Anti-Gravity Re-Start battery in big motors

[cheech]

That and the ATX30-HD show as on back order.

Ah hah, that's why.

I have AG 680 CCA batteries with re-start in both of my FXRs with high compression 124" engines. Both bikes fire off instantly. I have bricked a few lithium batteries that did not have a re-start like feature. IME with eight lithium batteries in high compression, big block engines, a re-start like feature is critical for long term survivability of these batteries. I also cannot imagine every going back to conventional AGM batteries again. I know, that AGM that you have is much better. It is the best.

So that's first hand info that proves they will start big inch engines, no issues. 
By chance you happen to ever have to use the restart feature on those?

[turboprop]

That and the ATX30-HD show as on back order.

Ah hah, that's why.

I have AG 680 CCA batteries with re-start in both of my FXRs with high compression 124" engines. Both bikes fire off instantly. I have bricked a few lithium batteries that did not have a re-start like feature. IME with eight lithium batteries in high compression, big block engines, a re-start like feature is critical for long term survivability of these batteries. I also cannot imagine every going back to conventional AGM batteries again. I know, that AGM that you have is much better. It is the best.

So that's first hand info that proves they will start big inch engines, no issues. 
By chance you happen to ever have to use the restart feature on those?

Yes. It works as advertised. This is the feature that makes this type of battery relabel for every day use. Especially for the newer bikes that have electronics with a slow draw when the bike is parked. The battery will self disconnect before it's internal power gets too close to being 'bricked'. Dead bike? simply hit the button and fire it up. Its a game changer. Dont buy a lithium without some flavor fo this feature.

[cheech]

  Dont buy a lithium without some flavor fo this feature.

I pondered the higher power ATX20 cased battery for this 107" Bigdog I'm getting back together.
But got the restart anyway in light of the 103" disclaimer, based upon the "bricking" issues you and others have experienced.

[Appowner]

I think some of you guys have a misconception about this re-start feature.  I believe that circuit board which isn't supposed to handle the current draw is used ONLY when using the re-start feature.  At least high current use.  So as long as the battery isn't drained to the point of needing the re-start, that board is basically just along for the ride.  To properly test that battery in a big motor, one would have to start by draining the main battery to the point where the re-start feature is necessary.

[turboprop]

I think some of you guys have a misconception about this re-start feature.  I believe that circuit board which isn't supposed to handle the current draw is used ONLY when using the re-start feature.  At least high current use.  So as long as the battery isn't drained to the point of needing the re-start, that board is basically just along for the ride.  To properly test that battery in a big motor, one would have to start by draining the main battery to the point where the re-start feature is necessary.

Sounds like you have never used one of these batteries, but yet here you are giving advice about them. Funny.

FYI - The only time anyone would use the re-start feature is when the battery is drained down. Like I posted earlier with my high compression 124" engines.

Too funny. Cant make this stuff up. This is a tech forum. Would be great if everyone here only posted about things they have first hand knowledge about.

[TN]

I went to Antigravity battery site and used their search function for my bike a 2009 FLTRSE3, it recommended the ATX-30-RS. I ordered it, a smart charger and a few other things. Before my battery even came in I saw a statement in regard to the RS and sent off emails and phone calls to antigravity. When I finally talked with someone (Chad) he concurred that the RS was not the best option. I was told to ship package back and I did, they issued a partial refund minus the shipping charges, I've tried to speak with someone on this with antigravity but they won't even acknowledge me or my concerns with their business practices. So my effort cost me $30.05 and nothing to show for it. This all happened in the last few months.

Just my real world experience is all, I do like the technology

[kd]

I went to Antigravity battery site and used their search function for my bike a 2009 FLTRSE3, it recommended the ATX-30-RS. I ordered it, a smart charger and a few other things. Before my battery even came in I saw a statement in regard to the RS and sent off emails and phone calls to antigravity. When I finally talked with someone (Chad) he concurred that the RS was not the best option. I was told to ship package back and I did, they issued a partial refund minus the shipping charges, I've tried to speak with someone on this with antigravity but they won't even acknowledge me or my concerns with their business practices. So my effort cost me $30.05 and nothing to show for it. This all happened in the last few months.

Just my real world experience is all, I do like the technology

I would contact them again, explain your story and ask them what happened that you should have had an expense like that.  I do know that their office was closed due to COVID-19 since March and the employees were working from home and cell phones.  I know this because I was in touch with Scott and Chad during that time trying to get a Battery Tracker device to work properly.  They eventually simply sent a new one no charge to me in Canada. My last order included a couple of treats and a discount coupon. I have dealt with them for years and your problem seems totally contrary to my experiences. 

[Azgunner]

Turboprop, did anyone at AG advise you to go with the ATX with the restart feature vs. the YTX without it? I know, based on your other posts, that you take great care to know what you're talkng about before you say or do something. Glad you've not had any issues, I would have preferred to have the "restart" feature. I wonder if AG had some returns so they added the disclaimer to avoid future warranty claims.

Doesn't really make sense to mfr. a battery that has such high cca unless it was going to be used for a high comp, big inch motor.

[turboprop]

Turboprop, did anyone at AG advise you to go with the ATX with the restart feature vs. the YTX without it? I know, based on your other posts, that you take great care to know what you're talkng about before you say or do something. Glad you've not had any issues, I would have preferred to have the "restart" feature. I wonder if AG had some returns so they added the disclaimer to avoid future warranty claims.

Doesn't really make sense to mfr. a battery that has such high cca unless it was going to be used for a high comp, big inch motor.

I have not talked with anyone at AG. Ever. My history with these things is I was an early adopter of Lithium batteries. Loved the light weight, slow to non existent discharge, and incredible power. Early on there were nay sayers about about having to warm them up in cold temps. That turned out to be a non issue, but the real issue was letting the voltage get too low. Unlike a traditional AGM there is no bringing one of these back. I bricked a bunch lithium batteries from a bunch of different brands, including a pre-restart AG and a Twin Power unit. All of the brick-ings were my own fault. I left something on and walked away without knowing. When I saw the re-start video, it was like a light bulb had turned on. Whalla! The one in my red/white FXR with the TC124 with 12.9 compression is going on three years. That battery has gone into re-start mode a few times (my own fault), but every time I simply press the button and it fires up. Immediately. About that firing up, the voltage drop with this battery is negligible. Admittedly, the rest of the system is pretty robust, bordering somewhat on ridiculous. , but this engine fires (not cranks) immediately when the start button is pressed. No cranking, no waiting for the crankshaft to spin three times. Press the button, instant ignition. Always. A bunch of my friends bought into th Twin Power batteries when they came out. They worked great, but did not have any type of internal protection like re-start. Myself and everyone I know have bricked them. TP explained what we did wrong and even offered to comp me one. But i recognized it was my fault and bought a re-start battery. Best battery I have ever had. I have the same battery in both of my FXRs equipped  with high compression TC124 engines.

[Admiral Akbar]

Turboprop, did anyone at AG advise you to go with the ATX with the restart feature vs. the YTX without it? I know, based on your other posts, that you take great care to know what you're talkng about before you say or do something. Glad you've not had any issues, I would have preferred to have the "restart" feature. I wonder if AG had some returns so they added the disclaimer to avoid future warranty claims.

Doesn't really make sense to mfr. a battery that has such high cca unless it was going to be used for a high comp, big inch motor.

I have not talked with anyone at AG. Ever. My history with these things is I was an early adopter of Lithium batteries. Loved the light weight, slow to non existent discharge, and incredible power. Early on there were nay sayers about about having to warm them up in cold temps. That turned out to be a non issue, but the real issue was letting the voltage get too low. Unlike a traditional AGM there is no bringing one of these back. I bricked a bunch lithium batteries from a bunch of different brands, including a pre-restart AG and a Twin Power unit. All of the brick-ings were my own fault. I left something on and walked away without knowing. When I saw the re-start video, it was like a light bulb had turned on. Whalla! The one in my red/white FXR with the TC124 with 12.9 compression is going on three years. That battery has gone into re-start mode a few times (my own fault), but every time I simply press the button and it fires up. Immediately. About that firing up, the voltage drop with this battery is negligible. Admittedly, the rest of the system is pretty robust, bordering somewhat on ridiculous. , but this engine fires (not cranks) immediately when the start button is pressed. No cranking, no waiting for the crankshaft to spin three times. Press the button, instant ignition. Always. A bunch of my friends bought into th Twin Power batteries when they came out. They worked great, but did not have any type of internal protection like re-start. Myself and everyone I know have bricked them. TP explained what we did wrong and even offered to comp me one. But i recognized it was my fault and bought a re-start battery. Best battery I have ever had. I have the same battery in both of my FXRs equipped  with high compression TC124 engines.

Finally a LI battery that is Turboprop-proof.. Eh Ed?

[kd]

Remember that the ATX30-HD and others have the shutdown safety feature too.  They just don't have the convenience of a reset button.  Expect to see a remote in the near future. I was waiting for them but they were put off to devote themselves to other stuff for a bit. 

These batteries have been in the works for a few years.  Scott and I have discussed them at SEMA for about 3 years so I waited thinking it would happen sooner.  He talked me into the ATX30-HD instead of the restart and told me to flash it with 12 volts to reset it.  It wasn't hard after finding out there was no remote available yet.

BTW the AG ATX has 4 posts so you can run accessories without packing it all on 2 posts.

[turboprop]

Turboprop, did anyone at AG advise you to go with the ATX with the restart feature vs. the YTX without it? I know, based on your other posts, that you take great care to know what you're talkng about before you say or do something. Glad you've not had any issues, I would have preferred to have the "restart" feature. I wonder if AG had some returns so they added the disclaimer to avoid future warranty claims.

Doesn't really make sense to mfr. a battery that has such high cca unless it was going to be used for a high comp, big inch motor.

I have not talked with anyone at AG. Ever. My history with these things is I was an early adopter of Lithium batteries. Loved the light weight, slow to non existent discharge, and incredible power. Early on there were nay sayers about about having to warm them up in cold temps. That turned out to be a non issue, but the real issue was letting the voltage get too low. Unlike a traditional AGM there is no bringing one of these back. I bricked a bunch lithium batteries from a bunch of different brands, including a pre-restart AG and a Twin Power unit. All of the brick-ings were my own fault. I left something on and walked away without knowing. When I saw the re-start video, it was like a light bulb had turned on. Whalla! The one in my red/white FXR with the TC124 with 12.9 compression is going on three years. That battery has gone into re-start mode a few times (my own fault), but every time I simply press the button and it fires up. Immediately. About that firing up, the voltage drop with this battery is negligible. Admittedly, the rest of the system is pretty robust, bordering somewhat on ridiculous. , but this engine fires (not cranks) immediately when the start button is pressed. No cranking, no waiting for the crankshaft to spin three times. Press the button, instant ignition. Always. A bunch of my friends bought into th Twin Power batteries when they came out. They worked great, but did not have any type of internal protection like re-start. Myself and everyone I know have bricked them. TP explained what we did wrong and even offered to comp me one. But i recognized it was my fault and bought a re-start battery. Best battery I have ever had. I have the same battery in both of my FXRs equipped  with high compression TC124 engines.

Finally a LI battery that is Turboprop-proof.. Eh Ed?

It certainly seems to be up to the task. Lots of noise here over over nothing. Might as well be discussing TC lifters.

[TN]

I went to Antigravity battery site and used their search function for my bike a 2009 FLTRSE3, it recommended the ATX-30-RS. I ordered it, a smart charger and a few other things. Before my battery even came in I saw a statement in regard to the RS and sent off emails and phone calls to antigravity. When I finally talked with someone (Chad) he concurred that the RS was not the best option. I was told to ship package back and I did, they issued a partial refund minus the shipping charges, I've tried to speak with someone on this with antigravity but they won't even acknowledge me or my concerns with their business practices. So my effort cost me $30.05 and nothing to show for it. This all happened in the last few months.

Just my real world experience is all, I do like the technology

I would contact them again, explain your story and ask them what happened that you should have had an expense like that.  I do know that their office was closed due to COVID-19 since March and the employees were working from home and cell phones.  I know this because I was in touch with Scott and Chad during that time trying to get a Battery Tracker device to work properly.  They eventually simply sent a new one no charge to me in Canada. My last order included a couple of treats and a discount coupon. I have dealt with them for years and your problem seems totally contrary to my experiences.

I guess I caught them at a bad time, my bank refunded the return shipping charge I paid, but I'm still out $30.05 for original shipping cost. I called, left messages and sent emails to try and speak with someone to exchange the RS for the HD version with additional cost, I never disclosed the reason for this contact, just to call me.

When speaking to Chad it wasn't so much the displacement of engine but a touring model with all the electrical accessories that caused the concern (I think) The restart feature on these would be a task to reset on my bike, better than nothing I guess. I'll stay with my Yuasa and carry my jump box for now.

[kd]

I went to Antigravity battery site and used their search function for my bike a 2009 FLTRSE3, it recommended the ATX-30-RS. I ordered it, a smart charger and a few other things. Before my battery even came in I saw a statement in regard to the RS and sent off emails and phone calls to antigravity. When I finally talked with someone (Chad) he concurred that the RS was not the best option. I was told to ship package back and I did, they issued a partial refund minus the shipping charges, I've tried to speak with someone on this with antigravity but they won't even acknowledge me or my concerns with their business practices. So my effort cost me $30.05 and nothing to show for it. This all happened in the last few months.

Just my real world experience is all, I do like the technology

I would contact them again, explain your story and ask them what happened that you should have had an expense like that.  I do know that their office was closed due to COVID-19 since March and the employees were working from home and cell phones.  I know this because I was in touch with Scott and Chad during that time trying to get a Battery Tracker device to work properly.  They eventually simply sent a new one no charge to me in Canada. My last order included a couple of treats and a discount coupon. I have dealt with them for years and your problem seems totally contrary to my experiences.

I guess I caught them at a bad time, my bank refunded the return shipping charge I paid, but I'm still out $30.05 for original shipping cost. I called, left messages and sent emails to try and speak with someone to exchange the RS for the HD version with additional cost, I never disclosed the reason for this contact, just to call me.

When speaking to Chad it wasn't so much the displacement of engine but a touring model with all the electrical accessories that caused the concern (I think) The restart feature on these would be a task to reset on my bike, better than nothing I guess. I'll stay with my Yuasa and carry my jump box for now.

My original point was the non jumpstart batteries can be brought back with a 12v signal.  You can use the starter studs or a harness from the battery.  They sell a harness for use with a jumper too.

[Appowner]

I think some of you guys have a misconception about this re-start feature.  I believe that circuit board which isn't supposed to handle the current draw is used ONLY when using the re-start feature.  At least high current use.  So as long as the battery isn't drained to the point of needing the re-start, that board is basically just along for the ride.  To properly test that battery in a big motor, one would have to start by draining the main battery to the point where the re-start feature is necessary.

Sounds like you have never used one of these batteries, but yet here you are giving advice about them. Funny.

FYI - The only time anyone would use the re-start feature is when the battery is drained down. Like I posted earlier with my high compression 124" engines.

Too funny. Cant make this stuff up. This is a tech forum. Would be great if everyone here only posted about things they have first hand knowledge about.

43 years as an electronic technician.  Radio navigation, satellite, microwave and computer systems.  Component level maintenance.  And while you're right, I haven't used these particular batteries.  I have used Lithium batteries in a number of applications and have what I believe to be a good working knowledge of them.  And while I see you are quick with the criticism.  You're pretty short with your own explanation of the issue.  Very Funny!

Back to my point.  I suspect that portion of the circuit board which is being referred to as not capable of handling the load of starting a larger engine.  That portion of the board is used ONLY when the re-start feature is used.

[Azgunner]

The guy I talked to on my initial inquiry about the 103" & larger, hi-comp note indicated that the concern with damage to the ciruit board/circuitry had to do with any time the engine was being started, not just when the "restart" function was used.

I called again yesterday & talked to Chad regarding the compatability of a Li-ion charger that I already have with the YTX-20 bat that I had just purchased. I also mentioned my previous conversation with a different tech about that disclaimer note & Chad concurred. I also mentioned there was an individual on one of the Harley forums that was using the AG bat with the restart feature on their hi-comp 124" without any problems & he seemed surprised. He used the analogy of having two identical bikes with identical builds & yet one happens to perfom better than the other, no explanation.

Turboprop, is it possible there is something with how you have your electrical system set-up vs. a standard H-D system that could be negating the potential damage to the restart bat circuitry? Regardless, I'm glad you've not had any issues with the restart batteries in your bikes. Your posts in another thread about your success with the AG batteries is what got me looking into them rather than just sticking with the Twin Power.

You also mentioned you've "bricked" a few other Li-ion bats in the past, other than not leaving the bike with the key turned ON, is there anything else to pay attention to NOT doing with these types of batteries?   Thanks.

[Appowner]

The guy I talked to on my initial inquiry about the 103" & larger, hi-comp note indicated that the concern with damage to the ciruit board/circuitry had to do with any time the engine was being started, not just when the "restart" function was used.

I called again yesterday & talked to Chad regarding the compatability of a Li-ion charger that I already have with the YTX-20 bat that I had just purchased. I also mentioned my previous conversation with a different tech about that disclaimer note & Chad concurred. I also mentioned there was an individual on one of the Harley forums that was using the AG bat with the restart feature on their hi-comp 124" without any problems & he seemed surprised. He used the analogy of having two identical bikes with identical builds & yet one happens to perfom better than the other, no explanation.

Turboprop, is it possible there is something with how you have your electrical system set-up vs. a standard H-D system that could be negating the potential damage to the restart bat circuitry? Regardless, I'm glad you've not had any issues with the restart batteries in your bikes. Your posts in another thread about your success with the AG batteries is what got me looking into them rather than just sticking with the Twin Power.

That anytime would have god to know up front.  That does make a difference but also raises another question.  That is what's the difference between the re-start and non-re-start units?  I thought they all had a circuit board in them if for nothing else than proper charging.

[Appowner]

OK, I contacted AG and this was their reply.

"We don't recommend the Restart models for 103" or larger engines as they generally draw a lot of power on start up and (in addition to all the accessories) can trigger the protection cutoffs (over-discharge and thermal mainly) and put the battery into sleep mode, so our non-Restart HD models should be used instead. We know that some people are using our Restart batteries in their big V-twins without issues, but it is not something we can guarantee for all as the cutoff parameters were not set with big V-twins in mind. Also, all Restart batteries have to save some power before going into sleep mode. The ATX20-HD and ATX30-HD were designed for big V-twins and can handle that deeper draw much better. They offer larger usable capacities and the sleep mode/protection cutoffs kick in at a lower voltage point because they don't save any power before going into sleep mode. On the flipside, there is no restart feature."   No name given so I don't know who at AG to credit with this.

So it seems if you have two identical batteries with the exception that one is a re-start, the cut off parameters of the re-start battery are set to higher levels (voltages) than the other battery.  Meaning it will shut down sooner due to low voltage than the other battery.  And this is in order have that "saved" capacity for the re-start function.  In addition the re-start batteries simply were not engineered with the current draw of the bigger engines in mind.  Hence they may work and then again, they may not.

[JW113]

So what is harder to turn over and draws more power, a high compression 80" Evo, or a high compression TC124" with compression releases?

-JW

[Deye76]

AG's web site is confusing. Before the disclaimer about 103" engines, which I didn't see when I ordered mine is,

"BEST USES

    For replacement of all OEM Lead/Acid Batteries of same size.
    Excellent for every day use in bikes up to 2200cc.
    Great for extra large, high-performance V-Twin motors.
    Excellent for Touring Bikes, Adventure Bikes and Bikes where extreme power and larger Amp Hour capacity are needed."

So far the restart 680 amp I have spins my 113" effortlessly. Hope it lasts.

[hattitude]

I called AG today, Scott wasn't available, but I talked to one of their other senior techs & he explained that the deep amp draw that is required for the larger than 103" motors would damage the circuit board used in the Restart version of the ATX batteries. The circuitry is not built to handle the amp draw required for bigger engines. He instead recommended the YTX-20 version which he said was the same as the ATX-20 except without the "restart" capability & circuitry & could handle the deep amp draws needed to spin-up a 124".

I sent them an email about this almost a year ago... It was just before I installed my 124" crate engine , and I was thinking of changing to an Anti-Gravity Re-Start battery... FWIW.. I just left my 3 yr old Yuasa GYZ32HL battery in the bike and it hasn't missed a beat yet...

They didn't tell me it would "damage" the circuit board, but said the deep draw would trigger the Restart feature...

I saved the email they sent:

"Thank you for reaching out to us.

Those 103 ci and larger engines create a very high current draw, so they can trigger the Restart feature of the ATX30-RS.
In other words, the battery itself can handle that engine just fine, but its Restart parameters for the "sleep mode" are not set up for that kind of a draw.
Kind of like how some cars could easily reach 160 mph but are electronically limited to 140 mph.

For your bike we recommend the ATX30-HD. It doesn't come with the Restart feature, but still offers full BMS and all the protections, while packing even more cranking power and a higher capacity. This battery allows for a higher draw those engine create. 


I hope this helps, but please let me know if you have any additional questions.

Best Regards,
Sonny"

[rageglide]

Did anyone ask for clarification about whether the large displacement engine has compression releases or not??   There's a night and day difference in amp draw between the two...

My high compression 120"(similar to KDs, 210ccp) starts without any issue using original starter and a standard AGM battery.  But losing one compression release it definitely struggles.  I expect an AG would spin it like a top w/CRs and likely be fine without any CRs, other than a higher amp draw.

[Appowner]

Did anyone ask for clarification about whether the large displacement engine has compression releases or not??   There's a night and day difference in amp draw between the two...

My high compression 120"(similar to KDs, 210ccp) starts without any issue using original starter and a standard AGM battery.  But losing one compression release it definitely struggles.  I expect an AG would spin it like a top w/CRs and likely be fine without any CRs, other than a higher amp draw.

So what's the comparison of current draw between a stock 96" and a 124" or bigger with ACRs?  Any ideas?  And anyone know what that 124 might draw without the ACRs?  And is that 124 a typical build or is it something special?

Without firm data the whole thing is just conjecture.

[kd]

Do a compression test without deactivating the ACR's.  You're likely going to get around 150#.  The only other difference may be a longer stroke.  I think AG can't determine if the buyer has ACR assist so they default to any large displacement assuming high compression may be present. I opted to go to the ATX30 and install a jumper harness to use in the event I leave something on long enough to put it to sleep.