Conical valve Springs anyone?

[thumper 823]

Any here chase the better way? It has as many directions as people have opinions.
Parasitical drag is a bad bad thing and I am always looking for a way to get rid of some of it.
I have been reading up on the tapered conical springs and want to check on those opinions of what your results have been.
Comp Cam makes generic sets and I don't think I am smart enough to choose just on valve size and spring height as there are so many other numbers to consider besides "installed Ht "  and over the "nose"  numbers.
The other paragraph here is- this is actually a touring bike and real race parts usually do not last long.
  This engine has been apart enough times to use velcro, but I would like to get 20 K out of it this round.
  Right now there is super HVY duty caveman springs in this.
It was the only option I had on some given Sunday with the Sun going dwn.
But now I could install a propper set and cycle them through  - run em slow enough to break them in.

[Don D]

I use them under the right circumstances. 

[thumper 823]

Expound on that please, and what are their limitations?
Insofar I have read they are lighter, more progressive less prone to bounce
Who is your source?
thanx

[Don D]

I port heads. I use them if the application suits. I change EVOs to 7mm valves. If you have a 5500 rpm motor I dont bother, I use late model stock hd beehives or if budget constraints don't allow I use stock springs,  assuming a bolt in cam. Floating valves? Not very common on a EVO or twin cam. Cam choice and components weight drive decisions. Are you spinning this motor of yours how high?

[thumper 823]

Is your other screen name Tall Terry?
We have all ported heads I even got so mad at myself I hired a big-name outfit thinking they knew the magic.
For LOTS of MONEY.
They would not do what I had done !!!!!!
They are now back over get welded up...again.

Now to the point,  IDC what you do for a living, I am looking for information on conicals

[turboprop]

Is your other screen name Tall Terry?
We have all ported heads I even got so mad at myself I hired a big-name outfit thinking they knew the magic.
For LOTS of MONEY.
They would not do what I had done !!!!!!
They are now back over get welded up...again.

Now to the point,  IDC what you do for a living, I am looking for information on conicals

Curious, aside from asking on this and possibly other harley forums, where else have you looked for information on conical valve springs?

Big difference between asking on a harley forum for clinical data to be served up to you in a new thread that you created and going to credible sources, like the various OEM's or the SAE.

[thumper 823]

delete

[Don D]

Look on my site on this forum, there is a link to a video by David Vizard.
Those are beehive springs not conicals you have a link to.

[thumper 823]

Crap.........you are correct
thanx

[Rockout Rocker Products]

I have no idea how conicals would do as a valve spring but from making springs for a living for decades a couple of thoughts...

The main advantage of conical springs (again, not talking valve springs) is they can pack more steel into a given space. Because the coils don't rest directly on top of each other the wire can be thicker with the same stacked height as cylindrical. They also tend to be less affected by harmonics as the coils are different sizes.

Interestingly, unless conical springs are wound with a progressive pitch they will have a progressive spring rate... sometimes very much so. Progressively wound conicals are a fair amount more expensive & can be hard to match in sets.

[aswracing]

A little over four years ago, I was busy developing our 120+hp package for Sportsters and having fits trying to keep the valvetrain under control with street friendly spring pressures. I read all the grandiose claims on the conicals and how they could support more rpm at a given pressure, and although skeptical, I thought what the hell, I'm desperate, I'll give them a try ...



Lo and behold, 8Krpm with 184lbs on the seat, nary a sign of float or bounce. This on Comp Cams 7256's, 2.020/1.630 stainless valves, 7mm stems, and Ti retainers from Ferrea. I was impressed. All of our high rpm packages have been getting them ever since.

Just a word of warning:



The hat seal with the 7256 as shown above can cause spring failure, because it can rub. Use the separate spring seat locator & seal from AV&V.

[Ohio HD]

A little over four years ago, I was busy developing our 120+hp package for Sportsters and having fits trying to keep the valvetrain under control with street friendly spring pressures. I read all the grandiose claims on the conicals and how they could support more rpm at a given pressure, and although skeptical, I thought what the hell, I'm desperate, I'll give them a try ...



Lo and behold, 8Krpm with 184lbs on the seat, nary a sign of float or bounce. This on Comp Cams 7256's, 2.020/1.630 stainless valves, 7mm stems, and Ti retainers from Ferrea. I was impressed. All of our high rpm packages have been getting them ever since.

Just a word of warning:


The hat seal with the 7256 as shown above can cause spring failure, because it can rub. Use the separate spring seat locator & seal from AV&V.

Good info, especially the warning.     

[Don D]

All of our high rpm packages have been getting them ever since

Exactly what I said. But how many long stroke big twin EVOs are turning 8000? Ham and eggers are closer to 6,000 and a whole gammut of springs will do that.

[thumper 823]

From what I have read be it you have high RPM platform or not,  they as said, have little bounce, lighter spring pressure, which equal less parasitic drag.
Less seat and guide wear, etc etc,  all great attributes!
The trouble with some of us is- we all envision what "we" are doing and cant figure out what the other guy needs this for.
From what I have read these conical springs will become a standard issue for most applications be it a race engine or not.
I was running 50 deg seats with high caveman valve springs.
Now with less spring and seat pressure with conicals that can be improved upon too!

[aswracing]

All of our high rpm packages have been getting them ever since

Exactly what I said. But how many long stroke big twin EVOs are turning 8000? Ham and eggers are closer to 6,000 and a whole gammut of springs will do that.

I absolutely agree. Massive overkill for a 6000rpm motor.

[thumper 823]

You guys think a little differently than i do, we are all different?
If I could run a springless valve train system it would be done.
Right now I have less than 10lbs of ring drag.
For those that don't know it that is a HUGE little number.
Anything to free up the moving parts is a step in the right direction.
Chasing the "steetable " 1.44 NA per cube is my passion.

[turboprop]

You never answered my question about where else besides this forum (and apparently the S&S catalog) for information about conical valve springs. I am also curious to know what type of information you are looking for?

[thumper 823]

Why?
Snowmobile race forum/Porche forum.
I don't have all the information ..yet.
What I really want is springless ...several ways of doing it.
But ..I think that that conversion kit is a couple of years away.

[aswracing]

You guys think a little differently than i do, we are all different?
If I could run a springless valve train system it would be done.
Right now I have less than 10lbs of ring drag.
For those that don't know it that is a HUGE little number.
Anything to free up the moving parts is a step in the right direction.
Chasing the "steetable " 1.44 NA per cube is my passion.

But compressing a spring is not a loss of power in and of itself. A spring stores energy. What you spend compressing it, you get back when it expands again. Your losses are limited to the frictional losses only, which are dissipated in the form of heat and are pretty damn small in the case of a single wound spring.

Bottom line for me, and shops like HDSP and others, is that you don't go wasting the customer's money. In fact, I'm sure I speak for other shops when I say we try damn hard to be a good steward of the customer's money, selling things he actually needs and steering him away from things that don't do anything for him (believe me, there's tons of stuff like that). A set of conicals and Ti retainers is expensive. It's roughly 4X the cost of the factory beehive spring pack, and the factory beehive spring pack is more than adequate for a large population of applications, particularly Big Twin applications which don't twist that high. For applications that exceed the capability of that spring pack, there are a whole host of options that will get the job done for far less than the price of conicals and Ti retainers. So we don't go putting conicals and Ti retainers into applications unless they actually need it. In our case, it's largely big valve head services on XL heads. Those are typically going into high rpm applications.

[Don D]

 
Here are some springs that work great and don't break the bank.
They go in at about 145# on the seat, Kibblewhite Duals for 7mm valve stem.

[thumper 823]

 aswracing- Thanks for sharing the part number.
As per your part number,- the conicals are about 25 bucks each?

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-7256-16

IF I have all the chickens,  spirals,  Parrales, and longitudes lined up correctly.... that aint nothin compared to
the elves I have dwn in there shoveling the coal!
That is no more any other set. ( or elves)

[aswracing]

aswracing- Thanks for sharing the part number.
As per your part number,- the conicals are about 25 bucks each?
That is no more any other set. ( or elves)

We get $21 apiece for them, times 4 is $84. But by the time you add in the Ti retainers, locks, and seat locators, the complete spring pack totals $197. Ti retainers ain't cheap. The factory spring pack can be had for about $50, including retainers and locks.

[thumper 823]

Not to brag-
But with all the other stuff inside this, that cost is not worth mentioning.
I have tried 3 other spring sets, one was Beehive.
(I sent you an email yesterday)
PM sent just now - 9:53  -- 12/16/ 20020

[Hillside Motorcycle]

We use a tremendous amount of beehive springs in almost all our heads..........we happen to be Goodson's largest HD account, and those folks sell one of our handy cylinder head fixtures in their catalog also.(we designed/manufactured it at our 4500 sq/ft facility)
Comp Cams, and Kibblewhite, both used in Evo, T/C, and M8 applications daily.

[thumper 823]

Forums can be great for education- or for rants, whichever.
Your Mother wears combat boots etc.?
LOL
Someone said to go look at youtube site David Vizarrd?  Or something.?
I do appreciate that!
He has a LOT of information!
I recommend everyone go to school and watch this!
H.S.!  to the 3rd power!

The harmonics vibration is night and day less than with standard springs,
a lot less than beehive springs.
The bounce is gone!
People are slow to change, to the point there is are some out there
STILL arguing the merits and virtues of Dino oil still!

The price of these is no worse than the last three sets I have bought.
For sure these conicals will be going over to Swains Coatings too for their magic.
The industry marches ever forward, Pay attn and keep up, right?
But some still march backward...I predict these will be pretty much standard fair in the future or unless they figure out
a springless system.   ( I know several exist)

[Don D]

I agree about progress but when you are fighting physics that will win every time. In this case for the EVO big twin that is stroke / mean piston speed. So everything can be right on the cutting edge and you still hit that constraint. That is improved on the XL and some other things as well.

[thumper 823]

Well..I know nothing and can prove it most of the time ..
But as one runs steeper valve seats ...
Then-
Less spring pressure and less bounce i would have to say os a good thing.?

I try to get 20 K out of top ends. It had been the university of hard knocks.
That equals a new way of doing it about every three years.
This is the last cigar for NA.
The next round will be turbo..but not quite like what everyone else does it.

[thumper 823]

QUESTION - What is the TBO on these things?  (how long do they last)

Or-
About how many  Miles B4 failures?,  Or are they pretty much like most other springs for endurance?
thanx all

[thumper 823]

Some good information

[Buglet]

     Thanks for the link.

[thumper 823]

Sure.
I have watched several  high speed valve train videows  and the two most impressive thing to m me is-
1,-  The amount of valve stem wobble with regular valves compared to the conical,  !  HS!    That nasty back in Fourth motion is doing my confidence no good and the wear on a guide! WOW
2,- the harmonics-  all most gone (if it is harmonics)  the springs are much more tame when closing the valve .

I see no reason to install other hipo springs after these Videows !

The price is no differnet then my last set of brand X

[thumper 823]

aswracing- Thanks for sharing the part number.
As per your part number,- the conicals are about 25 bucks each?
That is no more any other set. ( or elves)

We get $21 apiece for them, times 4 is $84. But by the time you add in the Ti retainers, locks, and seat locators, the complete spring pack totals $197. Ti retainers ain't cheap. The factory spring pack can be had for about $50, including retainers and locks.

Being I bought these from you  -

(and they are pretty! )


May I ask what do YOU use for
installed Ht, seat, and over the nose pressure with these?
Thanx!

[Hilly13]

I can't understand the resistance to using these conical springs, a better mouse trap is a better mouse trap, the old one goes in the bin and the new goes into service, I see no downside to these, the only argument that holds water is those that want duals for back up piece of mind but given the conical eliminates resonance as a failure factor that looses much of its merit, ok so all the odds and sods associated with installing them are dearer and or harder to source you would think that would change as demand ramped up, what am I missing?

[Don D]

Resistance, not from me, I use and sell them. That said I can think of better ways to get an EVO to perform. Valve float is not on the radar unless you are running some cams with crazy lobes. Hammer Performance runs them in a 8000 rpm XL with complementary parts that all work together. and make big power, the assembly does not the springs. There is a place for everything in these motors but just because you can buy it does not mean it adds any value to the assembly.  I put these springs in CVO110 heads on big twin cams with 7mm lightweight valves that are 2.120" X 1.65".  They work well but so did the beehives and so did the lightweight duals that preceded them.

[thumper 823]

As i have said b4 -We all presume the other guy is doing the same thing as me or us.
Nothing prolly is farther from the truth in my case...
Albeit the information and test are out there,  few use it.
  I  don't use 45 deg seats so a lessor seat pressure for my application is a big huge deal.
   Read joe Mondello and perhaps Smokey.