XRD, '76 FLH

Ohio HD

Quote from: jeffscycle on May 08, 2020, 09:42:55 AM
    Dragon Man, That guy was great for my Business!!!! I should have sent him Christmas cards.

:hyst:     :hyst:     :hyst:     :hyst:     

tinkering

Quote from: Ohio HD on May 07, 2020, 07:18:07 PM
Quote from: tinkering on May 07, 2020, 06:31:44 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on May 07, 2020, 05:16:38 PM
I use medium glass shot for cleaning up steel. Aluminum is best to use a fine glass shot, and the fine can be used on steel, it just takes longer. You won't hurt the flywheels, shafts or rods with glass shot. Get the oil free before beginning or you'll have glass media packing in corners from wet oils. The key is washing everything really well later. I never really needed to tape anything off, you can direct the flow where you want it. And it'll get in everywhere anyway, so back to the washing afterwards. 

Anytime you blast aluminum you don't use high pressure or stay on one spot so long you make low spots. Again a decent cabinet with a quality gun I use about 40 to 45 lbs air pressure.
That's excellent info. Thanks
I need to get a cabinet set up. I wouldn't call my gun 'quality' but I'll give it a go. I've got a hundred pound propane bottle as an air tank, and two more I can piggyback if I need more reserve.
Do you use 100 psi on steel? My cut in/out is 90/110 psi I think.

I'll get some medium and fine glass shot. Thanks

I generally never go over 55 PSI no matter what it is. If you need to cut more aggressively, you change the media to something else.

Keep saying this: Clean, clean, clean, blow out, blow out, blow out, clean again. Nothing ruins a rebuild faster than glass media stuck in the heads oil returns, cases oil passages, etc.
Can a guy use engine cleaner, power washer, and air before the bead blast, and then power washer and air afterwards?
I found a 55lb bag of BT7 grit, 60-80 micron glass beads. Is that medium or fine? $50 CAD