Interesting Tear Down Diagnosis Of A Twin Cam Before Rebuild

[2013_FLHTK]

Kevin Baxter has been doing a series of teardowns and diagnostics on Harley engines. The links below are for 2007 Twin Cam. I found this interesting so I thought I'd share.

Part One: https://youtu.be/bSFeGU3yuPw

Part Two: https://youtu.be/vpg2YhfsU_4

[Norton Commando]

Very informative videos; thanks for sharing.

Jason

[sixxfoot]

Yes great video no doubt, Extremely sharp and well-versed guy... I believe years ago Kevin used a lot of Headquarters products back in the day .

[motorhogman]

Book marked this and just watched it.. Thanks. I did find it interesting.. and glad I'm not running an 07...Are they really that bad ? 

[ultrafxr]

Book marked this and just watched it.. Thanks. I did find it interesting.. and glad I'm not running an 07...Are they really that bad ?

Yes, yes and yes.  I had an '07 CVO Ultra and I almost parted company with the moco over it.  The early 110s and even the 96s to a lesser extent were just horrible - leaking head gaskets, leaking cylinder base gaskets, movement in the cylinder sleeves, dropping valve guides, cam bearings and lifters grenading and taking out the entire motor.

[Tacocaster]

Well, here we go.....there's always the exception.

Nope, all 07's are NOT that bad. Not all of them. Mine has 200,000Kms, has never soiled itself (leaked), there are no whisper marks on the inside of the cam plate at the pump but I am considering measuring runout for a gear drive upgrade and will be performing a leak down test for shitz n' grins later this winter.

Bought off the showroom floor May 2007, all "solo-rider" miles, not baby'd but not driven like a rental either. I have seen 100 MPH more than a few times but I don't whack the throttle like a bull's azz either.

I do 5,000km oil/filter changes faithfully (Mobile 1), Trans and Primary (Redline) fluid changes at about 20,000kms, perform all repairs promptly, original clutch plates, original shifter shaft/trans mainshaft and engine sprocket seals, replaced inner primary bearing, seal, gasket once while primary apart, new battery after 10 years service, rebuilt fork internals twice and recharged rear air shocks twice.

I did install an SE Comp in 2010 (new replacement going in very shortly), an HD 103" Kit with new S&S Cams, PR's and Lifters at 70,000kms, Head porting & dyno tune by Bean in 2015.

So as you can probably surmise, anything that starts life built correctly is well used but not abused can and will stay together!

[motorhogman]

Well, here we go.....there's always the exception.

Nope, all 07's are NOT that bad. Not all of them. Mine has 200,000Kms, has never soiled itself (leaked), there are no whisper marks on the inside of the cam plate at the pump but I am considering measuring runout for a gear drive upgrade and will be performing a leak down test for "Potty mouth"z n' grins later this winter.

Bought off the showroom floor May 2007, all "solo-rider" miles, not baby'd but not driven like a rental either. I have seen 100 MPH more than a few times but I don't whack the throttle like a bull's azz either.

I do 5,000km oil/filter changes faithfully (Mobile 1), Trans and Primary (Redline) fluid changes at about 20,000kms, perform all repairs promptly, original clutch plates, original shifter shaft/trans mainshaft and engine sprocket seals, replaced inner primary bearing, seal, gasket once while primary apart, new battery after 10 years service, rebuilt fork internals twice and recharged rear air shocks twice.

I did install an SE Comp in 2010 (new replacement going in very shortly), an HD 103" Kit with new S&S Cams, PR's and Lifters at 70,000kms, Head porting & dyno tune by Bean in 2015.

So as you can probably surmise, anything that starts life built correctly is well used but not abused can and will stay together!

Yea..Have to agree with you.  maintenance and how a machine is run will have everything to do with how well it performs and it's longevity.  I bought my 01 FLHT is Sept of 2000. I heard the horror stories about sumping, leaking oil pump o rings, cam chain tensioners destroying engines. security systems messing up... etc,.... 20 years later and 115,000 + mi I have to say this is probably the most dependable motor vehicle I have ever owned in my life. Sure I've replaced the tensioners and lifters a few times but have never had a break down or major problem of any kind..  OK  knocking on wood now...   seems every time i say something good about a machine something on it will break.. lol..

[koko3052]

Well, here we go.....there's always the exception.

Nope, all 07's are NOT that bad. Not all of them. Mine has 200,000Kms, has never soiled itself (leaked), there are no whisper marks on the inside of the cam plate at the pump but I am considering measuring runout for a gear drive upgrade and will be performing a leak down test for "Potty mouth"
z n' grins later this winter.

Bought off the showroom floor May 2007, all "solo-rider" miles, not baby'd but not driven like a rental either. I have seen 100 MPH more than a few times but I don't whack the throttle like a bull's azz either.

I do 5,000km oil/filter changes faithfully (Mobile 1), Trans and Primary (Redline) fluid changes at about 20,000kms, perform all repairs promptly, original clutch plates, original shifter shaft/trans mainshaft and engine sprocket seals, replaced inner primary bearing, seal, gasket once while primary apart, new battery after 10 years service, rebuilt fork internals twice and recharged rear air shocks twice.

I did install an SE Comp in 2010 (new replacement going in very shortly), an HD 103" Kit with new S&S Cams, PR's and Lifters at 70,000kms, Head porting & dyno tune by Bean in 2015.

So as you can probably surmise, anything that starts life built correctly is well used but not abused can and will stay together!

You have been fortunate, but to do gear drive at 200,000?? I wouldn't even bother to tear into it to measure that, because what do you hope to gain? Factory specs at that year were way past what gear drives take.

[Tacocaster]

Fortunate? Yeah, I suppose but I think "anal" is a more accurate description. Maybe you're being kind.

Gain? No real "gain" other than likely within the next riding year or shortly after I'll have to replace my S&S E-Z Start Cams (recently replaced 3rd set of cam tensioners.... again) and thought, "Y'know, it would be nice to put some miles on without the concern of tensioners wearing through again." Although the '07 materials are better than previous, they're kinda like prostate cancer....silent killers.

Factory specs were loose for '07 - granted, but mine is showing no signs of "wobble" so why not consider it? I have NO aspirations of a new(er) ride with all the love I've put into this ride.

[hattitude]

Kevin Baxter has been doing a series of teardowns and diagnostics on Harley engines. The links below are for 2007 Twin Cam. I found this interesting so I thought I'd share.

Part One: https://youtu.be/bSFeGU3yuPw

Part Two: https://youtu.be/vpg2YhfsU_4

I found the video very interesting...

I also watched all three M8 videos he referenced of an issue found in an M8 engine...

Short recap, he found a lot of metal shavings and small chunks all over the cam chest of an M8..

Since he found all that metal inside the engine, he mentioned how they were going to split the cases, clean everything up, replace the lifters, the cam plate, etc, etc...

He didn't mention the oil pan....

I've read several opinions about the inability to reliably flush the Twin Cam oil pans, due to the baffles. There have been many recommendations posted of just replacing the oil pan if metal debris is found in the engine...

That leads me to a question.... just curious since I've never worked on an M8...

Are the M8 oil pans significantly different in design from the Twin Cam oil pans, that they can be reliably flushed and cleaned out in a situation where metal is found in the engine cases...?? 

[Tacocaster]

I can't speak for the M8 oil pan but I can openly testify the TC Oil Pan must be removed to be thoroughly cleaned - I would NOT recommend flushing. There are places inside the pan where the baffle springs sit that are perfect spots for "chunks" to hide. Gold might be heavy enough to stay at the bottom of a pan but any metals in our oil pans will be happy to take another "run around the block" in our engines.

Chances are if you've found - or concerned about, metal fragments, you're very likely about to pull your engine out.  If not immediately...soon. From that point to complete TC oil pan removal, it's a pretty easy step. An engine repair without going that next step would be insanity.

Regarding the M8's oil pan which I am not familiar with, would HD actually allow an oil pan design that can be simply flushed? I'm asking. Naively, perhaps.

[rigidthumper]

Late model pans have the riveted on plate- easy enough to R&R, a little more work to remove the rivets/drill/tap/clean/bolt the plate back on.

[brent]

my 2007 ultra was great for 60000 miles until i hit a deer at 65 mph

[Barrett]

I looked through a bunch of the vids and couldn't find what I was looking for.
Does he have one of installing an engine? I saw him manhandle one taking it out but not going in.
Mine came out in pieces and it wasn't too bad. It's a bit heavy now that it is altogether.
I was just looking for tips that might make the job easier.

[sfmichael]

Kevin Baxter has been doing a series of teardowns and diagnostics on Harley engines. The links below are for 2007 Twin Cam. I found this interesting so I thought I'd share.

Part One: https://youtu.be/bSFeGU3yuPw

Part Two: https://youtu.be/vpg2YhfsU_4

thanks for sharing 

[itsafatboy]

02 was the best enginge , after that they started going down hill , i think when they started to worry about stock holders profit crap , i have a 01 softail but bottom end all different did the 116" jims kit and RR vented cam plate and gear drive no issues ,

[PoorUB]

Perceptions are funny. I feel the best TC I owned is my 2016 Limited.

[Admiral Akbar]

I don't agree with Baxters diagnosis even tho he's not too far off. He claims that the sumping was due to the scavenge pump not working with 0.008" runout.  IMO there have been stock pumps that can handle that runout.

Notice he says the wear in the one side of the cam plate is due to runout.  I would say it's due to misalignment.  Think about it. If there is runout in a crankshaft, wouldn't it rub the pinion bearing all the way around? This assumes that the pinion is center in the hole.  Since it os only on one side, it has to be from a misalignment.

Now look at the shaft, it has rub marks all the way around. That fact would be an indicator that the shaft was rubbing against the cam plate at one location in the plate and enough to make a mark all the way around.

Run out is like not the problem directly and the pump looks almost brand new.  The ghosting on the feed side is typical. It's on the suction side of the pump.  That side will rub the cam plate more than the pressure side of the pump.

So what cased the sumping?  IMO, heat from getting the motor hot and age (13 years old) making the crankcase O ring hard (it is a viton tho), and possibly the runout coupled with the misaligned plate casing the cam plate to shift.   The shifting would allow the crankcase O ring to loose seal and sumping to occur.

Baxter on the M8 never really stated what the issue was but IMO it was most likely due to the lifter feed passage not having the machining swarf blown out before assembly. It plugged up piston oilers and one of the lifters. As far as how some of it got above the lifters, it was likely noticed and some of it blown out during assembly.

[sfmichael]

I don't agree with Baxters diagnosis even tho he's not too far off. He claims that the sumping was due to the scavenge pump not working with 0.008" runout.  IMO there have been stock pumps that can handle that runout.

Notice he says the wear in the one side of the cam plate is due to runout. I would say it's due to misalignment. Think about it. If there is runout in a crankshaft, wouldn't it rub the pinion bearing all the way around? This assumes that the pinion is center in the hole.  Since it os only on one side, it has to be from a misalignment.

Now look at the shaft, it has rub marks all the way around. That fact would be an indicator that the shaft was rubbing against the cam plate at one location in the plate and enough to make a mark all the way around.

Run out is like not the problem directly and the pump looks almost brand new.  The ghosting on the feed side is typical. It's on the suction side of the pump.  That side will rub the cam plate more than the pressure side of the pump.

So what cased the sumping?  IMO, heat from getting the motor hot and age (13 years old) making the crankcase O ring hard (it is a viton tho), and possibly the runout coupled with the misaligned plate casing the cam plate to shift.   The shifting would allow the crankcase O ring to loose seal and sumping to occur.

Baxter on the M8 never really stated what the issue was but IMO it was most likely due to the lifter feed passage not having the machining swarf blown out before assembly. It plugged up piston oilers and one of the lifters. As far as how some of it got above the lifters, it was likely noticed and some of it blown out during assembly.

that was my thought also - he's a pretty sharp guy but there were a few remarks I didn't agree with
overall pretty good vid tho